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Frank,

That's news to me also.

Peter "Dougal" Butler seems to be the source for this info. He mentions it in his book about Keith and I guess if it's in print, it's fact.. eight ?! Not handy at the moment, but I'll look thru Mick Bonham's book and see if there's any mention of that car in there.

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I'm going to dissect this bullshit pile point by point. I agree with Steve that Will Shade's biased agenda is obvious. This will take a couple of posts, folks.

Sam G. contributes:

THE THIEVING MAGPIES:

Jimmy Page's Dubious Recording Legacy

Part 2

By Will Shade

In July 1968, the Yardbirds finally threw in the towel. Relf and McCarty made the fatal decision that heavy, guitar-dominated music was on the way out. They formed the art rock/progressive band, Renaissance. McCarty is still rueful, yet bemused, about the path he chose to follow. He has since reformed the Yardbirds several times. The latest configuration, with Chris Dreja, toured America and Europe in 2000. They do an incredible version of "Dazed and Confused," seguing straight from a note perfect "Still I'm Sad." It would seem that McCarty and Dreja feel some right to the song.

Relf and McCarty's foray into prog rock was short lived. They released only one album with Renaissance. A second Renaissance LP was half done before they packed it in and John Hawken took it upon himself to locate other musicians to finish it. Keith Relf apparently realized the error of his ways, forming a heavy metal band in the mid-70s. Their one and only album, the self-titled Armageddon, is one of the great lost classics. It easily stands cheek by jowl with his former bandmate's work in Led Zeppelin.

This alone should call into question the author's judgement. I'm all for individual taste, but to claim that Armageddon is as good as ANY Led Zeppelin album is a gigantic stretch.

It's not fit to wipe Coda's ass, not to mention any of Zep's superior work.

Chris Dreja was initially slated to be the bass player in Page's new lineup, but bowed out gracefully once a more enthusiastic replacement was found. Page obviously made the right choice. He walked away with a stockpile of songs, including heavy metal's nascent anthem, "Dazed and Confused."

The stalwart Jimmy Page soon assembled a new band, which still called itself the Yardbirds. Comprised of Page, fellow session man John Paul Jones on bass, drummer John Bonham and vocalist Robert Plant, they fulfilled the original band's final contractual obligations, touring Sweden in September 1968. Contrary to accepted facts, the band was not known as the New Yardbirds at the time. Scandinavian ads billed them as either the Yardbirds or Yardbirds featuring Jimmy Page.

Now back to the name "Yardbirds" itself. Chris Dreja recently revealed an incredible fact to Yardbirds historian Greg Russo. The document McCarty and Relf signed was to authorize Page and Dreja to fill out a Yardbirds group to satisfy the Scandinavian dates only. Page and Dreja had the name, even when Dreja left the band.

When Chris Dreja found out that manager Peter Grant was sending the group out to tour England (October 18-19) under the name, the ex-Yardbird filed a "cease and desist" order against Page and Grant to stop them from using said name. The name change was announced in the October 19, 1968 issue of DISC Magazine. Dreja's order caused the name change! Page has never owned the name.

Back in England, the band finally dropped the old moniker and entered the studio to record their eponymous debut album.

Amusingly enough, the name Led Zeppelin itself was not an original one. In May 1966, Jeff Beck was growing disenchanted with the Yardbirds. He and Jimmy Page entered the studio to record a number of tracks along with John Paul Jones and the Who's great drummer, Keith Moon. Moon's bandmate, John Entwistle, was also involved in some capacity. Apocryphal legend says the recording session went so well that the four musicians discussed forming a band. Moon and Entwistle were dissatisfied with Pete Townshend's increasing dictatorial grip on the Who. They were quite keen on the idea as were Page and Beck. They bantered back and forth over what would be a fitting epithet for the band. Someone said they would "go over like a lead balloon." Entwistle's rejoinder was to the affect that the band should be called "lead zeppelin." Moon brayed with delight. Page filed the name away in that steel trap that serves as a brain. One of the songs recorded at this session, "Beck's Bolero," figures into the scheme of things at a later point.

This entire paragraph is utter bullshit. While Entwhistle was being targeted as a member of the hypothetical new band, he was not present at this particular session. Look at the credits, John Paul Jones is the bass player. Entiwhistle was "involved in some capacity?" Yes, Moon said in conversation that he was also interested in bolting the Who. Shade also has it wrong regarding how the name came out. The joke was entirely Moon's on that day at least. Entwhistle later claimed that he had told the joke to Moon, and Moon had repeated it at the Bolero session. Jimmy said something to the effect of "That may be, but I heard it from Moon." Shades essay is the first time I've ever heard this story told where Entwhistle was actually present at the session. IMHO, Shade is combining these two stories in a way that settles the dispute between Moon and Entwhistle as the originators of the band name. After all, if the origin of the name is in dispute, it doesn't make Jimmy look quite so much a thief for adopting it, does it?

:rolleyes:

Exhilarated by the experience, Page realized the unit would need a dynamic vocalist. One of those approached was the Small Face's diminutive, yet powerful singer, Steve Marriott. Page was quickly rebuffed by the Small Faces' management, which had shady underworld connections. Jimmy Page was asked if he could "play guitar with broken fingers" or words to that affect. Needless to say, Page never contacted Marriott. Marriott's work with the Small Faces would figure into the Led Zeppelin saga, though.

Page returned to the Yardbirds until the summer of 1968. As already documented, he formed a new unit, which became known as Led Zeppelin. Once the tour of Scandinavia was over, the band entered the studio to record their first LP in the fall of 1968. Led Zeppelin's self-titled debut was recorded in under thirty hours and it shows in the lack of originality.

Jeff Beck in the mean time had formed his first solo band. The Jeff Beck Group took the Yardbirds' formula to its logical conclusion, i.e. loud and hard psychedelic blues mutating into what we now call heavy metal. This crackerjack unit was comprised of Beck on lead guitar, Steampacket's Rod Stewart on vocals, Birds' guitarist Ron Wood on bass and Mick Waller on drums. They recorded what is arguably the very first heavy metal album, Truth. Released in August 1968, Jimmy Page was to use his ex-bandmate's album as a veritable blueprint for Led Zeppelin's debut.

A track-by-track comparison of Truth and Led Zeppelin I is an intriguing process. Both albums had a reworking of a Yardbirds' song. The Beck album opened with a roaring, albeit less effective, version of "Shapes of Things." Led Zeppelin also used a Yardbirds' song, "Dazed and Confused." Page at this point rewrote the lyrics yet again, but he stuck strictly to the arrangement he and Yardbirds drummer Jim McCarty devised. The Led Zeppelin version is solely credited to Jimmy Page, with no mention being made of Jake Holmes. Years later, Holmes heard Led Zeppelin's version but he decided not to pursue any legal action.

Both albums also contained a traditional English folk song. Beck's LP had a lovely acoustic arrangement of "Greensleeves." He didn't take any credit for the song. Page, on the other hand, showcased his companion piece to "White Summer." The song was called "Black Mountainside." It is credited solely to Page, yet humorously enough it is a centuries old tune. He probably picked it up from Bert Jansch, who is one of Page's primary acoustic influences. Further, Jansch had been playing the song for years, using its original title, "Black Waterside." He never took credit for the song. Jimmy Page, however, boldly stamped his name on the tune. As a side note, Davey Graham probably devised the D-A-D-G-A-D tuning used on "Black Waterside" and on "White Summer." Annie Briggs, another influence on Page, was also known to do a version of "Black Waterside."

Taking credit for a traditional arrangement is nothing new. By the time Jimmy got around to it, both Bob Dylan and Paul Simon had taken credit for the traditional "Scarborough Fair", to make only one of many possible examples. Also, the idea that Davey Graham truly devised DADGAD tuning is preposterous. Tunings are as old as the hills, saying he popularized it would be far more accurate. Furthermore, Jimmy's DADGAD is different from Graham's because he tunes it down half a step, so it is in fact Db-Ab-Db-Gb-Ab-Db. And, just to put icing on the anti-bullshit cake we're making here, Jansch doesn't play in DAGAD at all, but in drop D tuning. Jimmy's version of a traditional tune is played in a completely different tuning then Jansch's, and yet he somehow is ripping him off? You'd be hard pressed to prove that arrangements in two different tunings of the same melody are, in fact, one and the same. The only thing Jimmy is guilty of here is taking credit for a traditional song, something that is commonplace in music. Ever hear of Brahm's Hungarian Dances? Moving on.

This contrasting of heavy songs with light acoustic numbers was to become Led Zeppelin's trademark. Yet the Jeff Beck Group did it first and to better affect. Beck is as dazzling a guitar player as Jimmy Page, yet he is far more precise and capable of restraint.

Like in his assessment of Armageddon the author's bias is writ large. First of all, if "Beck's Bolero" was more dramatic than, say, "Good Times Bad Times", you'd hear it more often on the radio. What, are all the radio listeners in the world had the wool pulled over their eyes by the charlatan Jimmy Page? If people other than Shade thought Beck's Bolero was better than Zeppelin, it would be more popular. The ear doesn't lie, and 200 Million Zeppelin fans can't be wrong. It's not like Truth isn't out there for comparison, I have several copies myself. And BTW, Mr. Shade, if by chance you end up reading this, it would be "to better effect"

:rolleyes:

Interestingly, Jeff Beck's solo debut contained a rock 'n roll interpretation of Ravel's "Bolero." Entitled "Beck's Bolero," the piece came from the aborted 1966 supergroup session that had found Beck, Page, John Paul Jones and Keith Moon collaborating. Page provided some propulsive acoustic rhythm work upon which Jeff Beck overlaid stinging lead guitar. The song is once again credited only to Jimmy Page. Beck and Page have feuded over the songwriting rights in numerous interviews. To this day, Beck insists he came up with the arrangement. After all, it wasn't called "Page's Bolero."

Strangely, this is what Jimmy Page himself had to say about the song in a Trouser Press article, (October 1977, number 22 "Paging the Yardbirds" part two of a three part interview with Dave Schulps):

"Keith Relf had a melody on tape and we used that as the main part of the song. I don't think that Beck actually came in on the backing tracks - he just did the overdubs and wrote the central section - the riffy bridge," Page said. It is left up to you, gentle reader, to make up your own mind as to where the origins of this song truly lie.

It is ironic that Shade uses a track on which Page produced, played and wrote as an example of him ripping someone off. Perhaps it isn't called "Page's Bolero", but clearly he's the mastermind of the session. He plays the rhythm part on 12 string, Beck plays the lead. And it's always been the rhythm part that defines a song, however dramatic Beck's lead parts sound in Shade's ears. I feel the same way as Shade does about Duane Allman's lead parts on "Layla", which have at least as much to do with defining that song as Beck's do on Beck's Bolero. (I say more). I think it would be fair to give Beck (or Allman) a co-writing credit, but certainly not at the expense of Page. Bottom line, no matter how much Shade wants to paint Jimmy as a thief, putting a lead part over an existing rhythm track doesn't count as writing the song- the song existed before you put your lead on it. What was to stop Page from playing a lead himself, other than his desire to include Beck in that supergroup?

End Part 1

Edited by Magic Sam
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Will Shade's BS Rip Off Conspiracy Part 2

Truth also contained a version of the Muddy Waters classic, "You Shook Me." For some reason, Page also decided to include this song on Led Zeppelin's first album. While the song is properly accredited to its author, Willie Dixon, Jeff Beck was less than enthusiastic upon hearing Led Zeppelin's demo. With Truth still in the charts, he was unable to understand Page's decision to record the song for Led Zeppelin I. As recounted in the Led Zeppelin biography, Hammer of the Gods, Beck's eyes teared with rage as he demanded, "Jim, why?" Page just shrugged sheepishly, unable to explain why he wanted to upstage his former bandmate.

First of all- the fact that this guy uses HOTG as a source should give you pause. Is there any more questionable source in the history of rock music? But on the other hand, who knows- this might come from the 50% of HOTG that's true!

:rolleyes:

Secondly, doesn't sound like Beck. If he cried I'll eat my hat. I don't believe this exchange truly happened, and I believe that Beck has denied it, in fact.

Thirdly, Dixon was being covered right and left by the Stones, the Yardbirds, the Animals . . . the idea that there would be controversy over two different versions of the same Dixon song is preposterous. Shade obviously favors the Yardbirds in all of this, so it's predictable that he doesn't think that the Yardirds nicced Little Red Rootser from the Stones, nor that the Stones nicced it from Sam Cooke- selective prosecution! Besides, the sound and arrangement of the two versions are completely different. Next!

A rewrite of Eddie Cochran's rockabilly classic "Nervous Breakdown" appeared on Led Zeppelin's first album. Entitled "Communication Breakdown," this interpretation made no mention of Cochran, being credited to Bonham/Jones/Page.

This is the biggest piece of garbage of the lot. Here's a link to Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown".

Nervous Breakdown

Does he actually expect us to believe that CB is a rewrite of this? No, he touches on it quickly because he knows it's one of the weakest points in a weak argument. A non point, in fact. The two songs have almost nothing in common.

Annie Briggs' fingerprints were all over another song on Led Zeppelin I. Her original, "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You," was appropriated by the foursome with the credits reading Bredon (her real name)/Page/Plant. Whether Page and Plant added anything to the song is debatable.

I think a damn fine debate can be made, in fact!

First of all, there is a very good chance this is a traditional. Certainly, Page and Plant picked it up from Joan Baez, who credited it as a traditional.

If Anne Briggs has a beef with anyone, it's her. Second of all, have a listen to Baez' version of the song:

Joan Baez- Babe I'm Gonna Leave You

Shade makes these claims, but when you listen to the music yourself they all fall apart. Zeppelin's contribution to the song debatable? The chords are different, the bridge part is new, there's nothing like the fast driving section in Baez version, in short the arrangement of the two songs is incredibly different.

Furthermore, let's take a look at the lyrics of the two versions:

Joan Baez lyrics:

Babe, i'm gonna leave you

Tell you when i'm gonna leave you

leave you when ol'summer time,

summer comes a-rolling

leave you when ol'summer comes along

Babe, the highway is a-callin'

the old highway's a-callin'

callin'me to travel on, travel on out the Westward

callin'me to travel on alone

Babe,I'd like to stay here

you know I'd really like to stay here

my feet start goin'down,goin'down the highway

my feet start goin'down, goin'down alone

Babe,I got to ramble

You know I got to ramble

My feet start goin'down and I got to follow

my feet start goin'down, and I got to go

Led Zeppelin Lyrics:

Babe, baby, baby, I'm Gonna Leave You.

I said baby, you know I'm gonna leave you.

I'll leave you when the summertime,

Leave you when the summer comes a-rollin'

Leave you when the summer comes along.

Baby, baby, I don't wanna leave you,

I ain't jokin' woman, I got to ramble.

Oh, yeah, baby, baby, I believin',

We really got to ramble.

I can hear it callin' me the way it used to do,

I can hear it callin' me back home!

Babe...I'm gonna leave you

Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you

Oh I can hear it callin 'me

I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?

I know I never never never gonna leave your babe

But I got to go away from this place,

I've got to quit you, yeah

Baby, ooh don't you hear it callin' me?

Woman, woman, I know, I know

It feels good to have you back again

And I know that one day baby, it's really gonna grow, yes it is.

We gonna go walkin' through the park every day.

Come what may, every day

It was really, really good.

You made me happy every single day.

But now... I've got to go away!

Baby, baby, baby, baby

That's when it's callin' me

I said that's when it's callin' me back home...

The only thing they have in common is the first verse and the line "I've got to Ramble". Enough for a writing credit to Briggs? Sure, and she has one. The band thought it was a traditional because the version they knew was Baez' and she credited it as such- so they never intentionally denied Briggs anything in the first place. But moreover- 70% of the lyrics are completely original to Led Zeppelin. Let's see- 100% original arrangement, 70% original lyrics, yet Shade questions the way the song is credited.

:rolleyes:

Led Zeppelin I closed with the ultimate pastiche. "How Many More Times" opens with a bass riff that came straight from the Yardbirds' reworking of "Smokestack Lightning." Lyrically it is comprised of Howlin' Wolf's "How Many More Years," Albert King's "The Hunter" and bits of Gary Farr and the T-Bones' "How Many More Times." Further, there was a direct quote of Jimmy Rodgers' pop hit, "Kisses Sweeter Than Wine." Page's solo is Jeff Beck's solo from the Yardbirds classic, "Shapes of Things," slowed down to a crawl.

The Ultimate Pastiche. :rolleyes: This guy probably thinks Land of a Thousand Dances was stolen from Bonie Maronie and Long Tall Sally. Pastiche and collage are recognized as original work in visual art, just how many bits have to go in this stew before Shade will acknowledge it as it's own entity?

A listen to the Yardbirds Last Rave-up in L.A. bootleg reveals an interesting fact. "Smokestack Lightning" has the bolero section from "Beck's Bolero." Page also used this on "How Many More Times." The only thing original about the song is Page's violin bowing. "How Many More Times" is credited to Bonham/Jones/Page, though.

It has a bolero rhythm, but the chords are different. :rolleyes: if rhythms are fair ground to cry theft, Bo Diddley should just drop whatever he is doing and sue EVERYBODY. Besides, Jimmy wrote that part at the Bolero session, he can't steal from himself. Next!

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Will Shade's BS Ripoff Cospiracy part 3

During 1969, Led Zeppelin toured continually. They recorded their sophomore effort in various studios while they were on the road. The resulting album is uneven and shows less originality than its predecessor.

"Whole Lotta Love" opens Led Zeppelin II. As mentioned earlier, Steve Marriott and the Small Faces figure into the Led Zeppelin saga. That mod foursome were known for a killer live version of the Muddy Waters "You Need Love." The following paragraph is from "Small Faces: The Young Mods' Forgotten Story" by Paolo Hewitt (1995, Acid Jazz Books).

'A few years later, one of the LP's outstanding tracks, the Marriott/Lane 'You Need Loving,' cropped up again to create rock history, albeit in a different format. '"Whole Lotta Love" by Led Zeppelin was nicked off that album,' Marriott pointed out. 'Percy Plant was a big fan. He used to be at all The Small Faces gigs. We did a gig with The Yardbirds which he was at and Jimmy Page asked me what that number was we did. "'You Need Loving'," I said, "it's a Muddy Waters thing" which it really is, so they both knew it, and Percy used to come to the gigs whenever we played in Kidderminster or Stowbridge, where he came from. He was always saying he was going to get this group together. He was another nuisance. He kept coming into the dressing room, just another little Mod kid. We used to say, "That kid's here again." Anyway we used to play this number and it became a stock opener after that album. After we broke up they took it and revamped it. Good luck to them. It was only old Percy who'd had his eyes on it. He sang it the same, phrased it the same, even the stops at the end were the same, they just put a different rhythm to it.' He laughs. 'For years and years I would hear it come on the radio while driving in America, and I would think, "Go on, my son," until one day I thought, "Fucking hell, that's us, that is. The bastards!"'

"Whole Lotta Love" is obviously, as Steve Marriott pointed, a direct nick of the Small Faces take on "You Need Love." The lyrics are basically the same as the Muddy Waters version. Further, Robert Plant's vocal stylings are indeed modeled directly on Marriott's delivery. One listen to the Small Faces version will lay any doubt aside. Unfortunately, the Small Faces songwriting credits made no mention of Willie Dixon. Of course, neither did Led Zeppelin.

A direct nic? This is a Willy Dixon song. Just how much claim to the Small Faces have over a version of a song they didn't write and, as they themselves admit, with "a different rhythm" from theirs? Again, the entire British Blues movement was working from the Dixon songbook, and so for one group to claim any kind of theft over competing covers is preposterous. At this point, there are many, many different versions of every single song Dixon ever wrote by many, many different artists. Did Cream steal "Spoonful" from The Butterfield Blues Band? Did they steal it from Dion? No one has a claim except Dixon, and so the Small Faces deserve no considerations of authorship of anything, except in that likely Plant had the idea to do a cover of that song by watching the Small Faces. As for the claim that Plant copied his vocal style from the Small Faces, highly debatable. Here's a link:

Frankly, Plant's version sounds more like Janis Joplin than Steve Marriott to me. And as usual, lots of lyrics have been changed, the arrangement is radically changed . . . not that Shade cares . . .

Interestingly enough, Willie Dixon's own daughter, Shirley, brought it to her father's attention. As reported in the October 8, 1994's edition of The Los Angeles Times by Steve Hochman, Shirley Dixon first heard Led Zeppelin's version when she was thirteen. She played it for her father, who agreed it was his song. Willie Dixon was receiving no royalties from it. In 1985, Dixon sued Led Zeppelin for royalties to "Whole Lotta Love." The case was settled out of court two years later, with a generous settlement to Willie Dixon. Today, Shirley Dixon heads the Blues Heaven Foundation (established by her father), which helps blues artists recover their royalties and rights.

Another blues classic on Led Zeppelin II became famous as "The Lemon Song." Derived directly from Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor," there is also the infamous quote about squeezing lemons that comes from Robert Johnson's "Traveling Riverside Blues." Chester Burnett, a.k.a. Howlin' Wolf, received no credit for "The Lemon Song." In the early '70s, Arc Music sued Led Zeppelin for copyright infringement. The suit was settled out of court.

The album closed with a song credited to Page/Plant, "Bring It On Home." Discerning listeners realized it was the old Sonny Boy Williamson song of the same name, albeit with a furious Page solo. Once again, the song's author, Willie Dixon, won a settlement.

Now we get into some of the few actual facts that Shade uses, as opposed to the biased opinions that make up the majority of his argument. Even so, he gets his facts confused. There were two suits against Led Zeppelin here, Dixon in the 80's over Whole Lotta Love, and ONE suit in the 70's over Bring It On Home and the Lemon Song by Arc Music, the publishing arm of Chess Records who Dixon himself had to sue to get his royalties.

I think a "discerning listener" (which it should be clear at this point Shade is not) would note that it is only in the intro, (which is clearly a pisstake of the Sonny Boy Williamson version) is this song not completely original, sharing only the words "Bring It On Home" with anything Dixon wrote. I suppose it's fair that the band give credit for the parody intro. But as far as Shades' larger charge of plagarism goes, the song is completely original once the band kicks in. Sharing a title isn't enough- or do the Stones and Pat Benetar owe Zep for Heartbreaker?

Regarding the suit from Arc music- Shade conveniently ignores the fact that the true party who Zep were denying royalties to wasn't blues artists but was, in fact, a publishing company who blues artists had to sue in order to get royalty money. Denying Arc music doesn't seem like much of crime in that light. Notice that Zep credited the Richie Valens influenced Boogie With Stu not to Valens himself but to his mother? Could it be that the band might be more aware of just who ends up with the royalty money than their critics are?

:rolleyes:

The Dixon suit was settled out of court. Lennon and Harrison were both successfully sued for plagarism. It happens. The Beatles are good company to be in.

Led Zeppelin III found Page still delving into his bag of Yardbirds leftovers. An album track, "Tangerine," was one Page had worked on with the Yardbirds in the spring of 1968. Page claimed authorship of the entire song, including the lyrics. The Yardbirds had never copyrighted the piece, which made it easy for Page to usurp it in its entirety. The flower-child verses smack of Keith Relf, though.

Do they indeed? Why do you think he stops short of saying that Relf wrote them and only say it "smacks" of him? Because he doesn't know that, that's why. This is speculation. Shade read about Tangerine being based on a Yarbirds idea and made a huge assumption that the old idea hadn't been radically altered, lyrics and all. Oh yeah, and Plant's lyrics were SO much less flower childy than Relfs.

:rolleyes:

According to Wikipedia, the Yarbirds version was entitled "Knowing I'm Losing You" (?) and the lyrics are completely different except for the verse that begins "Measuring a summers day". This would imply that the chorus is completely original. Sounds like a different tune to me. Of course, none of us can properly attest to this because the song has never been released. Could be a polka and none of us would know. Though lacking in evidence Shade is happy to take the worst possible interpretation- no surprise there.

"Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" is basically an original song with Jones/Page/Plant being listed as the song's authors. However, the intro is lifted from "The Waggoner's Tale" by Bert Jansch.

1971's Led Zeppelin IV showed the band to be up to their old tricks. The drum intro to "Rock 'n Roll" was a direct lift from Little Richard's "Keep A-Knocking." One listen to that early nugget will prove the point. Further, elements of the solo from the old Yardbirds warhorse "Train Kept A-Rollin" show up in "Rock 'n Roll."

What point? Drum Intro? DRUM INTROS are fair game for allegation of theft? Of course, as usual I'm happy to post a link to whatever Shade is on about if it can be found because invariably it's not nearly the slam dunk he thinks it is, and frequently quite the opposite. One may have inspired the other, but the two intros are DIFFERENT. Listen for yourself:

Little Richard- Keep a Knockin'

I'm not even going to dignify "elements of the solo" with a response. Suffice to say if Shade really thinks individual elements like intros, solos, and chord progressions can individually constitute theft, the Stones should give all their money to Chuck Berry right now.

But it is that holiest of Holy Grails, "Stairway To Heaven," that will shock the faithful. On one of Led Zeppelin's early tours, they had opened for the California art-rock group, Spirit. In the liner notes to the reissue of Spirit's 1968 eponymous debut, the band's guitarist Randy California mentions the fact that Jimmy Page took special interest in an original entitled "Taurus." There is no doubt that Page appropriated the opening guitar lines note for note on "Stairway To Heaven." Further, the chord progression in "Stairway To Heaven" is incredibly similar to a song by the Chocolate Watch Band, "And She's Lonely." The Yardbirds played with the Chocolate Watch Band during Page's tenure. It would be quite ironic if he did indeed lift the chords from the Chocolate Watch Band. The Chocolate Watch Band, to those in the know, was the ultimate Yardbirds clone. Wouldn't it be fitting that a former Yardbirds guitarist ripped off something from a band that based an entire career around sounding like that famed quintet?

Note for note? That certainly isn't true, all it takes is one listen to the actual sound clip to realize that once again Shade is overstating his case.

Spirit - Taurus

Are the chord sequences similar? Yes. Are they both descending arpeggiated sequences. Yes. BUT, are there differences? YES! The notes arpeggiated in each chord are different! The resolution of the measure is completely different! The two songs are different! What can I say? I think there is a case to be made that Taurus may have inspired Page to write that sequence. But he changed it! That's as much as can be expected considering there is a clear precedent for some element of every song ever made!

I can't find anything by the Chocolate Watch Band to confirm or deny Shade's claim. His reference to the Yardbirds as "that famed quintet" is rather instructive, though.

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Will Shade's BS Ripoff Conspiracy Part 4- the final debunking

Led Zeppelin IV also found the band tackling a Memphis Minnie original, "When The Levee Breaks." In this case, Memphis Minnie is credited, but so are the four members of Led Zeppelin. What they contributed to the song is once again debatable.

Debatable? Again, one listen to the actual song undermines Shades' argument.

Memphis Minnie - When the Levee Breaks

Keep in mind that this is one of the cases in which Shade disparages Zep for giving itself a credit along with another artist. Much as was the case with BIGLY, the lyrics are Memphs Minnie's (considerably more so than BIGLY's were Brigg's) but the arrangement shares not one jot of similarity to Minnie's. Her version is in a major key, for Christ's sake. Does Minnie deserve her credit? Yes, she wrote the lyrics (although it could have been Kansas Joe, who did the singing.) Does Zeppelin deserve their credit? Yes, they wrote the music and she never touched it. As usual, what seems to Shade to be debatable seems to me rather undebatable.

Led Zeppelin continued to appropriate songs throughout the rest of their career, albeit with less frequency. For the most part, the songs examined in this article are the most notorious cases of Led Zeppelin lifting others artistic works.

Is this hair-splitting? Isn't rock and roll all about taking influences, warping and twisting them until they come out sounding new? Yes and no. Rock and roll's great idiot savant, Elvis Presley, married blues to country, creating the 20th century's most popular form of music. And while his first single at Sun Studios, a breath-taking version of Arthur "Big Boy" Crudup's "That's All Right Mama," doesn't sound anything like the sluggish original it is still properly credited to the rightful author. Same goes for all three of the Beatles covers of Carl Perkins songs. Taking a stray riff is one thing. Appropriating an entire song's music and lyrics while listing yourself as the author is quite another.

And when exactly did that happen? Even if we were to seriously consider these allegations not once is there a case where "an entire song's music AND lyrics" are appropriated. Which one of the songs discussed has all he same music and all the same lyrics as the songs they allegedly ripped off? Even if recognizable elements remain radical change is the norm for every one of the recordings discussed here. Is it an utterly blinding bias or did Shade just not do his homework?

Cumular Limit also has a live version of "Dazed and Confused" from French television in the spring of '68. For once, the song is credited properly, reading Jake Holmes; arr. Yardbirds. "I would really like to release Jake Holmes' original album," Sandercock related. "We can't seem to find him, though." Re-issuing The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes would undoubtedly unsnarl a tangled web.

As usual, I'll begin my counter argument with the clip in question:

Jake Holmes - Dazed and Confused

Some similarities in the riff, but not quite the same- and every single lyric has been changed other than the words "dazed and confused". Granted, they make up the title of the song. But so does the Stones' "Heartbreaker" share a title with a Led Zeppelin song, and also has a similar boogie rhythm and similar vocal motifs. Did the Stones rip off Zep? Led Zeppelin's Dazed and Confused has a million working parts which Holmes never touched. A co credit? Maybe. But to insinuate full credit belongs to Holmes? That is as inaccurate, as misleading, as much a misrepresentation as to say Holmes deserves no credit at all.

The evidence is laid out. It is up to you, gentle reader, to assess whether Jimmy Page and Led Zeppelin deserve the prestige they have been accorded.

Laid out is it? Maybe it is now, with links to the music in question and all the inconvenient omissions corrected.

Now, this may appear to be nothing but gratuitous Page-bashing. Far from it. To this day, Jimmy Page is unacknowledged as one of the two the greatest psychedelic guitar players ever. The other one is not Jimi Hendrix, but rather the aforementioned Syd Barrett. Page's criminally underrated work with the Yardbirds and on countless sessions (take note of his hypnotic work on Donovan's "Sunshine Superman") reveal him to have set the standard for lysergic discord par excellence.

Further, in light of the fact that Page played on 60% of everything released in Britian between 1963-66 and then adding his work with the Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin, he is undoubtedly the most recorded major guitarist ever. His fretwork itself is never in question. Even on the lightweight session material he appears on, Page's guitar playing itself is impeccable (which is amazing if you consider that the majority of those forgotten groups should not have been within ear-shot of a studio). But it his habit for putting his name on others materials that is being examined here, not his guitar sorcery.

What a bold disclaimer! How could anyone with a lick of sense read through that whole thing and think it was anything BUT gratuitous Page bashing? Not only is it clear that Shade IS Page bashing, it is also clear WHY he is, because he cannot hide his love of that "fabled (and "criminally underrated") quintet", the Yardbirds.

I suppose it is no surprise that Yardies fanboys hate on Zeppelin so: the source of their group's importance, their three great guitarists, also ensured that the band existed in a continuous state of flux and weren't able to capitalize on their own innovations. They never really made the transition from singles to albums, and so fans like Shade are inclined to see the album driven success of Led Zeppelin as rightfully belonging to the Yardbirds. They haven't the strength to consider that the lesser renown of the Yardbirds can be traced back to the deficiencies of the band members not named Clapton, Beck or Page, and the relative strength of the equivalent members of Led Zeppelin.

And so they concentrate on enlarging the Yardbirds' admitted influence (among others) and disguising the originality of the complex arrangements that Zeppelin brought to it. The irony is that Zeppelin wrote and recorded far more (and far better!) material that is indisputably theirs than the Yardbirds ever did- the Yardies were just better at making sure the publishing was correct. Bully for them.

:rolleyes:

I've read that essay by Shade a number of times before and it never fails to piss me off. Hopefully, "gentle reader", this post will give you reason to discard most of Shades' allegations and question ALL of them.

'Nuff said. B)

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I'm going to dissect this bullshit pile point by point. I agree with Steve that Will Shade's biased agenda is obvious. This will take a couple of posts, folks.

All you need to do is mention Will Shade in the same sentence and most Zep fans will get ready to pounce!

:angry:

BTW Bonzo was fond of Saabs as well...

bonzo_Saab.jpg

:)

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Damn, well said and thought out -magic sam. I'm gonna have to re read this again, alot of info there and some musical tech stuff that i dont understand, but i'm following the bulk of it. I have read arguments in magazines over the years and have some of the original songs questioned and came to similar conclusions, but certainly could never formulate it into any kind of discussion.

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Magic Sam never ceases to amaze me. Zeppelin's critics were left in the dust ages ago and some seem to still be taking offence to the fact that... none of us listened to their garbble. Well done Sam

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First of all, there is a very good chance this is a traditional. Certainly, Page and Plant picked it up from Joan Baez, who credited it as a traditional.

If Anne Briggs has a beef with anyone, it's her.

Actually, Anne Briggs had nothing -- repeat, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING -- to do with BIGLY. Not ever. Will Shade was completely wrong here.

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Will Shade's BS Ripoff Cospiracy part 3

According to Wikipedia, the Yarbirds version was entitled "Knowing I'm Losing You" (?) and the lyrics are completely different except for the verse that begins "Measuring a summers day". This would imply that the chorus is completely original. Sounds like a different tune to me. Of course, none of us can properly attest to this because the song has never been released. Could be a polka and none of us would know. Though lacking in evidence Shade is happy to take the worst possible interpretation- no surprise there.

Actually, the song surfaced a little over a year ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-gSHihi7lE

The "measuring a summer's day" lyric was indeed carried over to "Tangerine", but the rest of the lyrics (including the chorus) are different. And there is no proof that Keith Relf wrote any of those lyrics.

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Thanks for your additions, SD. Now having heard "Knowing That I'm Losing You" it's clear that the lyrics have little or nothing to do with "Tangerine". It seems to me that Jimmy took his contribution and given that the Yardbirds never finished, released or copyrighted the song, felt completely comfortable collaborating with a new partner, never dreaming that using one of his own ideas would get him ripped by a jealous Yardie fanboy.

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Magic Sam never ceases to amaze me. Zeppelin's critics were left in the dust ages ago and some seem to still be taking offence to the fact that... none of us listened to their garbble. Well done Sam

You flatter me. Any zep fan could debunk this stuff with a little research, I'm just more argumentative than most.

:D

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Magic Sam, that was a very nicely done "execution" (hardy har har). I had about a half-page of comments to add but my connection crapped out and the post didn't hit the site.

Basically, I wanted to highlight the alleged "cease and desist order" has never been made

public. I collaborated with Greg Russo on his book 'Yardbirds - The Ultimate Rave-Up! (3rd edition) and it was great experience to go into The Yardbirds world a devout Pageologist.

I think I held up well under the withering fire between Camp Jimmy, Camp Jeff, and Camp

Dreja/McCarty. If anyone asks them or it seems their fans for that matter about the Page-

era Yardbirds you'll get multiple variations of what everyone calls the truth. People would

fire back and forth about did Jeff cry, did Jimmy steal Tangerine for weeks. Jimmy offered

to redo the Anderson Theater release back in '91 and was rebuffed. That tells me there's

still a little bad blood from a business standpoint. There's no doubt all parties concerned

remain friends after all these years.

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if rhythms are fair ground to cry theft, Bo Diddley should just drop whatever he is doing and sue EVERYBODY.

HA! I've been saying this for years! That's classic, Magic Sam.

You mind if I use that for my sig line? Provided I give you fair credit, of course.

Edited by Chrestus
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HA! I've been saying this for years! That's classic, Magic Sam.

You mind if I use that for my sig line? Provided I give you fair credit, of course.

I'm flattered. It ain't my truth, it's a higher truth. Please go right ahead.

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Just to interject a relatively meaningless fact here...

If I'm not mistaken, and its been quite a few years since I've listened to Little Richard with any regularity, but I think the opening drum to "Rock And Roll" is actually lifted from Richard's "Rip It Up" and not "Keep A-Knocking."

That was a great dissection, Sam.

Edited by Chrestus
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Just to interject a relatively meaningless fact here...

If I'm not mistaken, and its been quite a few years since I've listened to Little Richard with any regularity, but I think the opening drum to "Rock And Roll" is actually lifted from Richard's "Rip It Up" and not "Keep A-Knocking."

That was a great dissection, Sam.

Thanks, Chrestus. I'll have to listen to "Rip It Up"- I think there is a story about "Rock and Roll" being based on an improv that started with Bonzo fooling around with the drum intro of a Little Richard song. Can't remember which one, though.

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Thanks Sam for debunking that Theiving Magpies crap- I got into an argument once with somebody who was totally convinced that it was the gospel truth, I just wish that I still was in contact with them so I could print your posts out & really tell them off!

And thanks to Swandown for the "Knowing That I'm Losing You" link- I had heard that the song existed but had never heard it. I think I remember hearing that it was supposed to be on Cumular Limit but Page refused to allow it (or is this another crap rumor?)

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I have the ITTOD song book, and there's a foreword by Paul Gambaccini in which he says:

"Page's interest in ethnic music throughout the world, Bonham's love of auto racing, Plant's romance with the fundamental magic of Britain and Jones' hatred of macaroni cheese- all these are known to Zep devotees!

Well, I consider myself a Zep devotee, and I have never either heard or read anything ever saying that JPJ hates macaroni & cheese. I'd love to hear if anyone knows what he is talking about- I guess there must be a story behind it.

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Maybe someone can solve this mystery for me. On the inside booklet of the cd Zeppelin IV, there is a small picture of what I assume to be an alchemist reading a book. Was this pic ever on the album? Mind you, it's been a long time since I've actually owned a vinyl copy of Zeppelin IV, but I sure don't recall this picture being on it. Although, I have seen the picture somewhere before.

Anyone have a clue?

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Maybe someone can solve this mystery for me. On the inside booklet of the cd Zeppelin IV, there is a small picture of what I assume to be an alchemist reading a book. Was this pic ever on the album? Mind you, it's been a long time since I've actually owned a vinyl copy of Zeppelin IV, but I sure don't recall this picture being on it. Although, I have seen the picture somewhere before.

Anyone have a clue?

If you could post a scan of the picture it may help.

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Maybe someone can solve this mystery for me. On the inside booklet of the cd Zeppelin IV, there is a small picture of what I assume to be an alchemist reading a book. Was this pic ever on the album? Mind you, it's been a long time since I've actually owned a vinyl copy of Zeppelin IV, but I sure don't recall this picture being on it. Although, I have seen the picture somewhere before.

Anyone have a clue?

Yes it was

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