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woz70

Dragon Telecaster Re-created

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Maybe he’s going to play it on the new album and tour he’s always going on about 😉

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39 minutes ago, Paganini said:

Maybe he’s going to play it on the new album and tour he’s always going on about 😉

Better...his new album is called Led Zeppelin L (50) with Chris Farlow and Paul Rogers on vocals, Pino Palladino on Bass, Kenny Jones on drums and Rick Wakeman on keyboards. Release  date January 2019😉

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On 10/31/2018 at 12:13 PM, duckman said:

Better...his new album is called Led Zeppelin L (50) with Chris Farlow and Paul Rogers on vocals, Pino Palladino on Bass, Kenny Jones on drums and Rick Wakeman on keyboards. Release  date January 2019😉

Nice !

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I know that guitar played a huge role in the development of the band, but I was never a big fan of the tone. Fender pickups always get too fuzzy through heavy overdrive and that sound was way too limited to the psychedelic 60s. Maybe that's why he switched over. 

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23 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I know that guitar played a huge role in the development of the band, but I was never a big fan of the tone. Fender pickups always get too fuzzy through heavy overdrive and that sound was way too limited to the psychedelic 60s. Maybe that's why he switched over. 

I've always liked Page's tone that he had with the Telecaster and Tonebender, particularly during the early Zeppelin period. I always thought that the acquisition of the Les Paul from Joe Walsh led Page to step away from the heavy overdriven sound of the 2nd American tour to a gradually cleaner tone.

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On 11/12/2018 at 9:46 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

I know that guitar played a huge role in the development of the band, but I was never a big fan of the tone. Fender pickups always get too fuzzy through heavy overdrive and that sound was way too limited to the psychedelic 60s. Maybe that's why he switched over. 

Huh? Hey no problem if you are not a big fan of the tone but your comment about fender pickups getting too fuzzy through heavy overdrive? Fender pickups are the perfect match for the tonebender fuzz used on Zeppelin I simply because they are much cleaner than Gibson humbuckers.  They are anything but too fuzzy. And as much as I love the combination of the Les Paul and the Marshall that came later, Jimmy Page’s tone on that first album whether it was without the fuzz on Communication Breakdown or with the fuzz on Dazed was absolutely glorious! In my humble opinion of course. 😛

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38 minutes ago, Ed A said:

Huh? Hey no problem if you are not a big fan of the tone but your comment about fender pickups getting too fuzzy through heavy overdrive? Fender pickups are the perfect match for the tonebender fuzz used on Zeppelin I simply because they are much cleaner than Gibson humbuckers.  They are anything but too fuzzy. And as much as I love the combination of the Les Paul and the Marshall that came later, Jimmy Page’s tone on that first album whether it was without the fuzz on Communication Breakdown or with the fuzz on Dazed was absolutely glorious! In my humble opinion of course. 😛

+1

R😎🎸👍

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7 hours ago, Ed A said:

Huh? Hey no problem if you are not a big fan of the tone but your comment about fender pickups getting too fuzzy through heavy overdrive? Fender pickups are the perfect match for the tonebender fuzz used on Zeppelin I simply because they are much cleaner than Gibson humbuckers.   . 😛

I appreciate your rebuttal but that makes no sense. Fender pickups are single coil and they don't "accept" overdrive well, which in turn causes them too sound fuzzier than the humbuckers used in Gibsons. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as lots of people like yourself prefer that 60s fuzz tone. The only problem is that you have to roll the top end off to keep the highs from splitting your ears, which dampens the tone. Just listen to the solo on Communication Breakdown. No top on it at all and it sounds slightly muffled. 

I will agree that Dazed sounded good with the Tele tone. But I think tracks like You Shook Me and HMMT would've benefited more from the cleaner, more menacing crunch of a humbucker. My biased opinion of course.

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Well let’s agree to make this a discussion and not an argument. Although I’m not sure either one of us will see things the same way!  First let me say that I am a Les Paul and humbucker lover. Been playing them since I first saw Zeppelin at the Nassau Coliseum in 1972. And although I own a telecaster Les Pauls are my weapon of choice. And the sound of the Les Paul through a vintage Marshall with no fuzz at all as Heartbreaker was done on Zeppelin II is my favorite tone of all time. But that being said I can’t agree less about single coil pickups not accepting fuzz boxes well. If you’ve ever tried a Les Paul through a vintage tonebender as I have you will never get what Jimmy got on Dazed and you shook me and how many more times  on Zep I. It is the humbuckers that are too thick and muddy and the whole thing ends up like a muddy mess. But because single coils are thinner and brighter the telecaster was the perfect guitar to use with that pedal. And I’m not the only one that is of that opinion. Single coils are cleaner thinner and brighter than a humbucker. Now if you personally didn’t like the combination that’s fine. But  in my opinion and many others that combination was fantastic although Jimmy only used it for the one album and up until March 69 live. Dazed and confused solo is the bridge pickup through the tonebender and I don’t think you can get a much more menacing tone than that! Sure playing that song like he did a couple years later live with the Les Paul and Marshall is a whole different thing and a wonderful trip, but the original stands alone. And how many more times solo that is the next pickup on the telecaster and an equally incredible tone.  And you shook me solo is one of the most incredible recorded solos I’ve ever heard! That is the telecaster with both pickups on which is out of phase which normally would be quite thin and nasal as heard on early bootlegs when you don’t have the fuzz on. But click on the fuzz and you get what is on Zeppelin I. But I can’t make you like the tone and that’s OK! One last thing. When you say single coils don’t work with overdrive. Tell that to David Gilmour! Some of the best guitar tones ever recorded. Single Tone Strat played through Hiwatt amps set clean with heavy drive pedals in front. Just saying! 

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I have a 1992 American Standard Telecaster in Candy Apple Red with a white pickguard.   It looks like a Buddy Holly Guitar but is so much more.  It has a double bladed DiMarzio in the bridge which makes it rip so nicely.  It can jangle or strangle, overall it is pretty badass.  I love it for certain tunes and I come up with very different things on it than when I play the les paul studio or the taylor...

As far as the Dragon Telecaster goes I would love to know the list price for the mass market model.  Maybe I should just make up some stencils and buy some paint for mine...

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23 hours ago, Ed A said:

Well let’s agree to make this a discussion and not an argument

Absolutely.

 

23 hours ago, Ed A said:

But that being said I can’t agree less about single coil pickups not accepting fuzz boxes well.

Let me clarify here as my wording was poor; I certainly didn't mean they didn't accept them well, as single coils are very popular through fuzz boxes. I mean they have a sound that is very thick and lacking clarity compared to a humbucker that cleans up the signal and adds crunch over fuzz. I know I shouldn't blame the Tele solely as the Tonebender was mainly to blame. But even with the TB, I preferred the Les Paul tone he had later. 

 

23 hours ago, Ed A said:

It is the humbuckers that are too thick and muddy and the whole thing ends up like a muddy mess.

I'll let the examples below do the talking. You can clearly hear more muddy/overly fuzzy tone with the Tele compared to the crunchier performances with the LP. Then fast forward to 71-73 and the fuzz is completely gone (along with the Tonebender I think). But to sum up my point/opinion, I really did not care for that flat, muffled, tone of the earlier performances, which was enhanced by the Tele.

 

 

 

 


 

Edited by gibsonfan159

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Yes I get it and I should clarify. When I said the Les Paul is a muddy mess I meant if you try to use it through the same tonebender petal. The toneBender is actually more suited to work with the telecaster. But as far as you not liking the tone as much that’s all good everybody has their own opinions about what we like and don’t like. As I said I love  and play les pauls because that is the sound I dig the most. 

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On 11/19/2018 at 9:06 AM, Ed A said:

  And you shook me solo is one of the most incredible recorded solos I’ve ever heard! That is the telecaster with both pickups on which is out of phase which normally would be quite thin and nasal as heard on early bootlegs when you don’t have the fuzz on. But click on the fuzz and you get what is on Zeppelin I. 

Actually in a 2014 interview Page stated that the You Shook Me solo was recorded on a Gibson Flying V guitar.  Per Page:

It’s hard for people to believe, but I just used my Fender Telecaster for the entire album, except for one track. Somebody was trying to sell me a Gibson Flying V at the time. I don’t what made them think I could afford it, because I clearly couldn’t, but I asked them if I could just try it out. I brought it into Olympic and used it on “You Shook Me.” With those big humbuckers, it was so powerful you can hear it breaking up the amp in the middle of the song. I could’ve tidied it up, but I really liked hearing the amp really struggle to get the sound out. It’s really fighting through the electronics to get out of that speaker. I’m not sure what happened to the guitar. It might’ve found its way to Keith Richards or something, but I really don’t know.

 

https://www.guitarworld.com/magazine/led-vault-jimmy-page-talks-first-three-led-zeppelin-albums-gibson-and-harmony-guitars-and-more

 

 

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10 hours ago, Googlywoogly1 said:

Actually in a 2014 interview Page stated that the You Shook Me solo was recorded on a Gibson Flying V guitar.  Per Page:

It’s hard for people to believe, but I just used my Fender Telecaster for the entire album, except for one track. Somebody was trying to sell me a Gibson Flying V at the time. I don’t what made them think I could afford it, because I clearly couldn’t, but I asked them if I could just try it out. I brought it into Olympic and used it on “You Shook Me.” With those big humbuckers, it was so powerful you can hear it breaking up the amp in the middle of the song. I could’ve tidied it up, but I really liked hearing the amp really struggle to get the sound out. It’s really fighting through the electronics to get out of that speaker. I’m not sure what happened to the guitar. It might’ve found its way to Keith Richards or something, but I really don’t know.

 

https://www.guitarworld.com/magazine/led-vault-jimmy-page-talks-first-three-led-zeppelin-albums-gibson-and-harmony-guitars-and-more

 

 

Well that is absolutely the first time I’ve ever heard that and that actually blows me away! But if I had to guess that is the flying V tracking throughout the entire song all of the slide parts and the rhythm Riffing and chording. Sounds very much like a neck humbucker. I still believe the solo is the telecaster overdubbed with the tonebender pedal. But very cool info!

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I will say this is by far one of the best illustrated recreations of the original dragon design, but still has some spacial issues to the original drawing as would be expected.  It definitely was NOT made from a tracing of the original design or any stencils that made have survived the summer of 1967.   I had previously heard rumors that Page had found stencils from which the artwork for the guitar was made, from second hand information from guitar luthiers claiming to have been approached by a personal photographer friend of Pages that was implying they may have the possibility of doing the Dragon project.   When I later read the October 10th press releases that Jimmy had hired the illustrator who worked on the Led Zeppelin by Led Zeppelin to recreate the artwork for the Dragon, that theory or rumor seemed to be put to bed.    So I will be at NAMM waiting to see the created artwork up close.   Hopefully a custom shop model will be on hand.    The guitar modeled for the Sundragon Amp is definitely NOT the original body painted over.   While the cathedral gain pattern on this guitar is very close and a beautiful match, it is slightly to the left of the actual Dragon's body.    This rendition has variations from the actual Dragon design that (if I were expecting to pay $50K for a set of Custom Shop Relic'd recreations) I wish were there.

They are for me as follows:

1) A little bit more accuracy on the drawing itself.   For example the Sushumna column on the left left is way to far over and too much of the red serpent is covered and Djinn Lamp shape and inner Djinn are a little distorted. 
2) The areas in red that had bleed the white primer through causing it to turn pink are not present anywhere in this.
3) The ripples in the diffraction grating caused I believe by I believe wet paint when the pick guard was reapplied after the painting are not present.
4) Also the green paint bleed at the top of the pick guard, the red smear, black smudge and white cloudy "substance" between the clear pickguard and diffraction grating are also not there.   It's as though it is a clean new sheet of diffraction grating.   Now I get that is how Page installed the rainbow effect diffraction grating prior to the paint job as can be seen in the April 30th Chaville France Yardbirds show, but still the character of this guitar captured on film from the summer of 1967 through May of 1969 includes these visual artifacts.   An accurate relic is an accurate relic.   

So I doubt this is the final product.  I expect that the Custom Shop will have a far more accurate rendition and that later this week we will see what $25K and 8 months of getting it right, will reveal.     I Love that Jimmy is doing this project AND making a low cost made in Mexico version.  

I think he has every right to bring this guitar to market and I think this Consecrated Talisman is the most important musical living objects ever made.    Mad props to the Magus.

 

JP151118_0603d.jpg

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For $25k, it should come with the shirt and the bow. Pants are optional. 😐

lz19680907_03.jpg

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I will say this is by far one of the best illustrated recreations of the original dragon design, but still has some spacial issues to the original drawing as would be expected.  It definitely was NOT made from a tracing of the original design or any stencils that made have survived the summer of 1967.   I had previously heard rumors that Page had found stencils from which the artwork for the guitar was made, from second hand information from guitar luthiers claiming to have been approached by a personal photographer friend of Pages that was implying they may have the possibility of doing the Dragon project.   When I later read the October 10th press releases that Jimmy had hired the illustrator who worked on the Led Zeppelin by Led Zeppelin to recreate the artwork for the Dragon, that theory or rumor seemed to be put to bed.    So I will be at NAMM waiting to see the created artwork up close.   Hopefully a custom shop model will be on hand.    The guitar modeled for the Sundragon Amp is definitely NOT the original body painted over.   While the cathedral gain pattern on this guitar is very close and a beautiful match, it is slightly to the left of the actual Dragon's body.    This rendition has variations from the actual Dragon design that (if I were expecting to pay $50K for a set of Custom Shop Relic'd recreations) I wish were there.

They are for me as follows:

1) A little bit more accuracy on the drawing itself.   For example the Sushumna column on the left left is way to far over and too much of the red serpent is covered and Djinn Lamp shape and inner Djinn are a little distorted. 
2) The areas in red that had bleed the white primer through causing it to turn pink are not present anywhere in this.
3) The ripples in the diffraction grating caused I believe by I believe wet paint when the pick guard was reapplied after the painting are not present.
4) Also the green paint bleed at the top of the pick guard, the red smear, black smudge and white cloudy "substance" between the clear pickguard and diffraction grating are also not there.   It's as though it is a clean new sheet of diffraction grating.   Now I get that is how Page installed the rainbow effect diffraction grating prior to the paint job as can be seen in the April 30th Chaville France Yardbirds show, but still the character of this guitar captured on film from the summer of 1967 through May of 1969 includes these visual artifacts.   An accurate relic is an accurate relic.   

So I doubt this is the final product.  I expect that the Custom Shop will have a far more accurate rendition and that later this week we will see what $25K and 8 months of getting it right, will reveal.     I Love that Jimmy is doing this project AND making a low cost made in Mexico version.  

I think he has every right to bring this guitar to market and I think this Consecrated Talisman is the most important musical living objects ever made.    Mad props to the Magus.

 

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You know the more you look at this guitar that Jimmy is holding taken by his daughter for the Sundragonamp promotion, it does appear to have a the right grain pattern shape and there is a tiny knott in roughly the right spot.   When you sand the face of a guitar the grain pattern is going to alter and shift, so clearly IF this really is the Dragon telecaster body this grain looks really close but slightly altered as would be expected from sanding.    So I stand corrected.   This really could be the Dragon with a new paint job.

 

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I do have to say,  I love the name of this new amp collaboration "The Sun Dragon".   I see two Suns in Page's Dragon or a "Sun Behind a Sun".    Did I read this right, Page's Stairway amp fell out of the back of a Van?   What is it with this Stairway gear?   Seems like the Tone Bender foot Pedal, the amp and Guitar all seemed to have their own "curse".    So glad the amp and guitar have risen once again...   Here's a visual mashup I did recently in celebration of this new NAMM announcement.    Enjoy the insanity...

Two-Suns-DragonLow.jpg

Edited by TheEyeOfZoro

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