Jump to content

England

leddy

By leddy
in Ramble On

Recommended Posts

leddy

leddy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Can't see that happening. Like Arsenal and Chelsea, Man Utd just haven't got what it takes to win in Europe.

Liverpool are the best bet. They seem to come into their own out of all the English clubs in that competition. I expect Liverpool to go the furthest again this year too. There is something about European nights at Anfield that drives the club on. Of course, the legacy and history also helps. It's the same with AC Milan in Italy. They aren't the best Italian domestic side but in Europe it seems to be their forte and destiny to do well in the CL.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Liverpool and Milan meet again in the final for part 3 LOL.

I think your wrong I think the others do have what it takes in Europe, but it being a cup compitition anything is possible, I mean when Liverpool won it a few years back they were not the best team in Europe but were a good cup team, winning your own league doesn't lie and to win it you have to be the best !! I would also add the World Cup when Italy won it again they were not the best team in the world but a good tornement team !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Katuschka

Katuschka

Posted
Posted
Both if you can. :P

Well, in general...I've no idea. It really depends. People are different.

Anyway: The Czech Republic has the highest beer consumption per capita in the world. - Wikipedia

Well, that's not something to boast about, is it. :blink: Though it's from WIKIPEDIA! :rolleyes:

And personally...I can stand a lot, considering my age, physical constitution etc., but only if I don't smoke when drinking - which I never do anymore, because I know the consequences...

She does that a lot. I don't get her...

Yeah, I know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mangani

Mangani

Posted
Posted
I think your wrong I think the others do have what it takes in Europe,

Disagree. They haven't shown it so far. Cheslea are bottlers, Arsenal have never been European class under Wenger (he's never won a European trophy) while Man Utd have always tended to struggle as soon as they face a good continental side. How many top teams have Man Utd k.o'd from Europe these last half dozen years or so? I count none. Compare them to Liverpool who have ko'd Barcelona, Juventus, Milan, Chelsea (twice) etc.

but it being a cup compitition anything is possible, I mean when Liverpool won it a few years back they were not the best team in Europe but were a good cup team,

They were the best team in the competition that year. They never lost a single knockout game (Milan did) and overcame every team they played on aggregate. Only once were they outplayed in the later stages (the final itself) but still showed the bottle to not get beaten.

winning your own league doesn't lie and to win it you have to be the best !!

Being good domestically doesn't automatically mean much in European context. Tactically, it's a whole different ball game. As I said, Arsene Wenger has a very poor European record over the years, despite a very good domestic record. The two are not interchangeable. Benitez is far superior to Wenger as a European tactician. Wenger went years and years before he managed to qualify past the group stages. Benitez has never failed to qualify past the group stages in all of his 4 seasons at Liverpool.

I'd add as well that in winning the domestic league title you do not necessarily have to beat your closest rivals. Man Utd for example do not have to beat Arsenal and Chelsea to win the Premiership. They just have to make sure they rack up more points against the inferior and lower placed teams than Arsenal and Chelsea. Man Utd can fail to beat Arsenal and Chelsea but still win the league. Man Utd can still even lose to those teams but go on to win the league.

In the Champions League it doesn't work like that. Sooner or later in the knockout stages you have to overcome some very good teams if you want to win it. Yes you can draw on aggregate and go through on away goals or penalties but that's still overcoming them and not losing to them.

I would also add the World Cup when Italy won it again they were not the best team in the world but a good tornement team !!

I don't think there was a standout best team in the last World Cup tournament. I thought the play was very average. However, Italy played the best tactically and all round deserved to win it. I don't think any other team did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
leddy

leddy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Disagree. They haven't shown it so far. Cheslea are bottlers, Arsenal have never been European class under Wenger (he's never won a European trophy) while Man Utd have always tended to struggle as soon as they face a good continental side. How many top teams have Man Utd k.o'd from Europe these last half dozen years or so? I count none. Compare them to Liverpool who have ko'd Barcelona, Juventus, Milan, Chelsea (twice) etc.

They were the best team in the competition that year. They never lost a single knockout game (Milan did) and overcame every team they played on aggregate. Only once were they outplayed in the later stages (the final itself) but still showed the bottle to not get beaten.

Being good domestically doesn't automatically mean much in European context. Tactically, it's a whole different ball game. As I said, Arsene Wenger has a very poor European record over the years, despite a very good domestic record. The two are not interchangeable. Benitez is far superior to Wenger as a European tactician. Wenger went years and years before he managed to qualify past the group stages. Benitez has never failed to qualify past the group stages in all of his 4 seasons at Liverpool.

I'd add as well that in winning the domestic league title you do not necessarily have to beat your closest rivals. Man Utd for example do not have to beat Arsenal and Chelsea to win the Premiership. They just have to make sure they rack up more points against the inferior and lower placed teams than Arsenal and Chelsea. Man Utd can fail to beat Arsenal and Chelsea but still win the league. Man Utd can still even lose to those teams but go on to win the league.

In the Champions League it doesn't work like that. Sooner or later in the knockout stages you have to overcome some very good teams if you want to win it. Yes you can draw on aggregate and go through on away goals or penalties but that's still overcoming them and not losing to them.

I don't think there was a standout best team in the last World Cup tournament. I thought the play was very average. However, Italy played the best tactically and all round deserved to win it. I don't think any other team did.

I disagree with nearly all that you say, yes Liverpool are a good cup team !! but yes if you win your league it doesn't mean you will be good in Europe but its a lot harder to win it, you need consistancy of which Liverpool don't have, so they have to be content on winning cup comps, thats fine if their fans are happy for that !! I know its important to beat you but over the last 10 years and i think the other Arsenal fans would agree it the Utd Arsenal games that are the most important now to win as they have been our main threat !!

But to be honest after we won the treble of League, Fa Cup and European cup in 1999 I thought if thats the last thing we ever do then I would be happy because I don't think it will ever be done again in England !!

I guess you must support Liverpool, and although I love the people from there, I do not like the team but I am on this forum for the love of Zeppelin and I aint going to fall out over !! that can be for the sad people who rant and rave on footy forums about how nuch they hate teams etc, at the end of the day its a sport !! It doesn't matter !! I do however respect the tradition of the club liverpool and they have had some good palyers over the years but I know living in Manchester when I did, the rivalary is intense and no true United fan could ever support Liverpool !! not even in Europe !! Sad I know :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mangani

Mangani

Posted
Posted
I disagree with nearly all that you say,

Surely you can't argue that Wenger is a better manager in Europe than Benitez? Surely you can't argue that Chelsea have bottled it time and again in the CL? With their money, they should have won it by now. That's why Mourinho got the sack. Failure in the CL. Surely you can't argue that as soon as Man Utd come up against a good side in the CL they inevitably get knocked out??? It happens every year the first time they play a top team.

yes Liverpool are a good cup team !! but yes if you win your league it doesn't mean you will be good in Europe but its a lot harder to win it,

It's a lot harder to win the Prem than the CL? Hmmmmm, but only one English side has won the CL these last half a dozen years whereas 3 different sides have won the Prem. That should tell you how difficult it is. Nobody has won the CL back to back in it's present format but the Prem has been won back to back. Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd have found it much harder to win the CL than they have the Premiership. Arsenal and Chelsea have never won it (can't get any harder than that) while Man Utd haven't won it since the last century.

You need consistancy of which Liverpool don't have,

True. Yes you do and Liverpool don't have consistency in the domestic league. On the other hand to win the CL you need good tactical awareness and bottle, something that the other English teams have lacked for a while on the big stage.

so they have to be content on winning cup comps, thats fine if their fans are happy for that !!

The Champions League is the biggest and most prestigious comp there is to win. You make it sound like it's second rate. I could turn it around and say fine, if fans of the likes of Arsenal, Man Utd and Chelsea are happy only being successful domestically and not on the bigger stage in Europe then fair enough. I'm sure Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd fans would all swap Prem this year for CL glory this year.

The Champions League Final is the biggest game any club will ever play. There is no bigger. Hell, even AC Milan more or less openly say they have no interest in winning the Italian League anymore because they want the Champs League every year as it's bigger.

I know its important to beat you but over the last 10 years and i think the other Arsenal fans would agree it the Utd Arsenal games that are the most important now to win as they have been our main threat !!

You are the first Man Utd fan I have heard say the Arsenal game is more important than beating Liverpool. Go to the Utd boards and see who their main rival is. They are obsessed with Liverpool and Man Utd fans sing about Liverpool every game. They don't sing about Arsenal.

Man Utd v Liverpool is the biggest and most intense rivalry in English football. They could both be mid table and the rivalry would still be intense. Even Fergie keeps saying the Man Utd v Liverpool games are the ones he looks for most of all.

But to be honest after we won the treble of League, Fa Cup and European cup in 1999 I thought if thats the last thing we ever do then I would be happy because I don't think it will ever be done again in England !!

Never say never. All you need is a bit of luck to help you along the way. I don't even think that was the best Man Utd side I have seen. The Liverpool team that won a treble of League, European Cup and League Cup in 1984 wasn't the best Liverpool team of all time. Better Liverpool teams won less.

The Liverpool team that missed out by one game from winning the treble in 1977 (lost the F.A Cup final 1-2 to Man Utd via a flukey deflected goal that came off somebody's arse) wasn't the best Liverpool team of all time either.

I guess you must support Liverpool, and although I love the people from there, I do not like the team but I am on this forum for the love of Zeppelin and I aint going to fall out over !! that can be for the sad people who rant and rave on footy forums about how nuch they hate teams etc, at the end of the day its a sport !! It doesn't matter !!

Yeah, no need to rant and rave. I agree. But there's nothing wrong with healthy debate. :)

I do however respect the tradition of the club liverpool and they have had some good palyers over the years but I know living in Manchester when I did, the rivalary is intense and no true United fan could ever support Liverpool !! not even in Europe !! Sad I know :rolleyes:

I don't think it's sad. That's football. You can't support your most hated rival. I don't support Man Utd in Europe in any way. I find it quite understandable and ok if Man Utd fans want Liverpool to lose in Europe. I have no problem with it.

Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
leddy

leddy

Posted
  • Author
Posted

^^^^^^^^^

Arsenal got to the final a few years ago and were about 18 mins from winning it, I don't think thats under achieving, Chelsea have got to 2 or is it 3 seni's in Europe, thats ok hardly bottling it!!!

You also say others have under achieved in Europe, well its a cup comp and by its nature its a lottery, if the format was a league format then the teams you say who under acheive wouldn't and would probably win it, where as Lpool wouldn't, any team can win a cup competiton, look at Greece in the Euro's a few years back and some teams who have won the euro cup in the past !!

In 1999 there wasn't luck involved we didn't get beaten in Europe, knocked out the best teams, And as a liverpool mate i have said, the treble you one of the cups were all but the 2nd rate cups..ie League cup, Uefa Cup, only the FA cup was of any note !!

And I don't hate anyone, although Arsenal over the last ten years have been our rivals I don't hate them !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mangani

Mangani

Posted
Posted
^^^^^^^^^

Arsenal got to the final a few years ago and were about 18 mins from winning it, I don't think thats under achieving,

Hmmmmmmmmm I do. Wenger is held up as this great scientific manager/coach yet in his ten years at Arsenal he's never won anything in Europe and for many years struggled to progress from the group stage.

Chelsea have got to 2 or is it 3 seni's in Europe, thats ok hardly bottling it!!!

I'd say that was bottling it. They didn't have the balls to reach even the final. 3 times they couldn't make that push to the final. They bottled it against Monaco in 2004 and they bottled it twice at Anfield in '05 and '07. With the money they spent on their team they should have done a lot better.

You also say others have under achieved in Europe, well its a cup comp and by its nature its a lottery,

Real Madrid got to 3 finals in short time. Milan got to 3 finals in a short time. Liverpool got to 2. They didn't do so because they got lucky with the lottery, they did so because they were ADEPT in the competion. :). You can't say Milan getting to 3 finals in 5 years is down to a lottery.

if the format was a league format then the teams you say who under acheive wouldn't and would probably win it, where as Lpool wouldn't,

Liverpool would still do better in a league format than the other English clubs because their style suits playing in Europe. In fact, they have done better in a league format in Europe. Liverpool and Chelsea were in the same group in the CL in 2005/2006. Liverpool finished top of their group.......above Chelsea. :)

any team can win a cup competiton, look at Greece in the Euro's a few years back and some teams who have won the euro cup in the past !!

But the CL isn't strictly a cup competition though. It's starts off in a group format then goes to two legged playoff games. There has not been any team that has ever won the CL through luck alone. Same goes for the old European Cup. I don't recal any team who 'luckily' won the old European Cup.

In 1999 there wasn't luck involved we didn't get beaten in Europe, knocked out the best teams,

In 1999 you were lucky that Arsenal missed that penalty in the F.A Cup semi. That goes in and you don't win the treble. Fine line between success and non success. In 1977 Liverpool lost the treble because of a deflected shot that hit somebody's arse and went in LOL.

And as a liverpool mate i have said, the treble you one of the cups were all but the 2nd rate cups..ie League cup, Uefa Cup, only the FA cup was of any note !!

Actually that UEFA Cup was a bigger win than the F.A Cup and it pleased us more. The Uefa Cup meant something then. Probably the last season it did. Look at the teams we beat along the way.....Olympiakos, Porto, Roma and Barcelona.......all regular CL sides. Indeed, both Porto and Barcelona are recent CL winners. That was a tough competition that year.

Anyway I was really talking about the 1984 treble when Liverpool won the league, the European Cup and the league cup. First time any English side had won 3 trophies in the same season. The league cup final in 1984 was a bigger game than Man Utd's 1999 F.A Cup final against Newcastle because we played and beat Everton, our local rivals, in the final......who went on to win the F.A Cup that season and the league the following season so they were a bloody good side. Merseyside won all four trophies in 1984. The 1984 European Cup was also won on the opponent's home ground. Liverpool had to play Roma in Rome. Very unfair. I believe what Liverpool did in 1984 was every bit as impressive as Man Utd's treble in 1999. But it's all but forgotten. Ah well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ledded1

ledded1

Posted
Posted
Well done to Stoke, they could and should of won !!! :)

Very true leddy.

Sam A must have been at another match when he said they controlled the game.

So all we need to do now is go to St James Park, beat them and then face Arsenal away.

Piece of piss :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

LEDZEPPELIN.com

Site Navigation

  • LedZeppelin.com Home
  • News
  • Discography
  • Merchandise
  • Contact
  • Privacy Policy

    • Led Zeppelin Timeline

  • Concert Timeline / Database
  • Events
  • Photos
  • Video
    • ×
    ×
    • Create New...