Old Scratch Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) Before I spend all my energy speaking out against a law that is centuries older than me, perhaps I should consider what might persuade someone from carrying out extreme penalties that shock my conscience, and to adopt a more lenient position. SPEAK UP FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS. SPEAK OUT AGAINST SHARIA LAW. Adopt nothing but the uncompromised end to the oppression, injustice and violence. NOW. ~666 Edited December 3, 2007 by Old Scratch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KashmirDevi Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Lets just cut to the quick with this. The bottom line is that the Muslim culture (I'm speaking of the Mid-East Islamic zealot countries) is not consciously evolved enough to understand that there are may paths. Instead they are stuck in fight or flight consciousness. They rather kill what they don't understand... Nothing will ever change there until they as a culture reach that conscious maturity. And sadly I NEVER see that happening, not in my lifetime. I have no love loss for that part of the Muslim world. NONE. I hope I didn't offend our Muslim members on this board, hopefully you can be a generation that brings change and move out of this archaic mindset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 eternal light,.. I'd appreciate it if you would get away, for just a moment, from all the wikipedia quotes as the basis of your argument. I'd find it much more illuminating to hear from you how you personally interpret the dogma of Islam and how that instructs your life. Do you value gender equality? Do you condone violence against those who don't embrace Islam? Do you think someone deserves to imprisoned and deported for naming a toy "Mohammed"? Do you condone the practice of stoning people to death? Do you condone the intentional killing of innocent civilians as a tactic in religious conflict? In other words do you support the idea of "jihad" in which religious leaders declare religious war and in which the slaughter of innocent civilians is not only condoned but specifically called for? Where do YOU stand on these issues? fwiw,.. I don't begrudge you your right to practice the religion of your choice, and I don't assume that all Muslims condone violence. I am intrigued (and befuddled) though by the fact that Muslims who claim to oppose violence and who claim to espouse peace and love can't seem to bring themselves to condemn those aspects of Sharia law that clearly contradict the values they claim to hold. Maybe you can shed some light on this for me, eh? [you might recognize from a previous comment I made that I am equally befuddled by Christians who support capital punishment while at the same time they claim to value the sanctity of all life] I look forward to hearing more about where YOU stand on these issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scratch Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) Lets just cut to the quick with this. The bottom line is that the Muslim culture (I'm speaking of the Mid-East Islamic zealot countries) ... What about East Asian counties ... MALAYSIA, INDONESIA, PHILIPPINES .... and South Asian countries ... BANGLADESH, INDIA, PAKISTAN, SRI LANKA... and African counties ... SUDAN, EGYPT, LIBYA ...? It's not "Mid-East Islamic zealot countries". It's not just Arabs and Persians. It's ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM. ~666 Edited December 3, 2007 by Old Scratch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KashmirDevi Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 What about East Asian counties ... MALAYSIA, INDONESIA, PHILIPPINES .... and South Asian countries ... BANGLADESH, INDIA, PAKISTAN, SRI LANKA... what about African counties ... SUDAN, EGYPT, LIBYA ... It's not Arabs. It's ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM. ~666 Well add the lot of them into that comment too. It's a religion that preaches hate, so in my opinion it's not a valid religion. PERIOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Acknowledging the areas of the law that shock the conscience, where is the area of agreement? Before the 19th century, legal theory was considered the domain of the traditional legal schools of thought. Most Sunni Muslims follow Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki or Shafii, while most Shia Muslims follow Twelvers (Hallaq 1997, Brown 1996, Aslan 2006). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scratch Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Acknowledging the areas of the law that shock the conscience, where is the area of agreement? I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please clarify what you are trying to say? ~666 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KashmirDevi Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) I'm with Hermit on Eternal Light's wiki quotes. *yawn* What is YOUR opinion Eternal Light.... Edited December 3, 2007 by KashmirDevi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlaxle 56 Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Well add the lot of them into that comment too. It's a religion that preaches hate, so in my opinion it's not a valid religion. PERIOD. Exactly, and this is coming from an agnostic who doesn't believe in any religion, so I don't think you can call me biased because I'm a Christian or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Do you value gender equality? Certainly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Acknowledging the areas of the law that shock the conscience, where is the area of agreement? obviously the areas of agreement are not problematic; its the parts of Sharia law that "shock the conscience" that are problematic. Why am I not very surprised that you're avoiding addressing those "shock the conscience" issues? I ask again.. Do you value gender equality? Do you condone violence against those who don't embrace Islam? Do you think someone deserves to imprisoned and deported for naming a toy "Mohammed"? Do you condone the practice of stoning people to death? Do you condone the intentional killing of innocent civilians as a tactic in religious conflict? In other words do you support the idea of "jihad" in which religious leaders declare religious war and in which the slaughter of innocent civilians is not only condoned but specifically called for? *..not holding my breath for a direct response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scratch Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) obviously the areas of agreement are not problematic; its the parts of Sharia law that "shock the conscience" that are problematic. Why am I not very surprised that you're avoiding addressing those "shock the conscience" issues? I ask again.. *..not holding my breath for a direct response. Hermit ... I really don't think it is fair to hound her. She has heard the arguments ... if she doesn't want to respond directly, that is her choice. She's not on trial. I'll leave that to the mullahs. The Truth speaks for itself. Unfortunately, not all listen. But that is their choice. And Karma. ~666 Edited December 3, 2007 by Old Scratch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Certainly. Thank you for the answer, albeit a rather pithy response that isn't very illuminating with regard to how you reconcile that value with your support for Sharia law. How do you reconcile valuing gender equality with your belief in Sharia law? And what about jihad and the killing of innocent civilians.. do you support that? And the practice of stoning people to death.. do you support that? I appreciate that you're participating in this discussion, eternal light, and I'm sincerely interested in better understanding where you're coming from. One of my values is the value of critically analyzing my beliefs. I don't know if you value critically analyzing your beliefs; its entirely possible your value may be in holding onto your beliefs without critical analysis ever entering into your process. If your value is to hold onto your beliefs at all cost, that would shed some light for me on your unwillingness to explore/address/discuss some of the tougher questions being asked of you. Whether you're interested in exploring your beliefs in detail.. exposing and reconciling apparent contradictions and whatnot.. or not, please know that I wish you no ill will whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scratch Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Naseem!! ~666 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Zeppnile Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Lets just cut to the quick with this. The bottom line is that the Muslim culture (I'm speaking of the Mid-East Islamic zealot countries) is not consciously evolved enough to understand that there are may paths. Instead they are stuck in fight or flight consciousness. They rather kill what they don't understand... Nothing will ever change there until they as a culture reach that conscious maturity. And sadly I NEVER see that happening, not in my lifetime. I have no love loss for that part of the Muslim world. NONE. I hope I didn't offend our Muslim members on this board, hopefully you can be a generation that brings change and move out of this archaic mindset. Christians do not believe that "there are many paths" either. Is there a lack of "conscious evolution" with them too? I may agree that there is a lack of something with Islam, however I don't believe it is with their 'one path theology' but rather their 'wrong path theology.' I believe their problem is mainly with the perversion of the prophecies and scriptures which preceded Mohamed. They followed false teaching right from the start. There own theology can not even stand up on it's many contradictions to the prophecies which they claim to have sprung from. You can't acknowledge Moses, Abraham, Issac, Joseph and Jesus as being from GOD, and then reject them and their followers entirely as being not from GOD... it makes no sense. And the history of Islam instead turns out to be one of conquest and conversion at the point of a sword... aka Jihad. If Christianity has had any 'evolution of consciesness' in it's history, it is that the battle is a sprirtual one and not a physical one. It is not a phyisical 'Jihad/holy war' but rather a battle to convert through ways that are not by violence and force. I know many people are going to say that is not the entire history, but they can't argue that based on THE SCRIPTURES of Christianity, that is not what was commanded right from the start. And as Scratch pointed out in a previous post, Islam cannot make that same claim. Because Islam requires it's followers (as stated in it's scriptures) to convert or kill those who is conquers. [you might recognize from a previous comment I made that I am equally befuddled by Christians who support capital punishment while at the same time they claim to value the sanctity of all life] My answer to this is that a distinction is made between a life that is found to be guilty of the worst possible crimes (murder, rape, child molesting) or those lives which we must all agree are innocent. Children, babies, people with diminished capacities. And since Christians (although not all agree with capital punishment) believe that there is a moral government in the universe (i.e. God and his laws) that for those worst offenders in the universe, there needs to be punishment for wrong deeds in accordance with the severity of those deeds. There is a sanctity attached to all human life. But we don't take that to mean that in some situations that it is strictly forbidden to take a human life. The punitive act of capital punishment is for the purpose of establishing a balance in the scales of justice. Otherwise there is no justice for the worst possible crimes against the innocent. We beleive that this is a requirement based on our recognition of a universal morality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Christians do not believe that "there are many paths" either. Is there a lack of "conscious evolution" with them too? Do Christians believe in evolution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scratch Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) Del ... To argue the superiority of Christianity right now is to divide those of us (including you) who want to denounce Islamic Fundamentalism. It's counterproductive to this thread .... and the cause. But ... flame on ... if that is what is most important to you.... ~666 Edited December 3, 2007 by Old Scratch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scratch Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) Do Christians believe in evolution? Cease and desist, Herm. Pick your battles. One against murder for apostacy, oppression and misogyny; over one of mere indignant self-righteousness. Comprende? ~666 Edited December 3, 2007 by Old Scratch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 What we need is to find alternative and environmentally safe means of energy. Think about it. Most of the world's polution is caused by petroleum fuel. And who sells us that shit? On whom are we dependent for the fuel that destroys our environment? Islamic countries. I'm seriously thinking, for the time being, of buying a diesel powered truck. I never new it before ... but regular diesel automobiles will run on fry grease (super-filtered, of course) ... without modification. That should do until we get wise enough to create efficient and affordable hydrogen or electric cars ... Then we can work on stopping global warming and get our environment healthy again ... and leave those savages to sell dates and make afghan quilts. ~666 This post makes a lot of sense to me. Now if we can just get the government in on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrZoSo Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Just dropped a few kids off at the pool. Named them all..Muhammad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Thank you for the answer, albeit a rather pithy response that isn't very illuminating with regard to how you reconcile that value with your support for Sharia law. My what? I think of it as a healthy, non-judgemental curiosity about something I know very little about. I doubt anyone on this message board is a scholar of Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 My what? I think of it as a healthy, non-judgemental curiosity about something I know very little about. I doubt anyone on this message board is a scholar of Islam. oh, ok. I thought you were a Muslim. You seemed to be expressing your support for Islam and Sharia law. I guess you were merely playing.. uhh.. 'devil's advocate', eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 oh, ok. I thought you were a Muslim. You seemed to be expressing your support for Islam and Sharia law. I guess you were merely playing.. uhh.. 'devil's advocate', eh? I think of it as learning about something I know very little about without prejudice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I think of it as learning about something I know very little about without prejudice. What do you need to "learn" about Islam in order to take a position on whether or not you support the Islamic response of imprisoning and then deporting a woman for nothing more than naming her teddy bear "Mohammed"? What do you need to "learn" about Islam in oder to take a position on whether or not you support the practice of stoning people to death, and the killing of innocent civilians as directed by the declaration of "jihad" by Islamic clerics? Are not able to take a position on those issues simply based on your own sense of conscience? Is there anything you could "learn" about Islam that would result in you supporting those practices? On the other hand, if you don't recognize that Islam is a religion that both condone and demands violence in many circumstances.. and if you don't recognize that Sharia law does NOT value gender equality.. then apparently you do have a lot to learn. I support you in your quest to educate yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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