Do you think the consumption of meat is ethical correct?

[mastress of procrastinate]

I known this is a controversial topic, so I wish everyone to stay civil in this debate.

Opponents of meat consumption argue that the production of meat and other animal products has a negative environmental impact, that modern factory farming is very cruel and that taste is not a legitimation to cage and/or kill animals.

Supporters argue that it is tasty, that it is part of their culture and that vegetarianism/veganism may come with malnourishment.

I don't add points like "we are on top of the food chain" since we buy in supermarkets in most of the cases and thus are not participating in a food chain. If we hunted our meat, we would. Another point supporters bring is that we would have canine teeth, which in fact we don't have. I probably sound biased (I'm a vegan), but our anatomy is more on the omnivorous site with strong signs pointing towards a mainly plant-based diet. Those pointy teeth we have are rather cute compared to the teeth of true carnivores like felines. Our teeth are very similar to those of other apes like chimps and gorillas, who live almost exclusively vegan except for insects. Bringing up one of these points in a debate don't seem valid. We in fact can not kill other animals with our jars, which true carnivores can.

I myself lived vegetarian over a year before I decided to go vegan. My main concerns are, as mentioned above, the environmental impact of raising kettle and livestock and the practices under which most of the meat is produced nowadays. I understand where the other site is coming from since I ate meat, dairy and eggs most of my life. And, to clear up common misconceptions, I am not malnourished and have plenty yummy food to now on. Of course following a vegan diet is not suitable for everyone, people living in rural areas may have difficulties purchasing vegan products and people with certain food allergies would have difficulties only consuming plant protein.

However, other than taking are of my b12-intake (which I do with marmite and vegan products like soy and rice milk, non-dairy yoghurt and vegan pudding which are all enriched in vitamin b12) I don't have to plan to eat healthy. Iron is found in sugar beet syrup, red beet, nuts, some fruits chick peas and leafy greens. Calcium is found in tofu, again leafy greens, mineral water and nuts and grains. I just add this inb4 any questions regarding my health.

So, what is your opinion on meat?

I think the only legitimate way of eating meat is hunting and fishing, and eggs and dairy from local, super-small scale farms where you can be 100% sure the animals are treated right.

[Anjin-san]

Love it.

[beetleron]

yes

[mastress of procrastinate]

yes

Care to elaborate?

[mastress of procrastinate]

Somewhat relevant and I enjoyed reading that: http://logs.omegle.com/e9736e According to this bloke, anyone living in their shit has to be slaughtered.

[Lake of Shadows]

Yes, I eat meat, and I don't see it as ethically or morally incorrect. I have a different opinion on a lot of factory farming, whether it's animal or plant factory farming.

I think a lot of folks would be better off if they raised their own food or traded/bought/sold their food at the local level, as would the animals we eat.

However, I'm realistic enough to know that's not likely to happen any time soon. There are too many people to feed and too much money to be made for us to return to an agrarian society. (The fact that people elsewhere are starving, whether due to famine or war, while many of us elsewhere are wasting and/or throwing food away is a different topic).

[mastress of procrastinate]

Yes, I eat meat, and I don't see it as ethically or morally incorrect. I have a different opinion on a lot of factory farming, whether it's animal or plant factory farming.

I think a lot of folks would be better off if they raised their own food or traded/bought/sold their food at the local level, as would the animals we eat.

However, I'm realistic enough to know that's not likely to happen any time soon. There are too many people to feed and too much money to be made for us to return to an agrarian society. (The fact that people elsewhere are starving, whether due to famine or war, while many of us elsewhere are wasting and/or throwing food away is a different topic).

Actually more people could be fed if the land is used for agriculture instead of farming animals. A steak demands a lot more resources than a veggie stir fry, and the rain forest is being logged down for kettle. Either the cows are fed with large amounts of food that is edible to humans, too, or they need large fields of grassland. The enormous demand of meat raise prices for corn and grains to feed the livestock, which are a basic staple in the diet of many people in developing countries who no longer can afford their food anymore. A lot could be done by eating less meat. But of course, factory farming is just devastating. I try to buy local and seasonal all of the time.

Not to mention how much water and energy needs to be used to convert a cow into meat.

[alinds]

Don't kid yourself, Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about.

[Sagittarius Rising]

Hi Mistress, I too am a vegan but it is because of health reasons as my body does not handle either meat or dairy well at all. Once I switched to a vegan diet my overall health greatly improved, I stopped having colds and strep every year, and my energy level went up. Many studies have been done regarding diet and cancer and I find the information mindblowing to say the least. Several studies published in both the New England Journal of Medicine and Lancet have proven a vegan diet reduces the likelihood of cancers of the digestive tract (esophageal, stomach, intestinal, and colon) by over 90%. Also, a vegan diet all but eliminates the possibility of prostate cancer in men. Vegans rarely suffer from diabetes or heat disease and if they are balancing their diet correctly, look just like any healthy meat eater. Those are my reasons for my lifestyle choice. I wish I could claim the high ground here but I must admit, if my body could process meat and dairy without distress I would probably still be consuming animal products...they are just so damn yummy!

Anyway, to answer you question (talk about the long way around the barn!!!), yes, it is unethical to consume animal products. I make the comparison as thus: If it is ok for humans to eat animals, why do we get so upset when a lion or bear eats a human in the wild? Always seemed a bit hypocritical to me. Even when I ate meat I always would laugh when some poor bloke became lunch for some hungry predator. Tit for tat.

[Northstar]

Hi Mistress, I too am a vegan but it is because of health reasons as my body does not handle either meat or dairy well at all. Once I switched to a vegan diet my overall health greatly improved, I stopped having colds and strep every year, and my energy level went up. Many studies have been done regarding diet and cancer and I find the information mindblowing to say the least. Several studies published in both the New England Journal of Medicine and Lancet have proven a vegan diet reduces the likelihood of cancers of the digestive tract (esophageal, stomach, intestinal, and colon) by over 90%. Also, a vegan diet all but eliminates the possibility of prostate cancer in men. Vegans rarely suffer from diabetes or heat disease and if they are balancing their diet correctly, look just like any healthy meat eater. Those are my reasons for my lifestyle choice. I wish I could claim the high ground here but I must admit, if my body could process meat and dairy without distress I would probably still be consuming animal products...they are just so damn yummy!

Anyway, to answer you question (talk about the long way around the barn!!!), yes, it is unethical to consume animal products. I make the comparison as thus: If it is ok for humans to eat animals, why do we get so upset when a lion or bear eats a human in the wild? Always seemed a bit hypocritical to me. Even when I ate meat I always would laugh when some poor bloke became lunch for some hungry predator. Tit for tat.

You must have a mental imbalance, to think it is funny when a person is killed by an animal. People like you make me laugh, just because you live your life different than the norm puts you above everyone else. Maybe one day you will become lunch for a hungry animal and you will have whole new outlook....but I doubt it.

[TypeO]

Don't kid yourself, Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about.

lulz. Troy McClure FTW!!!

Studies have shown strict adherence to a vegan diet also dramatically increases the likelihood of becoming an insufferable, judgmental, self-righteous prick.

I have often found these studies to be eerily accurate.

DISCLAIMER: This is only a joke, and any resemblance to forum members who have posted or have yet to post in this thread is unintentional and purely coincidental.

[SteveAJones]

Don't kid yourself, Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about.

I think Dennis Leary says it best (below) when he says "meat is murder, and murder tastes pretty Goddamn good, doesn't it? Yes it does".

[kaiser]

To answer the original question as if I think the consumption of meat is ethical, most definately. Do I think the practices of the meat industry are ethical I'd say it's compromised.

With the first, simply it comes down to how one defines ethics as mine will not be anothers nor do I think it should necassarily be so for another to share mine. It's a choice, a legal choice I might add. Death comes to every thing we consume, it is part of the cycle of life. If I were hungry enough I'd eat you, ethics would go right out the window for my personal survival as the Soviets did amongst their own during WW2 as they were starving eating out portioned rations of sawdust by their goverment. They soon started eating their dead then went from eating their dead to actually killing children or the weak in villages to eat so they could survive. Survival is a brutal thing as is the whole basis of consumption. So ethics? We're fortunate to not have to eat one another to survive, we're fortunate that we live in a time when we don't have to go out & hunt if need be ( & quite frankly that's not a reality for most people who live in cities, for people who have a physical disability, etc), & we're fortunate to have food of all kinds readily available. Killing a carrot is no less a death it's just how we view it as it is ultimately a death. I'm perfectly fine that there are creatures out there that find me tasty, that's there design. I enjoy bacon, so I'm going to eat it. It wouldn't matter to me if the bacon provider was bludgeoned with a blunt instrument anymore than if it where euthanised or if a piano fell on it, I want that bacon, sometimes on a sandwich with cucumbers. I say do what you feel is right in the accepted boundries of society, it's your life, you only have one so live it as you may one day end up as somethings dinner yourself but be fine with that outcome if it comes to that as it is the survival of the fittest after all & both science & religion support that.

[Rock Historian]

Care to elaborate?

You might be stepping into uncharted territory from another demention by asking this of him Mastress...good luck

[paul carruthers]

I love meat. I believe that if I wasn't meant to eat meat, I wouldn't have been born with teeth. All this meat talk is making me hungry for a nice double cheeseburger. Mmmmm, meat...

[mastress of procrastinate]

I love meat. I believe that if I wasn't meant to eat meat, I wouldn't have been born with teeth. All this meat talk is making me hungry for a nice double cheeseburger. Mmmmm, meat...

Teeth? All mammals have teeth, does that mean that horses or cows are carnivores?

[dazedcat]

Animals are our servants and our fuel. That's just the way it is.

Nice lol.

Yes indeedy I eat meat and I don't blink about doing so. I just use moderation like I do with everything else in my life. The term "morality" is thrown carelessly around like everything else is in modern life, isn't it.

[mastress of procrastinate]

To answer the original question as if I think the consumption of meat is ethical, most definately. Do I think the practices of the meat industry are ethical I'd say it's compromised.

With the first, simply it comes down to how one defines ethics as mine will not be anothers nor do I think it should necassarily be so for another to share mine. It's a choice, a legal choice I might add. Death comes to every thing we consume, it is part of the cycle of life. If I were hungry enough I'd eat you, ethics would go right out the window for my personal survival as the Soviets did amongst their own during WW2 as they were starving eating out portioned rations of sawdust by their goverment. They soon started eating their dead then went from eating their dead to actually killing children or the weak in villages to eat so they could survive. Survival is a brutal thing as is the whole basis of consumption. So ethics? We're fortunate to not have to eat one another to survive, we're fortunate that we live in a time when we don't have to go out & hunt if need be ( & quite frankly that's not a reality for most people who live in cities, for people who have a physical disability, etc), & we're fortunate to have food of all kinds readily available. Killing a carrot is no less a death it's just how we view it as it is ultimately a death. I'm perfectly fine that there are creatures out there that find me tasty, that's there design. I enjoy bacon, so I'm going to eat it. It wouldn't matter to me if the bacon provider was bludgeoned with a blunt instrument anymore than if it where euthanised or if a piano fell on it, I want that bacon, sometimes on a sandwich with cucumbers. I say do what you feel is right in the accepted boundries of society, it's your life, you only have one so live it as you may one day end up as somethings dinner yourself but be fine with that outcome if it comes to that as it is the survival of the fittest after all & both science & religion support that.

But isn't there a difference between the death of a carrot and the death of an animal? Plants aren't sentient. And I might add that if a death isn't necessary, does it make it a justified death? The examples of cannibalism in extreme situations are something entirely different than deciding to eat animals just for the taste. I myself wonder if eating animals for survival is not necessary, does that make it justifiable to cage and kill them?

And furthermore, if we want to eat them, does it have to be under such conditions? If people ate less meat and bought local, we wouldn't enter the issue of factory farming. I must admit that I find taste to be a poor excuse to let animals suffer from the cruelties of factory farming.

Regarding survival of the fittest - that principle doesn't work. We don't hunt and thus don't participate in a competition for food. Farming food instead has nothing to do with survival of the fittest. It is not a sign of superiority if we cage animals and then kill them, since they are stripped off the chance to fight back or flee.

[ally]

Along with campfire veggies and a tossed salad, I bbq'd a very nice rib eye steak for dinner last night. Don't get me wrong, I love my veggies but my plate would have been a little empty without that steak and I'd have had to eat at least double the veggies to satisfy my appitite

[mastress of procrastinate]

Nobody had any problem with meat eating before ethics were invented. In fact, if I could, I'd eat ethics too.

What I do find unethical is vegan or vegetarian parents bringing up their kids to be vegans or vegetarians, without allowing them to make their own judgement, uninfluenced by all the 'poor little piggy-wiggy' shit. I think parents who do this should be strapped down and forced to eat raw offal. It's on a par with religious fundamentalists inculcating their kids with their chosen variant of mind-rot.

Most vegans/vegetarians I've met have been bitter, unhappy attention-seekers. I've even met one who had secret KFC binges. When my mate (her boyfriend) came home unexpectedly and caught her in flagrante, she turned hostile and bitched at him for invading her personal space. 'Uh, what about that poor chicken's personal space?', quoth he - at which, she broke down, wept uncontrollably, and confessed that this surreptitious carnivory had been going on since her childhood, when her parents had forced a meatless existence on her. Go figure.

Animals are our servants and our fuel. That's just the way it is.

Actually, in some parts of the world consumption of meat has always been criticised, many practising Hindus don't eat meat for religious reasons. Also some philosophers discussed the issues regarding eating animals. There just has been a recent increase in discussions.

Also I don't know how many vegetarians/vegans you know, many of my friends and co-students follow such a diet and are most definitely not bitter.

[JiMiHeNdRiX1967]

meat is the best.

bbaaaaaaaccccooooooonnnnnnn

[Rock Historian]

But isn't there a difference between the death of a carrot and the death of an animal? Plants aren't sentient. And I might add that if a death isn't necessary, does it make it a justified death? The examples of cannibalism in extreme situations are something entirely different than deciding to eat animals just for the taste. I myself wonder if eating animals for survival is not necessary, does that make it justifiable to cage and kill them?

And furthermore, if we want to eat them, does it have to be under such conditions? If people ate less meat and bought local, we wouldn't enter the issue of factory farming. I must admit that I find taste to be a poor excuse to let animals suffer from the cruelties of factory farming.

Regarding survival of the fittest - that principle doesn't work. We don't hunt and thus don't participate in a competition for food. Farming food instead has nothing to do with survival of the fittest. It is not a sign of superiority if we cage animals and then kill them, since they are stripped off the chance to fight back or flee.

From an animal rights standpoint, I back you and understand your frustration 100%. However, if you are asking the question if it's right or wrong to eat meat, I think that is one of the reasons that certain animals are on this earth to begin with. Choosing to eat it is your own decision, but I don't think it's morally wrong.

Several members here that know me on a more personal level (and I'll put it out there) know that I'm an animal lover. I think the things they do to dogs and cats in Spain (they poison/eliminate them in some cities to make their dwellings appear "cleaner" to the visiting public) is a disgrace. What they do to dogs and cats In Taiwan, Indonesia, Korea and other countries in the East is downright sickening. I don't see how they could eat a cat or dog. But that's their way of life ......

I have these animals as pets. They have a personality, feelings and share love just like you and I- trust me. I'm sure ALL animals do.

I think it depends on the amount of attachment /connection/respect and understanding that you have with a certain type of animal (or in some cases a part of religion) that would have you either want to consider it worthy of being your next meal, a life-long pet and part of your family or just something not to bother with.

[TypeO]

Vincent: Want some bacon?

Jules: No man, I don't eat pork.

Vincent: Are you Jewish?

Jules: Nah, I ain't Jewish, I just don't dig on swine, that's all.

Vincent: Why not?

Jules: Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals.

Vincent: Bacon tastes gooood. Pork chops taste gooood.

Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfucker. Pigs sleep and root in shit. That's a filthy animal. I ain't eat nothin' that ain't got sense enough to disregard its own feces.

Vincent: How about a dog? Dogs eats its own feces.

Jules: I don't eat dog either.

Vincent: Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?

Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

Vincent: Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?

Jules: Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charming motherfuckin' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

[TypeO]

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber.

And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself.

And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.

And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.

One thousand, nay, a million voices full of fear.

And terror possessed me then.

And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"

And the angel said unto me, "These... are the cries... of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!

You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is... the holocaust."

And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared,

"Hear me now, I have seen the light!

They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!

Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!"

Can I get an amen?

Can I get a hallelujah?

Thank you Jesus.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on...

This is necessary.

[Rock Historian]

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber.

And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself.

And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.

And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.

One thousand, nay, a million voices full of fear.

And terror possessed me then.

And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"

And the angel said unto me, "These... are the cries... of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!

You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is... the holocaust."

And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared,

"Hear me now, I have seen the light!

They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!

Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!"

Can I get an amen?

Can I get a hallelujah?

Thank you Jesus.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on...

This is necessary.

Maynards thoughts would be devastating here.