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Al Rock Suth

How The West Was Won Vs The Song Remains The Same OST

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I like both

I dont understand why the TSRTS is so maligned it has some of their best live interpreations of their songs and in many cases i prefer it over the studio version

Just consider:

1)No quarter, Rain Song and The Song remains the sam better than studio version imo

2)STH, Whole lotta Love,Dazed and Confused best live versions of official live relases

How about OTHAFA from expanded versions prefer it over the How the West Was Won version

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BBC Sessions was the first Led Zep stuff I ever heard (other than Whole Lotta Love that is), so like with others that has a special place.

Out of HTWWW and TSRTS, I'd have to say HTWWW - I personally think that it's consistently good across all 3 discs.

With TSRTS, I found that the guys only seemed to get into it from about No Quarter onwards, the tracks prior to that just sound out to me - perhaps No Quarter was when the drugs wore off?! Haha.

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Some songs just happened to come out slightly better on each album. On TSRTS, I like SIBLY, No Quarter, Rain Song, The Ocean, and Stairway, but I like HTWWW better with Dancing Days, Dazed and Confused, WLL, Heartbreaker, Bring it on Home, not to mention the love for a live acoustic set! Which is why I own both and can mix my favorites :) I did enjoy seeing how many people chose BCC sessions! I wish they would've picked 24 different songs rather than 3 Commun Break. but it was cool so see how the band progressed from 69-71.

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Love both, but I chose TSRTS. It was the first Led Zeppelin album I heard. And that version of Rock and Roll. Oh, man...

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Sorry to bust your bubble but there's really not much of a difference Flac's just take more space.

 

Well they sound quite similar to me. I notice no difference even in plant's vocals.

Two people who need to have their ears checked. :blink:

 

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I have to say neither. These days I only listen to Zepp boots where I am getting the real deal - no cuts, no edits flown in from other gigs and no overdubs. I love listening to Zeppelin knowing I'm hearing what the audience heard on that night. It's 'real', mistakes and all. I would happily listen to releases that have had their sound quality significantly improved but not if something like Jimmy's quest for perfection had occurred.
Unofficial recordings are a time capsule as well as a true record of what took place on a given night and the better ones are pure gold to me.

It goes without saying though that I buy every remastered release or new release.

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For me, this is how it is. 

HTWWW is a better performance, for the most part. It's Zeppelin at the top of their game (Live, anyway)

TSRTS is a better Live album, in terms of atmosphere and feel. HTWWW feels a bit 'Dead' to me.

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Funny enough I own all the Zeppelin albums, even bought the complete studio recordings box set, but don't own a Zeppelin live album.

Which one should I get? The Song Remains The Same or How The West Was Won?

 

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Funny enough I own all the Zeppelin albums, even bought the complete studio recordings box set, but don't own a Zeppelin live album.

Which one should I get? The Song Remains The Same or How The West Was Won?

 

Both of them. 

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Both of them. 

Money is kind of tight at the moment, which one should I get first?

And thank you JTM for your quick response.

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Money is kind of tight at the moment, which one should I get first?

And thank you JTM for your quick response.

In that case, flip a coin.

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Money is kind of tight at the moment, which one should I get first?

And thank you JTM for your quick response.

Get the original 1976 version of TSRTS... it goes for peanuts on CD at Amazon, and it'll give you a good taster of Zeppelin live.

And the versions of both 'No Quarter' and 'Dazed and Confused' on it are absolute world-beaters too...

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Get the original 1976 version of TSRTS... it goes for peanuts on CD at Amazon, and it'll give you a good taster of Zeppelin live.

And the versions of both 'No Quarter' and 'Dazed and Confused' on it are absolute world-beaters too...

^ and Celebration Day too!  Much better than the rerelease.

Thank you both, I appreciate it.

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If you guys had the ability to hear live performances of the instrumentals from TSRTS with Robert Plant singing the original melodies with his pre-73/late-72 vocal range, would you be interested? Primarily on songs like "Rock And Roll," "Black Dog," "Over The Hills And Far Away,"  "Stairway To Heaven," "Heartbreaker," and "Whole Lotta Love." Or do you prefer the augmented melodies that Plant sings with his more limited vocal range?

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   I'm late to join this thread but for me it's TSRTS hands down. TSRTS has standout versions of NQ, DAC, STH, NQ, WLL, The Ocean, and CD (the pre-2007 version.) In fact, I would say the versions of STH, DAC and NQ are serious contenders for 'greatest ever' versions. That whole July '73 MSG run has a lovely kind of laid-back intensity to it. The band are hot after a long tour but are also tired and aren't trying too hard. Also, by '73 the band had learnt to just relax and let the music breathe, without pushing it too hard. The spacey jam in OTHAFA  is a prime example.

As for HTWWW; well, I'm not the biggest fan of '72 Zep anyway. They seemed to be in no-man's-land that year between the ferocity of their ealy years, and the expansion of their mid and later years. Somehow these HTWWW performances just don't do much for me.  There is not a single song peformance that is truly one for the ages and there are superior versions to all these songs elsewhere, though the acoustic set is memorable and very nicely captured.

My biggest gripe about HTWWW however, is the sound. Sure, it's clear and punchy, but to my ears, also squashed and artificial. Remember reading an interview with Kevin Shirley in which he disclosed that he'd 'tightened' Bonzo's drum sound a little. Why? Bonzo was a master at tuning his own kit and would, no doubt, have got the exact sound he wanted. The result just sounds annoyingly inorganic and artificial to me.  Also, the vocals seem strangely divorced from the rest of the band somehow. There are at least 10 boots I'd rather be listening to than this.

So, that's my 2 cents worth. Still dreaming of a 3CD Earls Court release this side of 2020.............

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How the West was Won is by far more superior then the Song Remains the Same.  I saw the Garden concert and the back end (finalizing the Led Zeppelin IV tour).  By far the latter was better then the former.

Edited by Led Zep Fred

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7 hours ago, renounce said:

Shirley 'tightened' Bonzo's drum sound a little.

Also, the vocals seem strangely divorced from the rest of the band somehow.

You have great ears.  Caveman referred to restricting "tightening" the drums to a ~range of -45L and +45R which does several things. Primarily the drums no longer step on and compete with the ambience. Surgically applied gating to the individual drum tracks added focus and room to the overall sound. Significant bleed outside of this range covered up some of the performance which then allows the listener to hear the boxiness of the vocals. They were tightened up as well for the same reasons.

Additionally the guitar was sweetened by block eq and parallel dynamic eq throughout. Adds clarity and smooths out some of the signal.  If anyone is a guitar player, the frequencies targeted were roll off under 180hz -24db slope, cut at 505hz Q6, 632 boost Q8, 1.86hz boost Q6, roll off at 6.32 -12db slope.

 

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9 hours ago, renounce said:

   I'm late to join this thread but for me it's TSRTS hands down. TSRTS has standout versions of NQ, DAC, STH, NQ, WLL, The Ocean, and CD (the pre-2007 version.) In fact, I would say the versions of STH, DAC and NQ are serious contenders for 'greatest ever' versions. That whole July '73 MSG run has a lovely kind of laid-back intensity to it. The band are hot after a long tour but are also tired and aren't trying too hard. Also, by '73 the band had learnt to just relax and let the music breathe, without pushing it too hard. The spacey jam in OTHAFA  is a prime example.

As for HTWWW; well, I'm not the biggest fan of '72 Zep anyway. They seemed to be in no-man's-land that year between the ferocity of their ealy years, and the expansion of their mid and later years. Somehow these HTWWW performances just don't do much for me.  There is not a single song peformance that is truly one for the ages and there are superior versions to all these songs elsewhere, though the acoustic set is memorable and very nicely captured.

Brilliant observation and one which I totally agree with. I often listen/watch the Denmark B&W performance or '73 onwards, but that '72 tour is like you say a no-mans land between the raw early years and the refined aesthetics of mid-period Zep. I actually like that Plants voice is lower and he is not screaming as much from '73 onwards, as it suits the material and adds more emotional depth to his singing.

Another factor is that your brain sub-consciously links the SRTS soundtrack to the footage in the movie. So you have a strong visual reference, which is not there for HTWWW. 

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15 hours ago, Dallas Knebs said:

You have great ears.  Caveman referred to restricting "tightening" the drums to a ~range of -45L and +45R which does several things. Primarily the drums no longer step on and compete with the ambience. Surgically applied gating to the individual drum tracks added focus and room to the overall sound. Significant bleed outside of this range covered up some of the performance which then allows the listener to hear the boxiness of the vocals. They were tightened up as well for the same reasons.

Additionally the guitar was sweetened by block eq and parallel dynamic eq throughout. Adds clarity and smooths out some of the signal.  If anyone is a guitar player, the frequencies targeted were roll off under 180hz -24db slope, cut at 505hz Q6, 632 boost Q8, 1.86hz boost Q6, roll off at 6.32 -12db slope.

 

Thank you for this technical info. I would be interested to hear your view on the actual result of Caveman's work. To my ears, like I said, HTTTW sounds over-processed and unnatural. Bonzo's drums, for example, sound super-charged in a way that falsifies his actual sound rather than enhances it. For me, I want to hear what Bonzo actually played on those nights as he was a master at getting the sound that he wanted from his kit, rather than a sound-engineer's adjustments decades later, but perhaps I am ignorant of the process of making good live records.  Having said that, I actually really like the 2007 TSRTS (apart from the edits of course) as it still sounds natural.

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13 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

Brilliant observation and one which I totally agree with. I often listen/watch the Denmark B&W performance or '73 onwards, but that '72 tour is like you say a no-mans land between the raw early years and the refined aesthetics of mid-period Zep. I actually like that Plants voice is lower and he is not screaming as much from '73 onwards, as it suits the material and adds more emotional depth to his singing.

Another factor is that your brain sub-consciously links the SRTS soundtrack to the footage in the movie. So you have a strong visual reference, which is not there for HTWWW. 

Totally agree about preferring the mellower '73 Plant. His vocals on HTWWW are often a tough listen. '77 is my favourite year for him, so much power and command.

 

Interesting point about the visuals. True, when I hear the TSRTS version of Stairway I do automatically think of the mirrorball, the double-neck, the yellow spotlights etc, and it does enhance the music. Got me wondering how our perception of the HTWWW shows might be different if we had pro-footage to go with them.

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1 hour ago, renounce said:

 ...your view on the actual result of Caveman's work...

well... he got paid. 

I think it speaks volumes that John Davis is doing LZ, Page and Yardbirds work.  Caveman at that moment was a solid pick, else he would not have been employed. Technically, Caveman did what he was asked to do by the guy paying him to do it, at no point did that include pleasing and meeting the critiquing expectations of fans.

"Wow listen to the clarity, the mud is gone wow listen to the chink and transients on the bass..." and it is impressive, Caveman did a solid job.  Taking analog to digital tho is going to have a downside.  The toms on the kit tell the entire story.  At some points it's like a mic was dropped inside a tupperware container.

With Caveman's work, the apparent level, relative level and perceived level [humans hear in averaged btw] are as high as -0.2db rather than bumping along around -6db and breathing/expanding up and down.  Not much room to breathe when the range is so narrow and already at the top.

Contrary to urban legend, Caveman did not push/compress/chop the signals excessively.  Had he done that the noise floor would have come up so high as to be a huge distraction. 

For me, what I will tell you is that I prefer the original releases on vinyl.  Folks who have never owned a turntable have not experienced the expansion that occurs when you crank an LP and that sizzle and glow happens. It's not possible in the digital realm.  LZ vinyl was produced in a way to allow the listener to crank it.  CD/stream are pre-cranked typically about 6db to 9db hotter than mid-70x levels- and the RMS is still getting louder.

When you opened Presence for the first time and the intro to ALS started...  then For Your Life.  Beyond brilliant.  LZ is amazing in that with the headphones on you could hear so much going on.  The placement and movement within each section of a song- then looking at each side of the LP as a whole, the artistry is unmatched thru the entire catalog.

I enjoy HTWWW, it seems to take some effort tho.

PS... Not much is said about the Celebration Day release in 2012, especially the night and day differences between the blu-ray and the CDs.   Alan Moulder's work on Celebration Day is fantastic considering what he was given. Once he received instruction on the sound of the band, the outcome was LZ 2007.  The digital product is ok and the vinyl is really close. My ears do not feel like someone is hitting my eardrums with an icepick after about 2minutes of listening. 

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It's a tough call for me on which one of these I prefer. On the one hand, HTWWW feels more like a complete concert, while TSRTS is more like just a collection of live tracks. HTWWW has the acoustic set, which I love, and the WLL medley, which has always been my favorite part of Zeppelin's concerts. Also Plant's voice is stronger, which is a plus. On the other hand, some of the tracks on TSRTS kick the ass of what's on HTWWW. No Quarter, TSRTS, The Rain Song...there's nothing on HTWWW that even compares to that. Dazed and Confused on TSRTS just kills the version on HTWWW. About the only track off the top of my head that I prefer the HTWWW version is Rock and Roll, which I think is more up tempo and better sung.

So I think the correct answer is to get them both and listen to each daily. :)

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On 29/08/2016 at 6:54 PM, Dallas Knebs said:

For me, what I will tell you is that I prefer the original releases on vinyl.  Folks who have never owned a turntable have not experienced the expansion that occurs when you crank an LP and that sizzle and glow happens. It's not possible in the digital realm.  LZ vinyl was produced in a way to allow the listener to crank it.  CD/stream are pre-cranked typically about 6db to 9db hotter than mid-70x levels- and the RMS is still getting louder.

When you opened Presence for the first time and the intro to ALS started...  then For Your Life.  Beyond brilliant.  LZ is amazing in that with the headphones on you could hear so much going on.  The placement and movement within each section of a song- then looking at each side of the LP as a whole, the artistry is unmatched thru the entire catalog.

This, absolutely this... Zeppelin have and always will sound better on analog-sourced vinyl; the new remasters sound genuinely great - the vinyl editions especially - but you simply cannot replicate the expansive dynamic warmth of an analog recording in digitized 1's and 0's, no matter how good the remastering or the engineer, it's a fact of nature.

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