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According to Jimmy's laser tech, Plant tried to kick a sparkler that someone threw off the stage, rather than falling off the stage it fell into the flashpot and ignited it while Page was standing over it.

The show is a culmination of the band's state, the atmosphere of the crowd, "technical" glitches...sort of a perfect storm. Tempe is interesting to look at given what would happen that weekend in Oakland.

That makes more sense, I always figured Jimmy was in a 'haze' and forgot to move out of the way, and blamed the poor stagehand lol.

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I think Tempe's Achilles wins. They were all completely off for nearly four minutes, until the solo. Even after the solo Plant comes in early.

Bonzo is unrelenting. Usually you'll hear him hesitate a little so that everyone can figure out where they're going, but here he just powers on. At the end of the song, Page is doing the outro and Bonzo just keeps going.

I'd give anything for footage of Achilles.

I agree, usually when they mess up they get it back together pretty quickly, but... not here! :lol: It's a pretty complex song and they played it fast, probably very difficult to get it back once it started going off the rails.

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^It's the same with Kashmir. Once you get lost in that it's incredibly difficult to get back. It didn't help that JPJ couldn't remember the song...

Even now I have a piece of paper I stuck on top of the Mellotron which says: `Kashmir' - remember the coda!" - John Paul Jones, in Guitar Player, July 1977


:P

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I know that here we are concentrating on brief(-5 min)fu..ups. But really, Willoughby, I have heard the shaky San Diego and Tempe

shows, but I don't own them and it was a long time ago. The 75' NC show is not even comparable to the rest of 75', and there are

some disconnects in HMMT that are really ugly, among much listless playing even from Bonzo. But knowing and hearing some of

the incomparable shambles of 77', I want to hear all I can of the Tempe and San Diego shows.Also wasn't

there only like 45 min of Tempe ??

Edited by Mithril46

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And if I sa$%^&*()..... false start to WIAWSNB from the BBC April 71 complete broadcast.

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I know that here we are concentrating on brief(-5 min)fu..ups. But really, Willoughby, I have heard the shaky San Diego and Tempe

shows, but I don't own them and it was a long time ago. The 75' NC show is not even comparable to the rest of 75', and there are

some disconnects in HMMT that are really ugly, among much listless playing even from Bonzo. But knowing and hearing some of

the incomparable shambles of 77', I want to hear all I can of the Tempe and San Diego shows.Also wasn't

there only like 45 min of Tempe ??

Here's the whole Tempe, it's a hour and a half

I dont have the 75 NC show, I'm going to look for it now.

Edited by Glyn

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its funny this thread got started because I was just reading this article about a failed show due to john bonham which links back to this forum.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/john-bonham-collapses-nuremburg-1980/

Unfortunately, Bonham was unable to continue and the gig was scrapped. The band would officially claim that Bonham was sick because he had eaten too many bananas earlier in the day. However, fans on Led Zeppelin’s forum who claim to have been in attendance suggest otherwise, saying that he was drunk and knocking over his cymbals.

Read More: 35 Years Ago: John Bonham Collapses During Led Zeppelin Concert | http://ultimateclassicrock.com/john-bonham-collapses-nuremburg-1980/?trackback=tsmclip

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I know that here we are concentrating on brief(-5 min)fu..ups. But really, Willoughby, I have heard the shaky San Diego and Tempe

shows, but I don't own them and it was a long time ago. The 75' NC show is not even comparable to the rest of 75', and there are

some disconnects in HMMT that are really ugly, among much listless playing even from Bonzo. But knowing and hearing some of

the incomparable shambles of 77', I want to hear all I can of the Tempe and San Diego shows.Also wasn't

there only like 45 min of Tempe ??

Nah, I think Greensboro gets a bad rap partly because of the recording. If it was a Millard tape like San Diego, it wouldn't be nearly as maligned IMO.

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I can't really think of anything really bad about Bonham

San Diego 19-6-77 takes the fucking cake as far as Bonham having an off night goes (he was ill and the band really should have cancelled and rescheduled), but he's pretty underwhelming on June 25 in L.A. and May 28 in Landover, where, on top of a lethargic performance, he bores the crowd to tears with a thirty five minute drum solo that in itself is an exercise in endurance...

Well for Jones, missing a cue in Kashmir on 6/23/77 in L.A. and throwing the rest of them off for a good minute.

Here's another, 1977-06-07 Kashmir. Page sounds out of tune for the whole song. They get into trouble around 6:18.

"Kashmir" tended to give the band a fair bit of grief in 1977 and 1980. Note that the 1975 versions are just about flawless...

As a whole show believe it or not most Zepxperts suggest 1/29/75 , where supposedly the band missed a flight or something and

consequently nobody got any sleep. This show is from Greensboro, NC, it is widely available(or was), and is high quality sound.

Yeah, as others have said Greensboro isn't that bad- as a performance it isn't anything to write home about but we really have Luis Rey to thank for spreading the "Greensboro '75 Is Zeppelin's Worst Performance" legend. The aforementioned San Diego. Tempe or 28-5-77 in Landover are all much worse than Greensboro, but for me the Blue Ribbon winner for Zep's worst performance is Hannover 24-6-80. Plant's shitty attitude completely ruins the performance worse than a smacked out Page or under the weather Bonham ever could.

.Also wasn't there only like 45 min of Tempe ??

The Tempe recording (as posted in the You Tube link upthread) is only the last two thirds of the show, the section from "The Song Remains The Same" to "Ten Years Gone" either wasn't recorded or doesn't circulate (and until I remastered that recording a few years ago all the circulating copies ran slow and sounded like shit...eventually my remaster got bootlegged and somehow ended up the 'definitive version' :lol: ) From all accounts even the opening songs were shaky- for example Robert Plant had to switch on Page's guitar effects during the solo in "Over The Hills And Far Away". But we'll never know for sure unless an alternate Tempe recording ever rears it's ugly head...

Edited by Nutrocker

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Funny story how your version became the definitive version. I shudder to think what the boot sounded like before your "remastering".

I was once part of a Zep forum where the boss/founder was a guy named Bud who got ill and I still am unsure what became of him.

Anyway the forum had a live/boots review where the reviewer in charge actually came straight out and said," Forget 1980, even the

better performances will disappoint even the most fervent fan". Of course each show was reviewed, but you always got the impression

that the 80' tour was basically one HUGE mistake and was really for Zep completists only.

I don't agree entirely, but someone mentioned Plant's attitude and Hanover, well Plant seemed sarcastic thruout the tour.

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I don't agree entirely, but someone mentioned Plant's attitude and Hanover, well Plant seemed sarcastic thruout the tour.

Yeah, Plant had a bit of an attitude throughout the 1980 tour but in Hannover he was bordering on unprofessional with his comments about Hannover being a "Fuckin' horrible" place to play and whatnot. I mean, okay, we get it, Robert: you didn't really want to do the tour in the first place and mainly stuck it out with Zeppelin after Karac's death for John Bonham's sake because he was yer best friend but I'm sure Bonzo was the kind of guy who really would have understood if you didn't want to do it anymore. Generally speaking, maybe the audiences didn't notice Robert didn't want to be there at all but in retrospect it's pretty obvious. Sure, some nights in 1980 Plant was able to get into it (whether he really wanted to or not) but most nights IMO his apathy is palpable. That said, when Zeppelin was on the ball in 1980 some of the music they made on stage was as good as it ever was.

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That said, when Zeppelin was on the ball in 1980 some of the music they made on stage was as good as it ever was.

35 years ago tonight in Zurich being a good case in point!

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^ Yep and tomorrow listening to Frankfurt will be even better! :thumbsup:

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I kinda dug the fuck up, the sparse nature of having only the drums for a few measures was interesting. I seems JPJ was the cause on this one and then Page followed. I wonder if his keys dropped out and Page went over to lend a hand? Either way they recovered nicely and I liked the change.

My problem with ALL Kashmirs' during the 80' tour was JPJ's horrid toy store keyboard sound. The fullness of the 75' & 77' mellotron is gone, replaced by a very thin sounding keyboard. Sounded like a fucking polka accordion!

Does anyone know why JPJ didn't use a mellotron during the 1980 tour?

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They said it was too hard to keep in tune. I thought JPJ didn't use the Mellotron in '77 either though....

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What baffles me to no end is didn't SOMEONE somewhere , even before the tour, hear the "toy" keyboard sound ??? I have heard some

excuses that properly recorded it sounded fine. I find this explanation incredible. No one in the band heard that supposed state of the

art monstrosity without comment ??

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They said it was too hard to keep in tune. I thought JPJ didn't use the Mellotron in '77 either though....

Of course he played a Mellotron on the 1977 Tour...you can distinctly hear the Mello-tones that separate the Mellotron from the Yamaha synth he started using on the road in 1979. You can read all about it here on Brian Kebew's blog. http://www.reocities.com/jpjkeys/mellotron.html

John Paul Jones' skills at arranging were put to great use for the studio tracks "Stairway To Heaven" and "The Rain Song." On "Stairway To Heaven," the song begins with four overdubbed recorders (wooden flutes) that add a beautiful chamber ensemble to Jimmy Page's single guitar intro. To recreate this arrangement live, a new instrument was introduced, beginning with the Japanese Tour of 1972. Later it would be used in the studio to create more memorable arrangements. This instrument -- the Mellotron -- would become one of the high (and low) points of Jones' work with Led Zeppelin.

The Mellotron was developed in England in the 1960s, and was based upon the Chamberlin, an American instrument. Both the Mellotron and Chamberlin operated on the same principle -- an organ-type keyboard would control many tape players underneath, giving the musician the opportunity to play taped "samples" of instrument sounds. Contrary to popular belief, the Mellotron does not have tape loops, but instead fixed lengths of tape (8 seconds long). When the tape reaches the end, it stops and rewinds to prepare to play the note again.

Jones used the Mk.II for the beautiful string arrangements in "The Rain Song" from Houses of the Holy. The Mellotron violins are strangely haunting, and have limited fidelity. They are also difficult to play smoothly, as the sounds begin and end instantly. To overcome this, Jones used a volume pedal to swell the entrances and exits of the string lines to make them more realistic.

In an interview specifically for this article, he describes his process for recording a simulated orchestra with a keyboard: "The secret of successful keyboard string parts is to play only the parts that a real string section would play. That is, one line for the First Violins, one line for Second Violins, one for Violas, one for Cellos, one for Basses. Some divided parts [two or more notes to a line] are allowed, but keep them to a minimum. Think melodically."

The first Mellotrons were called Mk.I's and soon were upgraded with new sounds to the Mk.II. These Mk.II's became famous instruments in the hands of the Beatles ("Strawberry Fields Forever") and the Moody Blues ("Nights In White Satin"). This type of Mk.II model was also used for Led Zeppelin's records. The Mk.II has two keyboards. The one on the right has instrument sounds, such as a flute, piano, mandolin, and saxophone. The left hand keyboard (rarely used on pop albums) was designed as a "rhythm section" with recorded ensembles playing in different styles such as jazz, foxtrot, waltz, etc.

Many people consider "Kashmir" to be Led Zeppelin's greatest record. It's heavy Arabic flavor was incredibly unique, and very well executed. The blend of hard rock and orchestral instruments was perfect, and remains a classic example of a brilliant arrangement. Jones arranged "Kashmir" for both real strings and Mellotron strings. It is difficult for many to hear the difference between the "real" and simulated strings, which is a tribute to Jones' clever performance and arrangement. The Mellotron strings are most easily heard on the bridge, during the Gm and A chords.

For the live concerts, Led Zeppelin used the Mellotron for the flute intro of "Stairway To Heaven," and the string of "The Rain Song" and "Kashmir." The model used for live work was an M400, a smaller white version of the old Mk.II design. The M400 was compact, but had fewer sounds. It was more reliable than the Mk.II model, but still prone to trouble. Jones explains, "To walk up to the Mellotron, not knowing if it was going to be in tune or what it was going to do, was a terrifying experience!" Indeed, many Mellotrons had badly designed motor control cards. This would cause the instrument to drift in pitch and sometimes fail.

For the 1977 tour, Jones played Jimmy Page's Mk.V Mellotron -- a rare protype of the Mk. V model that was actually two M400s in one unit. It was wide and black, and allowed twice as many sounds inside. Having two keyboards also allowed greater performance options since two sounds could be played simultaneously. Unfortunately, the Mk.V was no more reliable than the M400, and it was replaced with synthesized strings on the 1979 tour.

What baffles me to no end is didn't SOMEONE somewhere , even before the tour, hear the "toy" keyboard sound ??? I have heard some

excuses that properly recorded it sounded fine. I find this explanation incredible. No one in the band heard that supposed state of the

art monstrosity without comment ??

If you find the 1980 Tour thread, you will see where I rail at length about the entire band's choice of equipment for the 1980 tour (with the exception of Bonham's Steel Ludwigs). It was as if they collectively said "Hey let's use these really crappy 80s tones and date ourselves badly!" in future times. Especially Plant with his extreme use of the harmonizer and Jones with his Alembics and cheesy Yamaha synths. The shows would have sounded at least partially better had Robert cut back on the harmonizer, and Jones gone back to the Fender bass and old keyboards, and Jimmy had a more consistent tone.

Edited by Strider

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They said it was too hard to keep in tune. I thought JPJ didn't use the Mellotron in '77 either though....

Here is a photo from 1977 St. Louis where you can clearly see the Mk.V Mellotron Jones used...it's the big black box to his left of the Fender Rhodes that he is playing in this photo.

StHstlou.jpg

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"Kashmir" tended to give the band a fair bit of grief in 1977 and 1980. Note that the 1975 versions are just about flawless...

Yeah, that's true. It's hard to count the number of times they screw up Kashmir on the existing '77 and '80 tapes - especially in '80, it's hard to find one where they make it all the way through with no problems.

The biggest Kashmir train wreck that comes to mind is Madison Square Garden, June 7, 1977 - an otherwise pretty good show. Something truly horrible happens to Page's guitar - in one ghastly moment, all his effects seem to disappear and the guitar goes horribly out of tune at the same time. I can't find it on YouTube but I'll keep looking. It's pretty epic.

Edited by tmtomh

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All of this 1980 bashing with very little in the way of specifics. Easy to briefly listen to a show and say it sucks if you have already made up your mind prior to putting on your headphones. Plant comments how he's enjoying himself more in '80 than how he's not - you've got to take every word from every show into account. It's all in the Plantations, but if you only remember the negative comments and nothing else than you can't say that's a consensus can you?

You want your Zeppelin tight but loose, you're going to get some mistakes. They screw up Kashmir once in NYC and once in LA, and in Zurich and Rotterdam (briefly) in 1980. There may be one or two more. That's hard to count?

They picked their instruments in 1980 based on where the technology was going and what other musicians were playing. I guess you've never heard "Shaken n' Stirred" before?

Everybody just chimes in with a pat on the back saying "yeah that sucked man"...Three pages and nobody cited Bonham in New York in '75 at the end of Heartbreaker following the solo? What about Bonham forgetting the drum break in ALS in Oakland on 7/24/77? How about Page's Heartbreaker performance in Vancouver in '75. These are specifics, not "fuck 1980, that shit sucked" generalities.

Edited by ListenToThis

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Does anyone know why JPJ didn't use a mellotron during the 1980 tour?

It was too unreliable. There's a few interviews with him over the years where he talked about the Mellotron being great sounding, but a real headache to play, keep in tune and maintain. When you change sounds (strings for Kashmir to flute for Stairway, for example) the mechanism has to wind the tapes (one tape for every key on the keyboard!) from one sound to another, and Mellotrons were notorious for getting jammed, eating the tapes, tapes breaking or getting stuck in an eternal 'sound change' loop because it failed to detect the bit of foil stuck to the tape to mark where each new sound started, The fact that the Mellotron worked as well as it did is pretty remarkable in itself.....

He'd used the (enormous) Yamaha GX1 for Copenhagen & Knebworth, but it was just too damn big & heavy to shift and too difficult and time-consuming to set up to take on tour. There weren't very many made, and they were still pretty experimental.

Plus he'd just spent about £20,000 on a Fairlight CMI - one of the first samplers, Jonesy loves his technology! - which dealt with the sounds not covered by the piano including the weird drone from the beginning of ITE. Much lighter and far less temperamental than the mellotron, it had two full size keyboards (unlike the tiny 3 octave mellotron keyboard), which made life a bit easier for things like Kashmir, and the sounds were stored on floppy discs. Sadly he picked some truly horrid cheesy sounds to use on that tour (surely he could've sampled the mellotron?), but I guess that's the 80's for you! In the attempts to sound 'current' it's amazing how quickly the new sounds end up sounding dated. Some people call it progress.

Edited by woz70

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^ Yep and tomorrow listening to Frankfurt will be even better! :thumbsup:

Indeed. It's on now as I speak. And I'm looking forward to cranking Berlin '80 next week on its 35th anniversary.

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