All this over a stupid Teddy Bear...

[wanna be drummer]

I find it really, really sad that so many people have died,

and continue to die, over this notion of "the Holy Land".

Afaic, the whole planet is holy land.

I feel bad for the death fought over the Holy Land Hermit, but the Holy Land is justly named. Three of the world's great religions sprang from that tiny piece of land. I'm not saying it's important that a certain people inhabit it or that its the only important land in the world, rather, I'm acknowledging it's importance.

While your statement of the whole world being holy is true, I simply think some places are holier than others. Rome is holier than Sterling Heights, Michigan I think.

But thats just me rambling

[MS1]

First of all, Sam....

I have been stating that.

Look at my sig.

But a little more sublimely, I suppose, is the fact that to criticize Sharia is to criticize Islam itself; because what is Sharia but drawn from the Koran and Hadith?

And no truly devout muslim would criticize the Koran, because it is the direct word of God; nor would he question the Prophet because he is the example of The Exemplary Man.

Government, Law and Religion are so intrinsically entwined in Islam that it makes it extremely difficult to untangle them without being guilty of apostacy. Mohammed was no mere prophet. He was a Statesman, Diplomat and a Warrior. His religion was not merely based on the revelation of God; he created a system that dictated the very social and economic fabric of his followers... and sanctified every aspect of those followers lives, rule, custom ... even personal hygiene ... as a matter of God's command.

It will be a great challenge for secular muslims to try and practice their faith as it was founded (and meant to be practiced) ... and still be able to reconcile these issues.

~666

Well, I hadn't noticed your sig. Fair enough.

To the larger point: there are all kinds of things in the Old Testament that can't be practiced within the constraints of a civilized society, either. I place Fundamentalist Christianity's bigotry against gays in the same box as Muslim intolerance of women and non-muslims; although I certainly acknowledge that it is far less severe, it comes from the same place: the attempt to try and fit the square peg of desert tribal religion into the round hole of the 21st century without reform.

Freudian metaphor intended.

Still think that you should avoid using the term Islam in your condemnations without a qualifier. Would you like me to judge all Indian religions by the pushy asshole who tried to sell me the Bhagavad Gita at the train station the other day?

[Old Scratch]

Still think that you should avoid using the term Islam in your condemnations without a qualifier.

Fair enough. I shall specify by saying Islamic Fundamentalist Extremism, Violent Jihad, or Sharia Law from now on.

Would you like me to judge all Indian religions by the pushy asshole who tried to sell me the Bhagavad Gita at the train station the other day?

Hare Krishnas, actually, are not Hindus.

One that note ...

I went to a Hare Krishna Temple for Janmashtami (Krishna's Birthday) with my Pandit's wife.

She wanted me to have that experience.

Plus ... they have the best vegetarian food in town.

But once they started the preaching ... we scrammed.

The Hindus I know usually say the same thing ... that they are nice people and have great food ... but try to ignore the bullshit if you visit.

Just FYI - HINDUS DO NOT PREACH. Not even in the Mandir. You do not hear sermons or preaching.

Anyway ... judge "Indian" religions as you will

Just know I practice Hindu Dharma ... I'm not a Jain, Sikh or Buddhist.

~666

[MS1]

Fair enough. I shall specify by saying Islamic Fundamentalist Extremism, Violent Jihad, or Sharia Law from now on.

Hare Krishnas, actually, are not Hindus.

One that note ...

I went to a Hare Krishna Temple for Janmashtami (Krishna's Birthday) with my Pandit's wife.

She wanted me to have that experience.

Plus ... they have the best vegetarian food in town.

But once they started the preaching ... we scrammed.

The Hindus I know usually say the same thing ... that they are nice people and have great food ... but try to ignore the bullshit if you visit.

Just FYI - HINDUS DO NOT PREACH. Not even in the Mandir. You do not hear sermons or preaching.

Anyway ... judge "Indian" religions as you will

Just know I practice Hindu Dharma ... I'm not a Jain, Sikh or Buddhist.

~666

That's my point- I wouldn't! I would never presume, I know my own ignorance in that field prevents an accurate judgement- it's a huge, huge umbrella . . . just as Islam is. I

[Old Scratch]

That's my point- I wouldn't! I would never presume, I know my own ignorance in that field prevents an accurate judgement- it's a huge, huge umbrella . . . just as Islam is. I

Upon us all ... a little rain must fall.

Come out from underneath that umbrella, son.

~666

[eternal light]

I'm glad she is safe now.

Teddy row teacher 'in total shock'

9 hours ago

The teacher jailed in Khartoum for allowing her students to name a teddy bear Mohammed arrived back in Britain and declared: "I never imagined this would happen. I am just an ordinary middle-aged primary school teacher."

Gillian Gibbons, 54, embraced her children and spoke of her ordeal minutes after landing in London.

Mrs Gibbons - who was jailed for 15 days and faced calls for her execution - said she was in "total shock" as she faced the media at Heathrow airport.

Delighted to be home and holding her son John's hand, she added: "I went out there to have a bit of an adventure and got more of an adventure than I bargained for."

She said: "I'm looking forward to seeing my family and friends and to have a good rest. It has been an ordeal but I was well treated in prison and everyone was very kind to me."

There was no trace of bitterness towards Sudan, with Mrs Gibbons saying: "I am very sorry to leave Sudan. I had a fabulous time. It is a beautiful place and I had a chance to see some of the countryside.

"The Sudanese people I found to be extremely kind and generous and until this happened I only had a good experience. I wouldn't like to put anyone off going to Sudan," she added.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown spoke to Mrs Gibbons on her arrival in Britain, after she had spent more than a week in custody for allowing her seven-year-old pupils to name a teddy bear Mohammed.

She was sentenced to 15 days in prison but was released early after a rescue mission from British peers Lord Ahmed of Rotherham and Baroness Sayeeda Warsi. Sudan's president Omar al-Bashir granted a pardon on Monday.

Asked about the teddy bear row, she said: "I don't really know enough about it. It is a very difficult and delicate area. I was very upset to think I might have caused any offence."

ukpress.google.com

[Mangani]

Because you are so intelligent, progressive, and evolved.

Yes, a tad bit more than some misguided person who actually believes there is a heaven and a hell. Might as well believe in Father Christmas then.

Relgion really MUST be for the backward!

What do YOU dipshits have to offer?

Charles Darwin....................bellend.

[Electrophile]

Yes, a tad bit more than some misguided person who actually believes there is a heaven and a hell. Might as well believe in Father Christmas then.

If a person chooses to believe in the concepts of heaven and hell, they are not stupid, misguided, crazy, or any other derogatory word. No more so than someone who chooses NOT to believe in those things. It's a personal choice, no one is less than another for it.

You don't need to insult people who ARE religious/spiritual, just because you're not.

[Mangani]

If a person chooses to believe in the concepts of heaven and hell, they are not stupid, misguided, crazy, or any other derogatory word.

Get your facts right. I didn't call anybody stupid or crazy. I said they were backwards and misguided. Misguided being the operative word.

Would you consider somebody who believes in fairies at the bottom of their garden misguided? I am sure you would.

Would you consider somebody who believes aliens are going around abducting people misguided? I'm sure you would.

You don't need to insult people who ARE religious/spiritual, just because you're not.

Of course I don't need to. Nobody needs to come into this forum to post about what they just bloody ate for dinner last night. It's something they do. They don't need to. In the same way, people give opinions and if you don't like hearing other people's opinions that you aren't going to agree with then I suggest you stay clear of message boards.

In my opinion religion is a silly and backwards aspect of humanity and those who believe in heaven and hell are misguided. That's all I said. I didn't call anybody crazy, stupid or anything else. I said they are backwards, in the sense they take their cues from ancient and dusty old books that pre-date modern humanity and were written by a bunch of old duffers who couldn't explain how everything came to be so they made up fairy stories. Now we have science to explain it. I think the very idea of an all powerful god and heaven and hell is silly. I see no evidence for it, other than what is 'says' in the Bible or Koran or whatnot.

Have a good day.

[Electrophile]

I'm not saying you can't have that opinion, I know many people who believe the way you do. It's their choice, the same as it's someone else's choice TO believe in it. I just don't think it fair to say that someone who chooses to believe in those concepts is misguided or backwards or any other negative word you can think of. If believing in a higher power, whether you call that power God, Buddha, Yahweh or in George Carlin's words "the giant electron", makes you feel better about your life or makes you feel like you have a purpose.....how is it hurting anyone?

[Del Zeppnile]

You guys just can't stand qualifiers, can you? Never fundamentalist Islam, never radical Islam, always just plain Islam.

That is utterly prejudicial of course- there are Muslims and there are radical Muslims, in the same way there are Christians and then there are David Koresh and Jim Jones and the Children of God and Timothy McVeigh and and and.

Do you believe that there are equal numbers of 'radical Christians' to 'radical Muslims', or doesn't it seem like one has MANY more radical followers?

When people attempt to point out the so called 'radicals' in Christianity (I would argue that they aren't really Christians btw), they always point to Koresh, Jones, the KKK and McViegh. Either that or one of only a handfull of abortion clinic bombers. When in fact there are LEGIONS of radical Muslims around the globe who are commiting murder and mayhem.

And besides that, mainstay Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) ALL speak out very loudly in opposition to any person or group who in the 'name of Christianity' commits the crimes which you are alluding to. There is a well documented and solidified voice in opposition to those exesses.

Can the same be said about Islam?

I may have said this at the old board, and if so I reiterate: sometimes I think you won't be happy until Muhammed Ali is shivering for lack of Parkinson's meds in an internment camp infirmary.

Until you can show me that you have discretion in who you intend to act upon, you'll forgive me if I ignore your call to action.

Sorry, but I'm not really much of a fan of Ali or anyone else who was a follower of Farakahan and THE NATION OF ISLAM. And I didn't appreciate it when he said white people are "of the devil" and "not rightous."

"We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all." Mohammed Ali

"No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters." Mohammed Ali

[Hermit]

NO.

Not speaking for String, but I don't need to site religion as the only justification for capital punishment. In this country capital punishment is just what it is... punishment in accordance with the severity of a crime. You steal a six pack of beer -- you get a fine and a slap on the wrist. You steal a car -- you get some time in jail. You hold up a store with a gun -- you get some YEARS in prison. You rape someone - you get many, many years in prison. You kill somebody (depending on the circumstances and degree of malice) -- you spend the rest of your life in prison or you are executed. It's that simple. It's called justice.

In Sharia countries; you steal something you get your hand chopped off. You commit any 'morals offence and you are beaten or possibly even killed. In Sharia countries you don't even have to commit the worst crime to be executed... and executed without a jury trial or any appeals other than to the governing religious body.

Legality is the superficial justification; morality is the underlying justification. The fact that a certain practice for administering "justice" is legal, that doesn't make it moral. Therefore, your (paraphrased) "its legal under the current system of criminal justice in our country" justification for capital punishment isn't justification enough,.. otherwise you'd have to accept "its legal under our current system of criminal justice" as a valid justification for the practice of stoning people to death under Sharia law. [and you'd also have to accept "its legal" as a valid justification for the practice of abortions]. Clearly "its legal under our system" is not a valid justification, and so we move to deeper justifications: moral justifications.

In that regard then..

..YES..

your moral justifications.. based in your belief in your "God's law".. is in fact your underlying justification for capital punishment.

There is no comparison to my relgious views and those of radical Islam. Even if I am 'closed off' to other religious views, what is the point? My religious views do not lead me to the same mindset and actions of radical Islam despite your attempt to make this point over capital punishment.

Your "closed off to other religious/moral views" view leads you to support the execution of criminals by a method you deem to be a morally acceptable means of administering justice (lethal injection; hanging; electrocution.. whichever your preference may be). Similarly, your "closed off to other religious/moral views" Sharia law abiding Muslim counterparts deem stoning to death to be a morally acceptable means of admninistering "justice".

Therein is one valid comparison.. and similarity.. between your religious views and those of radical Islam.

Another is your moral justification by which you're able to advocate the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.. including women and children.. via bombing.. as a means of eradicating and/or instilling fear in those you consider to be an enemy.. or merely a threat. Your advocacy of such is tantamount to advocacy for terrorism. Your political and military justifications for advocating the killing of innocent civilians are surely rooted in your religious morality... just as radical extremists Islamists have a religion-based moral justification for advocating suiciding bombing and other acts of terrorism.

I am willing to discuss capital punishment more, but maybe you should create a thread for just that topic?

Nah,.. it fits here just fine. This thread is about religion-based ideas of "justice" and religion-based justifications that allow for the administering of "justice" via barbaric means. Sharia law is so obviously barbaric that it's easy to see and even easier to condemn. If you're willing to self-righteously condemn the obvious barbarism of Sharia law, you might then be prompted to examine your own religion-based rationalizations that enable you to justify less obvious forms barbaric administering of justice that take place here in America.

Do I expect you to shine the light of scrutiny of your own beliefs? No, not really. Afaict, self-reflection is neither your style nor your value. But that doesn't matter; this isn't about you. I merely commented to eternal light.. "[you might recognize from a previous comment I made that I am equally befuddled by Christians who support capital punishment while at the same time they claim to value the sanctity of all life] ".. a comment you chose to engage me over.

I could argue that you are being closed minded to the many truths in my beliefs. But what do my beliefs matter as long as they don't cause harm. In this discussion we are talking about the petty beliefs of radical Islam, and how they are harming innocent people.

As the NRA might say.. "beliefs don't harm people, people harm people".. right?

Your beliefs in and of themselves don't hurt anyone,.. but your beliefs.. and the morality that forms the is the foundation of those beliefs.. do lead you to advocate for the killing of innocent civilians in circumstances in which you feel threatened. A few posts back you said Christians only slaughtered others during the Crusades after they had been first persecuted and killed. However, you have also indicated (not in this thread, but previously) that you supported the preemptive attack on Iraq and that you currently would support a preemptive attack on Iran (which you've said you think should be reduced to "a hole in the ground"). In other words, you advocate the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians... you advocate terrorism.. and when questioned about the morality of your position, you cite religion-based (and fear-based) rationalizations.

Do you not see the parallel between your way of thinking and that of radical Islamic extremists?

"Murder" is much more specifically defined than just killing. In a little over one month during the Allied invasion of Normandy (D-day and the campaign to establish an Allied beach, and move inland) Allied bombs killed somewhere between 15 and 20,000 innocent French civilians.

Are you going to say that we murdered them?

They we're "innocent".

They were "killed".

They were "innocent".

Go ahead and replace the word "murder" in my previous post with the word

"slaughter".. or merely "killing".. if semantics is what you're focused on.

[1 of 2]

[Old Scratch]

Yes, a tad bit more than some misguided person who actually believes there is a heaven and a hell. Might as well believe in Father Christmas then.

Charles Darwin....................bellend.

Were you born in a barn?

Hinduism is the 3rd largest religion in the world ... and there are Jains and Buddhists both who do not believe in an eternal "heaven" and "hell".

Neither do they dismiss the notion of human evolution ... particularly on religious grounds.

Read a book, dude. Inquire ... think.

It appears "atheists" are just as prone to being misguided.

What's your excuse?

"Father Christmas" may have something to teach you.

~666

[MS1]

Do you believe that there are equal numbers of 'radical Christians' to 'radical Muslims', or doesn't it seem like one has MANY more radical followers?

When people attempt to point out the so called 'radicals' in Christianity (I would argue that they aren't really Christians btw), they always point to Koresh, Jones, the KKK and McViegh. Either that or one of only a handfull of abortion clinic bombers. When in fact there are LEGIONS of radical Muslims around the globe who are commiting murder and mayhem.

And besides that, mainstay Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) ALL speak out very loudly in opposition to any person or group who in the 'name of Christianity' commits the crimes which you are alluding to. There is a well documented and solidified voice in opposition to those exesses.

Can the same be said about Islam?

You want to create a hierarchy for the fanaticism of religions? Fine. Islam has far more fanatic adherents than Christianity- but Christianity is still on the low end of the totem poll when it comes to that. You forgot Northern Ireland on your list, where years and years of bombings are rooted in Catholic/Protestant conflict. When's the last time you heard of a fanatical buddhist? Are there fanatical hindu terrorists? Besides, there are plenty of peaceful, nonviolent muslims who don't advocate the death of anyone- the vast majority in fact, just as in Christianity. The fact that you can't seem to acknowledge that is downright SCARY.

Sorry, but I'm not really much of a fan of Ali or anyone else who was a follower of Farakahan and THE NATION OF ISLAM. And I didn't appreciate it when he said white people are "of the devil" and "not rightous."

"We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all." Mohammed Ali

"No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters." Mohammed Ali

Does that mean you WOULD be happy to see him shivering for lack of Parkinsons meds in an internment camp infirmary?

Besides, I'd bet those statements come from his Nation of Islam conversion period. He again converted, to Sunni Islam in 1975- in other words, Mitt Romney has been a racist more recently than Muhammed Ali. Angelo Dundee was his trainer and mentor for years and years and years. Ali doesn't hate white people, Del, c'mon. You could really see all the hate when he was doing interviews with Howard Cosell.

Sports Illustrated names him the sportsman of the century, he lights the torch at the olympic games while shaking, and yet you are willing to lump him in with murderers on the other side of the world because he prays to the same god as they do. I think Ali is the perfect example of a great American who happens to be muslim who will be caught in your wide net when you condemn an entire religion.

[Hermit]

[2 of 2]

I would argue that all of our freedoms in this country and the inspiration for our Constitution came from a Christian belief in God and the natural rights which we get from God. This is a nation built by Christians, that history can hardly be denied.

I don't deny that.

And if I'm not mistaken.. American history includes the fact that

witches were burned at the stake by early American Christians.

right?

And didn't early American Christians also slaughter,

subjugate, and displace a few Native Americans too?

And weren't many of those early American Christians slave holders? And didn't they

go to war with their fellow countrymen.. fellow Christians.. who opposed slavery?

A rather violent bunch those early American Christians were, eh?

those "God-granted rights" were granted somewhat selectively, by God,.. huh?

Who says I havn't done that? And does that mean that there is a good chance that

you might be convinced to open your mind to Christianity or some other religion?

I don't have to "be convinced to" open my mind to Christianity, to other religions, or in general, Del. Being open-minded is a quality I recognize in people whom I find to be wise, insightful, empathetic, and compassionate; and in people for whom I feel the most respect and admiration. With such people as role models, striving to be open-minded.. developing the core value of open-mindedness.. was a decision I quite naturally made for myself somewhere along the course of my personal maturation process. No one can "convince" another person to be open-minded; people choose to be open-minded. ..or not.

Fwiw,.. I was raised Catholic; went to Catholic school for a few years; was confirmed Catholic; and considered myself a Catholic until sometime in my 20's or so. Having incorporated into my belief system those aspects of Jesus' message that resonated for me in my heart, and having rejected the bulk of the Catholic dogma, I moved on. Since then I've exposed myself to various spiritual-religious teachers whose teachings are either directly Hindu or Hindu-related; I've exposed myself to spiritual teachers whose teachings are not rooted in religious dogma at all; I've travelled to a Buddhist monastery in the Himalayas of northern India where I received teachings; and.. as you know.. I'm currently practicing Buddhism.

Although I've rejected Christianity as a religious dogma (because it does not move beyond duality) and as a religious institution (which in many regards is corrupt, exclusionary, and hateful), I still hold a great deal of respect, admiration, and reverence for Jesus Christ and his basic message of love and compassion. In my home you'll find depictions of Jesus and St Francis, both of whom I hold very dear in my heart. Fwiw,.. most of my family members are Catholic, many of them quite devout; and some are Evangelical Christian. You'd be hard pressed to suggest I haven't been exposed to Christianity, bro. Oh yeah,.. and I have a brother who's Mormon.

Although I'm not a practicing Hindu, I very much respect Hinduism as a religion and I continue to explore and discuss Hinduism with my spiritual friends who have embarked on that path. Our discussions are mutually supportive, mutually challenging, and mutually beneficial. Hinduism and Buddhism are paths that lead to the realization of non-duality.

Of course there are many religions and spiritual belief systems that I have not explored at all, but I think even you might be willing to acknowledge that the path of my spiritual journey is fairly indicative of general sense of open-mindedness, eh?

Afaic, any religion or belief system that promotes open-mindedness and encourages people to develop love, compassion, and kindness toward one's fellow human beings and toward all beings,.. is a religion/belief system that can help make our world a better place for all.

I think you will find that not all Christians agree on everything. But if being "closed minded" means rejecting things one believes to be false, then I think you are using the wrong terms. We could debate 'religion' until the end of time, but what would be point... to each his own.

Being closed-minded means.. in one regard.. an unwillingness to question and scrutinize one's own beliefs.. an unwillingness to challenge oneself to look deeper into one's belief system, to look for truth beyond that which one has simply been told is true. Being closed-minded is an unwillingness to be open to new ideas; to new ways of thinking about things. Being closed-minded is the refusal to acknowledge the mere possibility that there might be perspectives and paradigms other than one's own that have merit, value, worth, and validity.. maybe even moreso than one's own.

Being open-minded means being open to new things.. be they experiences or ways of thinking about things. Being open-minded doesn't mean one has to adopt every new idea one comes across; it merely means "being open to" giving consideration to something new and different. Being open-minded means being willing to set aside preconceptions, even if just long enough to enable you to experience something entirely new, or to experience something familiar in a fresh, new way.

Some people prefer the sense of comfort they get from being closed-minded.. the "comfort" of familiarity and predictability of one's own belief system.. no matter how limited and/or archaic that belief system might be (you might take Sharia law as one example;.. others might take Creationism as an example).

anyway..

I agree,. to each his/her own.

Or should I say, I can only give an answer to questions of my beliefs. I personally don't feel compelled to convince anyone else about my beliefs. I may debate things where I believe people are attempting to portray my beliefs incorrectly. But in this forum one can only go so far with that... obviously.

Sure, you can give answers to questions about your religious belief system,.. but do you ever ask questions that challenge your own belief system? Do you ask questions for which the dogma itself is not the answer? Do you seek validation for which the dogma itself is not the source of validation for the dogma?

I don't think I ever made that assumption. Not sure where I said that?

You indicated, it seemed to me, that your "..don't feel need to be challenged or validated to others who are not believers" mentality about religion is a mentality you assumed is shared by ALL religions. -->

But isn't that the same with ALL religions?

Btw,.. to answer your question,.. no, that is not the same with ALL religions. Buddhism, for example, encourages scrutiny and critical analysis of its teachings; and Buddhism doesn't shy away from pointing out to a "non-believer" that all it takes is willingness and openness for one to validate for oneself that which is being questioned and/or scrutinized. Buddhism places a heavy emphasis on both critical analysis/scrutiny and personal experience. One's experience is the ultimate validation of the teachings. Hinduism similarly encourages rigorous scrutiny and critical analysis. And I wouldn't be surprised if other religions do too.

Personally, I'd be quite wary of any religion that patently discourages scrutiny or critical analysis of it's teachings.. either by practitioners and/or outsiders. I'd be similarly wary of any religion that says "its true cuz the dogma says it's true. If you doubt, you're unworthy".

anyway..

'preciate the discussion, Del.

[Old Scratch]

from Reuters:

BASRA, Iraq (Reuters) - Women in Iraq's southern city of Basra are living in fear. More than 40 have been killed and their bodies dumped in the streets in the past five months for behavior deemed un-Islamic, the city's police chief says.

A warning scrawled in red on a wall threatens any woman who wears makeup or appears in public without an Islamic headscarf with dire punishment.

"Whoever disobeys will be punished. God is our witness that we have conveyed this message," it says.

Women in the Shi'ite city are convinced hardline Islamic militants are behind the killings and say they fear going out without a headscarf.

"Some women were killed with their children," Basra police chief, Major-General Abdul-Jalil Khalaf, told Reuters. "One with a six-year-old child, another with an 11-year-old."

Khalaf, who was sent to Iraq's second-largest city in June with a mandate to get tough on criminals, said he did not know who the perpetrators were but vowed to catch them.

Rita Anwar, a 27-year-old Christian, said she was thinking of leaving Basra, or even Iraq, altogether.

"You would not believe that I also wear the headscarf sometimes. It is terrifying to read this graffiti in red threatening murder," she said.

[...]

Police in Basra showed Reuters pictures of women whose bodies were found with notes attached, accusing them of adultery and other "honor crimes."

One photo was of Hayat Jassem, 45, found dead with two gunshot wounds in the stomach. Another was of an unidentified woman in her 30s who was found dead and blindfolded.

"The relatives of those killed never report these crimes because they fear scandals or because they fear the threats of those killers," said Khalaf, sitting behind a desk against a backdrop of two large Iraqi flags.

[...]

Hareth al-Athari, an official from Sadr's political movement in Basra, said the movement opposed killing women for wearing un-Islamic attire.

"This is a hideous crime," said the bearded cleric, wearing a black turban and black robe. He said the role of his movement's members was to educate people through written statements or face-to-face talks.

However, several women interviewed by Reuters said Islamic militants -- they did not say who -- were intimidating them, forcing them to cover their hair and bodies.

"A party official who is also a university student came to me and said female students should not attend exams without wearing the headscarves," said one student, who asked not to be identified for fear of reprisals.

"He told me 'God willing there won't be any girl left in the university without wearing a headscarf'."

[FuzzyMerkin]

That's truly sickening...and as long as Muslims all over the world don't speak out more loudly and clearly against those crimes and Muslims in the respective countries don't make a major effort at putting an end to those crimes, as long as those pathetic cowardly criminals are given the chance to speak on behalf of all Muslims and are protected by their religious leaders and communities - as long as things don't change fundamentally (no pun intended) - this is what Islam will be identified with. It's not up to us to change our perspective - it's up to them to change their ways.

IMHO.

[tangerinedream]

This whole board is like a dog park. All the dogs can be playing together nicely for the longest time. Then one dog takes a crap on the concrete, and all hell breaks loose.

[Old Scratch]

This whole board is like a dog park. All the dogs can be playing together nicely for the longest time. Then one dog takes a crap on the concrete, and all hell breaks loose.

Woof.

~666

[Old Scratch]

Hey ... and I like to sniff bitches' assess, too.

natch.

~666

[TheZeppyWanderer]

Woof.

~666

Scratch beat me to it, but anyway allow me to 'bark at the moon' WOOF WOOF !! (a la 'Oddball' Donald Sutherland in Kelly's Heroes) !!

[spatdrastik]

I'm not saying you can't have that opinion, I know many people who believe the way you do. It's their choice, the same as it's someone else's choice TO believe in it. I just don't think it fair to say that someone who chooses to believe in those concepts is misguided or backwards or any other negative word you can think of. If believing in a higher power, whether you call that power God, Buddha, Yahweh or in George Carlin's words "the giant electron", makes you feel better about your life or makes you feel like you have a purpose.....how is it hurting anyone?

How many have died in the name of it?

I believe it's the responsibility of rational people to point out, ridicule, belittle, and have general disdain for delusion.

[Old Scratch]

How many have died in the name of it?

I believe it's the responsibility of rational people to point out, ridicule, belittle, and have general disdain for delusion.

I'm not sure why you think rational people cannot be deluded.

...or why you think you are immune from ignorance.

...or why dispensing riducule is a part of your moral fiber.

Perhaps you are lacking both wisdom and character.

~666

[spatdrastik]

I'm not sure why you think rational people cannot be deluded.

...or why you think you are immune from ignorance.

...or why dispensing riducule is a part of your moral fiber.

Perhaps you are lacking both wisdom and character.

~666

I didn't claim to be either responsible or rational...

[BrownSugar62]

This whole board is like a dog park. All the dogs can be playing together nicely for the longest time. Then one dog takes a crap on the concrete, and all hell breaks loose.

Heh. Gotta love that analogy. Thanks, TD.