A Brilliant Quote

[Nathan]

This comes from one of my favorite teachers, Michael McClary, Music Professor at Georgia Perimeter College, Dunwoody Campus:

"Faith is a miracle of the human species. Religion is a multi-hundred-billion dollar tax-free organization."

Discuss.

[wanna be drummer]

Sort of insulting to organized religions...but I suppose it's technically correct

[Nathan]

Sort of insulting to organized religions...but I suppose it's technically correct

It's only going to be insulting to anyone who doesn't want to admit it's true. Try this:

Go to your favorite place of worship and ask 'em What, When, Why, How, and How Much. If you get either ( a ) a look of hostility or ( b ) a rehearsed, "pre-recorded message," then you have just seen the proof for yourself. Go shopping elsewhere.

Faith is an amazing thing, my friend. The ability to believe in something you can't prove... it is truly beautiful and wonderful and strange.

Religion is just a way to make money off of faith without having to pay taxes.

And BTW, I say this as a proud Jew.

[wanna be drummer]

It's only going to be insulting to anyone who doesn't want to admit it's true. Try this:

Go to your favorite place of worship and ask 'em What, When, Why, How, and How Much. If you get either ( a ) a look of hostility or ( b ) a rehearsed, "pre-recorded message," then you have just seen the proof for yourself. Go shopping elsewhere.

Faith is an amazing thing, my friend. The ability to believe in something you can't prove... it is truly beautiful and wonderful and strange.

Religion is just a way to make money off of faith without having to pay taxes.

And BTW, I say this as a proud Jew.

I realize that religions around the world make billions of dollars every year. But, how else do you expect them to run? Nothing can run without money. And it's not like they horde it all for themselves (save Scientology I guess). Religions pour more money into charity than anything else in the world. Religions send people around the world to cure diseases, help the sick and give relief to the poor. Some of the world's greatest people have been the religious who unselfishly dedicate their lives to helping others.

Yes, religions make money, but they have to in order to run and function. Faith without religion is simply agnosticism.

[Virginia]

I have faith and believe in Roman Catholic theology; however I'm not currently a practicing Catholic because I'm not on board with the organized religion part.

[Nathan]

I realize that religions around the world make billions of dollars every year. But, how else do you expect them to run? Nothing can run without money. And it's not like they horde it all for themselves (save Scientology I guess). Religions pour more money into charity than anything else in the world. Religions send people around the world to cure diseases, help the sick and give relief to the poor. Some of the world's greatest people have been the religious who unselfishly dedicate their lives to helping others.

Have you been to the Vatican, perchance?

That's a nice place, there. Pretty rich kinda place, don't you think?

There's this church in Dacula County, GA. Little thing, boarded up, in need of major repair... little community hole. Across the street isn't a church... it's a tiny little Carnival-like town called a church. It's got an entrance gate, more then one building, it's own court-yard... won't be long 'til it has a moat. No clue what their denomination is, but there you go.

And you have have to wonder... how much of that money could have saved a few kids in a third-world country?

Yeah... pretty charitable.

Oh, and it ain't just Christians. You know how expensive it is to keep truly Kosher for a Jew? The people who inspect foods to ensure that they are Kosher are Rabbis... most are already making between $90 and $120 grand a year (or monetary-equivalent in other countries). They don't need the extra money to go to a butcher and read a list! And have you seen Synagogues these days? Went in one recently with a gold-like interior. How much of that money could have gone to charity... and all that's from the religion that calls charity one of God's commandments!

And don't get me started on Mosques. Last Mosque I went into is appraised so high Bill Gates ain't rich enough to buy it (supposedly).

Obviously this ain't true for every sect and worshiper of the particular religion, but in the end, religion is not a faith... it's a business... a tax-free business. Has been since before the Roman Empire, and will be 'til Earth wipes itself clean of us.

And I ask, why should religion be an organization? Faith is free, is it not? Obviously you want to have a building to meet in... I got no problem with paying small membership fees and such to keep a worship building up and running, but when you start turning you place of worship into a castle, then it's time to wonder just how well that money is being put to use...

Yes, religions make money, but they have to in order to run and function. Faith without religion is simply agnosticism.

No... faith without a guide is agnosticism. I use the Jewish doctrine as my guide and proudly proclaim myself a Jew as far as that. I love praying at a (Conservative) Jewish Service, and I dream of praying at the Wailing Wall. But you be damn sure you'll never see me affiliating myself with any organized religion.

I have faith and believe in Roman Catholic theology; however I'm not currently a practicing Catholic because I'm not on board with the organized religion part.

Is Virginia agnostic, wanna be drummer?

Didn't think so.

[docron]

Is being agnostic a religion?

I don't think religion has been useful since the 1700's. Actually, I can't think of a time when religion has EVER been useful.

Someone prove me otherwise.

[Nathan]

Is being agnostic a religion?

No. It means you believe in some kind of higher power, but you reject any and all religious doctrine and you really can't "define" that higher power.

Basically... one step away from Atheism...

[Jarlaxle 56]

No. It means you believe in some kind of higher power, but you reject any and all religious doctrine and you really can't "define" that higher power.

Basically... one step away from Atheism...

I'd say it's more like you refuse to believe in a higher power but you don't actively deny that there is a higher power. Being one, I think I should know my own beliefs

What you're looking for is deism, they believe in a higher power but that god has no special relationship with the planet earth, and merely created it but doesn't interfere with it's workings.

[Nathan]

I'd say it's more like you refuse to believe in a higher power but you don't actively deny that there is a higher power. Being one, I think I should know my own beliefs

What you're looking for is deism, they believe in a higher power but that god has no special relationship with the planet earth, and merely created it but doesn't interfere with it's workings.

Ah! Thanks! I tend to confuse the two...

[Jarlaxle 56]

Ah! Thanks! I tend to confuse the two...

No problem, I tend to confuse things quite a bit myself.

On topic:

Organized religion will always be corrupt on some sort of level, most religions have some fantastic ideals. However most of these ideals are squashed when someone tries to manipulate their followers into doing their will for their gain. Bit sad really, and I think part of it has to do with the easy interpretation of religious texts.

I'll admit sects like the Catholic church seem pretty stupid to me, why do they need a bishop or a pope to be a Christian? Doesn't make a grain of sense, everyone should be treated equally.

[Dzldoc]

I've never practiced but having been from a catholic family, I watched in astonishment over the years all the scandals with the church and it just turned me off.

But the thing that really pissed on my shoes for good was after Hurricane Katrina

The Arch Bishop of New Orleans sat in on a local news station interview with an angry tone and pissed off look on his face because FEMA woudn't give them more finacial aid

to cover the damages to the area churches.

Remember the church is self insured.

He went on to point out how much they had reached out to the community to help out those in need.

Well hell!, it isn't helping out if you want to be re-embersed is it?

I didn't know whether I was shocked or disgusted

[longdistancewinner]

I gave up on religion a long time ago. It's always been (society-wise) one rule for me and another for you (not literally).

Religion needs money and in my country, unless you're of a certain religion, you're up shit creek.

I knew something wasn't right when my grandfather was buried in a cemetery that had over 600 headstones desecreted. I don't even know whether his is one of them because I can't go there - they closed it because of years of abuse. I need an appointment. I can't pay my respects to him. And that's heartbreaking. Yet nothing has been done about the cemetery. And what a beautiful Jewish cemetery it once was.

All of my family's local Synagogues are no longer so - they are now Mosques or Asion clothes shops. My family's faith was once the pillar of their community and now it is now more.

Yet, with all the old churches in villages near me, plenty are no longer in use - many had their last burials in the 1800's. Still, they are prestine as ever. Maintenance is always right on time. Grass is always cut.

There were more headstone's desecreted in my grandfather's cemetery than there are people living in some of these villages.

So, yeah. Religion got me a little jaded. It's never been that equal to me. Faith I can do. Religion, not so much.

[wanna be drummer]

Have you been to the Vatican, perchance?

That's a nice place, there. Pretty rich kinda place, don't you think?

There's this church in Dacula County, GA. Little thing, boarded up, in need of major repair... little community hole. Across the street isn't a church... it's a tiny little Carnival-like town called a church. It's got an entrance gate, more then one building, it's own court-yard... won't be long 'til it has a moat. No clue what their denomination is, but there you go.

And you have have to wonder... how much of that money could have saved a few kids in a third-world country?

Yeah... pretty charitable.

Oh please, the Catholic Church is damn charitable. Yes, the Vatican is big and expensive, I'll give ya that.ut how much money has it donated throughout the years? More than anybody else

How many people have they helped or given relief to? More than anyone else

How many charities give more money every single year to helping the poor and the sick and the dying? Zero

yeah, pretty charitable

Oh, and it ain't just Christians. You know how expensive it is to keep truly Kosher for a Jew? The people who inspect foods to ensure that they are Kosher are Rabbis... most are already making between $90 and $120 grand a year (or monetary-equivalent in other countries). They don't need the extra money to go to a butcher and read a list! And have you seen Synagogues these days? Went in one recently with a gold-like interior. How much of that money could have gone to charity... and all that's from the religion that calls charity one of God's commandments!

You can't expect every dime of their money to go straight to somebody else.

If the inside looks grand, enjoy the beauty, but know that the synagogue or Church or temple, etc. has probably spent a lot of time helping those in need.

That said, I'm ashamed of these megachurches that we see today. Those places are jokes. Its all about money.

"Give me your money and praise the Lord and you'll go to Heaven!"

"Ok"

Those places are sickening

And don't get me started on Mosques. Last Mosque I went into is appraised so high Bill Gates ain't rich enough to buy it (supposedly).

Mosques are usually pretty cool looking IMO.

Obviously this ain't true for every sect and worshiper of the particular religion, but in the end, religion is not a faith... it's a business... a tax-free business. Has been since before the Roman Empire, and will be 'til Earth wipes itself clean of us.

Aspects of it are yes. But in the whole grand scheme things, I strongly disagree

And I ask, why should religion be an organization? Faith is free, is it not? Obviously you want to have a building to meet in... I got no problem with paying small membership fees and such to keep a worship building up and running, but when you start turning you place of worship into a castle, then it's time to wonder just how well that money is being put to use...

Why? Because I like what my Catholic Churchn does for the world. I know that my money (maybe not all of it, but some) goes to feeding the sick and dressing the poor. It sends missionaries out to countries like Sudan and India who clothe the diseased when no one else will. I like to know that I can donate my clothes to the local Salvation Army and someone in need will have something for the winter. I know my money will help set up soup kitchens and free hospitals.

That, my friend, is why I think Religion needs to be organized and why you need more than a simple building to meet in to call yourself a religion.

No... faith without a guide is agnosticism. I use the Jewish doctrine as my guide and proudly proclaim myself a Jew as far as that. I love praying at a (Conservative) Jewish Service, and I dream of praying at the Wailing Wall. But you be damn sure you'll never see me affiliating myself with any organized religion.

Is Virginia agnostic, wanna be drummer?

Didn't think so.

No she's certainly not agnostic. You misinterpreted what I said but I can see how, I didn't really state what I meant, my bad.

Here's another go. I thought you were saying that faith itself is enough, that you don't have to believe in any religion, just have faith that something else is out there. Virginia said that she may not go to Catholic mass or whatever, but she still has their beliefs. I call her Catholic. That is certainly not agnostic. That is, however, a religion. The Catholic teachings are the basis of the religion, and in essence, are the religion. She may not attend the mass or like the aspect of Catholicism being organized, but if it were not, she may not even know what Catholicism is. Religions exist today because they are organized. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, etc. probably would not even be remembered any more if they weren't organized in some way...IMO anyways.

It's complicated, but I think organization is key to continuing the faiths we have today. But that's just my thinking I guess

[docron]

No. It means you believe in some kind of higher power, but you reject any and all religious doctrine and you really can't "define" that higher power.

Basically... one step away from Atheism...

I know what it is... I am one! I think of it a bit differently though, as being un-committed to an opinion about the existence of a god or it's related.

I was just wondering if the fact that I don't believe either way makes me in fact believe... you know, double-negative style...

[Virginia]

No she's certainly not agnostic. You misinterpreted what I said but I can see how, I didn't really state what I meant, my bad.

Here's another go. I thought you were saying that faith itself is enough, that you don't have to believe in any religion, just have faith that something else is out there. Virginia said that she may not go to Catholic mass or whatever, but she still has their beliefs. I call her Catholic. That is certainly not agnostic. That is, however, a religion. The Catholic teachings are the basis of the religion, and in essence, are the religion. She may not attend the mass or like the aspect of Catholicism being organized, but if it were not, she may not even know what Catholicism is. Religions exist today because they are organized. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, etc. probably would not even be remembered any more if they weren't organized in some way...IMO anyways.

It's complicated, but I think organization is key to continuing the faiths we have today. But that's just my thinking I guess

In a nutshell, I was raised Catholic and practiced until about 7-8 years ago. A very liberal, Godspell-like Catholicism growing up. I became very disillusioned after the abuse scandals and on top of that couldn't find a parish locally that either was located conveniently nearby or wasn't sending out tithing letters

But yet I feel I'm too Catholic to join a church of another denomination.

[Nathan]

wanna be drummer:

http://www.doughroller.net/smart-spending/...urch-a-charity/

[Aquamarine]

What's this? An intelligent and interesting thread on a controversial topic in which people debate in a civilized manner without resorting to personal insults?

Have I come to the right board?

[wanna be drummer]

wanna be drummer:

http://www.doughroller.net/smart-spending/...urch-a-charity/

That was a damn good article, thanks for sharing. And that's my problem with these enormous megachurches, they don't give anything back to the community but they take from it, everything.

I'd just like to point out that I am fully aware that not all religions or religious groups give back to the world. But the big ones do. Catholcism, Judaism, Buddhism (although I consider it a phiolosophy rather than a religion), etc. do give great contributions to world by providing relief in the form of clothes, money, food, shelter, etc.

But yes, many have lost the way...namely those stupidass megachurches

What's this? An intelligent and interesting thread on a controversial topic in which people debate in a civilized manner without resorting to personal insults?

Have I come to the right board?

You can thank Nathan for that. He's an intelligent poster who, to my knowledge, hasn't ever bitched anybody out in a debate or anything (Lord knows I have..)

Plus he's Jewish

[Aquamarine]

Yes, I know Nathan of old--I once rescued him from the abyss, but that's another story. Anyway, good job on the thread.

[Zepaholic]

My faith is deeply personal and i believe that God would prefer it that way.

I tend to stay away from organized ANYTHING.

[Nathan]

What's this? An intelligent and interesting thread on a controversial topic in which people debate in a civilized manner without resorting to personal insults?

Have I come to the right board?

I think so... maybe?

That was a damn good article, thanks for sharing. And that's my problem with these enormous megachurches, they don't give anything back to the community but they take from it, everything.

No problem. And I agree completely. Megachurches are, IMO, the biggest criminals.

I'd just like to point out that I am fully aware that not all religions or religious groups give back to the world. But the big ones do. Catholcism, Judaism, Buddhism (although I consider it a phiolosophy rather than a religion), etc. do give great contributions to world by providing relief in the form of clothes, money, food, shelter, etc.

I'm not denying that they give back. I'm aware that they do.

But they could give back more. Sometimes our places of worship are built way to lavishly. To me it says they're forgetting their beginnings.

Moses didn't preach in a Temple. He preached in a tent, on a mountain, in a desert. Jesus (for those who believe in him) didn't preach in a Cathedral. He preached outside, in tents... even in caves.

Now, I'm not saying these are the kind of places we should be praying in. Personally, I do enjoy praying in air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter. That said, you don't need lavish adornments for your building, and you don't need to have a building so big New York City could live inside of it.

That's just over-doing it, and what could all of that money go for that actually matters?

But yes, many have lost the way...namely those stupidass megachurches

Yeah, they are...

You can thank Nathan for that. He's an intelligent poster who, to my knowledge, hasn't ever bitched anybody out in a debate or anything (Lord knows I have..)

Thanks...

Plus he's Jewish

LOL

And damn proud of it!

Yes, I know Nathan of old--I once rescued him from the abyss, but that's another story. Anyway, good job on the thread.

Haha... yes, you did...

And, ironically, I was the one trying to save you... all well... thanks anyways...

[59LesPaul]

What's this? An intelligent and interesting thread on a controversial topic in which people debate in a civilized manner without resorting to personal insults?

Give it time......

[Nathan]

Give it time......

Won't happen on my thread.

At least... it better not. We have to try and get along... at least on this subject.

[kabbalahone]

This comes from one of my favorite teachers, Michael McClary, Music Professor at Georgia Perimeter College, Dunwoody Campus:

"Faith is a miracle of the human species. Religion is a multi-hundred-billion dollar tax-free organization."

Discuss.

If I code the word faith, I get fait (to do in french), h for Hey is a Hebrew letter which looks like an entrance, a door. So the essence of walking through the door. The Hebrew word that symbolizes life is Chai, which is a Hey and a Yud. That pretty well sums it up eh?