SBDs from LA

[cookieshoes]

The Millard tapes from '77 are awesome and I constantly thrash Listen To This Eddie and For Badgeholders but I think Soundboards of these shows would be great, imagine listening to those versions of No Quarter in SBD quality.

Agreed, soundboards of the LA shows would be incredible for those details that the audience recordings miss.

Although, I think that the "No Quarter" from the June 23rd, 1977 show actually sounds incredible on the Millard recording. The vinyl source is also very good for that song, but the Millard source is incredible, I think it captures it perfectly. Compare that to the sound of "No Quarter" on those soundboards from the 77 tour (Destroyer, Houston, New York) and I think what's missing is the atmosphere and the fullness in the instruments. The song ends up sounding flat, even though it's crystal clear. And a lot of the effect of Bonham's massive drumming gets lost in the mix, Page's guitar tone too. Sorta like "Song Remains the Same" from the Eddie show. Based on what we've heard from other soundboards, I don't think one could even come close to the sound of the audience tapes for those shows. Which I guess is where the matrix possibilities come in, for those that like them.

[Sibh23]

What footage? The seconds long grainy audience shot that is referred to here?:

http://www.ukrockfestivals.com/zep.html

Or some other footage?

The footage in the Whole Lotta Love promo from 1997 has since turned out to not have been from Bath as some had thought, but really from the Berlin and Honolulu 1970 footage.

I was referring to the WLL footage, it's backstage footage & is definitively from Bath, very short but Page in that outfit can be seen (note he didn't wear it on Honolulu or any other gigs as far as I know.

http://ledzeppelin.com/video/whole-lotta-love-promo

Alright, as soon as plant starts saying ahhhh-aaahhhh for the first time it shows him screaming into the microphone from the concert at The Royal Albert Hall, it's interposed with footage from Bath, first Plant walks into the cam, it cuts and then it shows Page, Bonzo & Grant, then it cuts to Page doing the Bow solo from Tous en Scene, I'm also pretty sure that the "Smiling Face" footage before Bonzo does the big fill to the solo is from Bath, it all takes place in the fading daylight, correlating to the events at Bath and the band can be seen on the exact same attires as the famed backstage pictures:

As to the "The seconds long grainy audience shot" footage, something tells me it's a fake, let's look at the "Screen Cap"

1) They show the band members in the exact same position, unless the camera had an immediate zoom in-zoom out, it's not too possible, so at least it's 2 photos from the same still.

2) Look at this:

Though the band members are in different position, the angle matches it all quite well, it could be based on other photos from this set, as there are more, achieving that effect is quite easy IMO, print the pics, put them very far and with your camera get the maximun possible zoom.

I don't wanna go out on a limb and call the video fake but it certainly doesn't seem like it.

And for the mention, It was Pro-Shot (look behind Plant, around his right shoulder)

[docron]

I was referring to the WLL footage, it's backstage footage & is definitively from Bath, very short but Page in that outfit can be seen (note he didn't wear it on Honolulu or any other gigs as far as I know.

http://ledzeppelin.com/video/whole-lotta-love-promo

Alright, as soon as plant starts saying ahhhh-aaahhhh for the first time it shows him screaming into the microphone from the concert at The Royal Albert Hall, it's interposed with footage from Bath, first Plant walks into the cam, it cuts and then it shows Page, Bonzo & Grant, then it cuts to Page doing the Bow solo from Tous en Scene, I'm also pretty sure that the "Smiling Face" footage before Bonzo does the big fill to the solo is from Bath, it all takes place in the fading daylight, correlating to the events at Bath and the band can be seen on the exact same attires as the famed backstage pictures:

As to the "The seconds long grainy audience shot" footage, something tells me it's a fake, let's look at the "Screen Cap"

1) They show the band members in the exact same position, unless the camera had an immediate zoom in-zoom out, it's not too possible, so at least it's 2 photos from the same still.

2) Look at this:

Though the band members are in different position, the angle matches it all quite well, it could be based on other photos from this set, as there are more, achieving that effect is quite easy IMO, print the pics, put them very far and with your camera get the maximun possible zoom.

I don't wanna go out on a limb and call the video fake but it certainly doesn't seem like it.

And for the mention, It was Pro-Shot (look behind Plant, around his right shoulder)

Regarding the first set comparison... What do you mean "exact same position"? Page's hand is in a different location and he has moved in relation to Plant from the first to the second... also, look at the people in front of the stage... the guy in white shirt on the far is in the first pic but is nowhere to be seen in the second...

Thus, I doubt it's the exact same instance in time... more likely a few moments apart from each-other...

[cookieshoes]

I was referring to the WLL footage, it's backstage footage & is definitively from Bath, very short but Page in that outfit can be seen (note he didn't wear it on Honolulu or any other gigs as far as I know.

http://ledzeppelin.com/video/whole-lotta-love-promo

Alright, as soon as plant starts saying ahhhh-aaahhhh for the first time it shows him screaming into the microphone from the concert at The Royal Albert Hall, it's interposed with footage from Bath, first Plant walks into the cam, it cuts and then it shows Page, Bonzo & Grant, then it cuts to Page doing the Bow solo from Tous en Scene, I'm also pretty sure that the "Smiling Face" footage before Bonzo does the big fill to the solo is from Bath, it all takes place in the fading daylight, correlating to the events at Bath and the band can be seen on the exact same attires as the famed backstage pictures:

Nope. Believe me, I'd love it to be Bath. But NONE of the footage in the Whole Lotta Love 1997 promo is from Bath. No matter what you read online or elsewhere that it is, it isn't. Not a single frame, not a single shot.

Watch the Chris Welch footage shot in July, 1970:

http://ledzeppelin.com/video/germany-july-1970

All of the supposed "backstage" footage that people thought was from Bath is actually from this video. Page smiling into the camera, the group and Grant walking outdoors, etc. All of it. The reason why the band look similar in the footage is because it was filmed just one month after Bath. So, naturally Page still has the hat and sweater vest, Bonham has the fur-lined coat, and Plant has the mustache.

The only other snippet of supposed Bath 1970 footage in the Whole Lotta Love promo is a brief clip of Plant from Honolulu 1970. For some reason, the footage is not on the site here. But you can watch it here:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...ideoID=15989254

Again, no doubt about it.

For a scene-by-scene breakdown of the Whole Lotta Love promo, go here:

http://www.led-zeppelin.org/reference/index.php?m=assorted22

Every instance where "Bath" is listed is really from Berlin or Honolulu. To this date, no Bath footage has ever been shown to the general public. None.

[Walter]

[cookieshoes]

To bring it back on topic, for anyone who has heard the soundboard fragment for Page's solo from the June 23rd, 1977 LA show, I'd say that it's probably a good indicator of what we're not missing.

Just like the 1975 soundboards, the 1977 soundboards all have a slightly different sound to them. That's because the soundboards were a direct mimic of whatever the soundmen needed to do to get the system to sound right in the different venues. So, some sound better balanced than others.

For instance, the board for New York 1975 "Flying Circus" sounds awesome. Yet, the board from San Diego a month later sounds flat and thin. Likewise, the 77 Cleveland "Destroyer" soundboard sounds fantastic, but most of the other boards from the tour sound flat.

From the sound of the June 23rd LA 77 board, it sounds overloaded and thin, just like the rest of the 77 boards unfortunately. Listen for Bonham's bassdrum at the end of Page's violin bow section. Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy. Same goes for the sound of Page's guitar when he starts Achilles Last Stand at the end of the fragment. No low end, and very very thin. All in all, the board fragment is disappointing in that regard. Especially in comparison to the audience sources for the show where the drums and guitar sound full and dynamic. I'd love to hear an LA soundboard for the two "non-Millard" nights that aren't available in good quality. But for the shows that Millard was able to record, I think that's as good as it gets.

[Walter]

I agree totally. The Houston '77 show sounds sooo thin, but the audience LA shows have a much fuller sound than any of the soundboards. I like to soundboards mainly because you can hear the banter between bandmates that you can't hear in audience recordings, especially during the acoustic sets. I can't imagine how bad the soundboard version of 1st LA show would sound next to Millard's masterpiece.

[tom kid]

To bring it back on topic, for anyone who has heard the soundboard fragment for Page's solo from the June 23rd, 1977 LA show, I'd say that it's probably a good indicator of what we're not missing.

Just like the 1975 soundboards, the 1977 soundboards all have a slightly different sound to them. That's because the soundboards were a direct mimic of whatever the soundmen needed to do to get the system to sound right in the different venues. So, some sound better balanced than others.

For instance, the board for New York 1975 "Flying Circus" sounds awesome. Yet, the board from San Diego a month later sounds flat and thin. Likewise, the 77 Cleveland "Destroyer" soundboard sounds fantastic, but most of the other boards from the tour sound flat.

From the sound of the June 23rd LA 77 board, it sounds overloaded and thin, just like the rest of the 77 boards unfortunately. Listen for Bonham's bassdrum at the end of Page's violin bow section. Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy. Same goes for the sound of Page's guitar when he starts Achilles Last Stand at the end of the fragment. No low end, and very very thin. All in all, the board fragment is disappointing in that regard. Especially in comparison to the audience sources for the show where the drums and guitar sound full and dynamic. I'd love to hear an LA soundboard for the two "non-Millard" nights that aren't available in good quality. But for the shows that Millard was able to record, I think that's as good as it gets.

I agree, but it will still be good to hear an SBD, no?

[cookieshoes]

I agree, but it will still be good to hear an SBD, no?

Deffffffffinitely!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to hear it all. But I think that many of us get a sort of "virus" where we automatically want the soundboards and the video footage that we don't have.

In the case of the soundboards for LA 77, apart from the upgrade that boards for June 22 and June 26 would offer, the rest of the nights are already captured brilliantly on the Millard tapes. And, if history has been any guide as far as this stuff has gone, if soundboards were to ever come out for these shows, not only would the vast majority of people soon get over them, like they have with all of the other 75 and 77 boards that have come out since, but they would probably also find that the audience sources were better in the end. When the soundboard fragment for Montreux 1970 came out, finally completing the audience source for that show, thereby completing that awesome show, the first thing out of people's mouths was "too bad the soundboard doesn't sound as good as the audience source".

There are exceptions to this rule, I think. There are those boards that are so good sound quality-wise, such as the Flying Circus board or Destroyer, that they actually end up making shows that aren't actually the best of the tour seem like they're the best of the tour just based on how good they sound. And so, they maintain their popularity. But the Vancouver 75 board is a much better show than Flying Circus, and so is St Louis, Nassau, and Dallas. But they don't get nearly the same amount of attention because they don't sound quite as good as Flying Circus. Same goes for the 77 boards. Houston 77 is much better than Destroyer, but no one mentions that one. And the Millard tapes blow Destroyer out of the water. When listening to that clip from June 23, you can hear that the sound is on par with the rest of the flat boards from the 77 tour. So, if you want to know what the rest of that board sounds like, just give a listen to the Landover, Seattle, or that fragment from New York June 11.

Like I said, the video footage is the same way. Before Seattle 77 came out, everyone wanted it soooooo bad. When it finally did come out, the immediate comments were that the sound was bad and that the performance was terrible. And now nobody recommends the Seattle vid, much less watches it themselves. More of that "wanting what you don't have" just for the sake of wanting it.

I can bet you top dollar that if Bath 1970 were to ever come out on soundboard or footage, that unless it was PERFECT in both sound and picture, it would very quickly become no big deal to most people. What's more is that, even if it was perfect, people would still probably start nit-picking how the show wasn't even that good in the first place.

I think the end of the story is that most fans have a very short attention span for these things, but an endless list of wants to go with it. Unless the sound is perfect, and the performance is perfect, there will always be something "better" out there.

[tom kid]

Deffffffffinitely!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to hear it all. But I think that many of us get a sort of "virus" where we automatically want the soundboards and the video footage that we don't have.

In the case of the soundboards for LA 77, apart from the upgrade that boards for June 22 and June 26 would offer, the rest of the nights are already captured brilliantly on the Millard tapes. And, if history has been any guide as far as this stuff has gone, if soundboards were to ever come out for these shows, not only would the vast majority of people soon get over them, like they have with all of the other 75 and 77 boards that have come out since, but they would probably also find that the audience sources were better in the end. When the soundboard fragment for Montreux 1970 came out, finally completing the audience source for that show, thereby completing that awesome show, the first thing out of people's mouths was "too bad the soundboard doesn't sound as good as the audience source".

There are exceptions to this rule, I think. There are those boards that are so good sound quality-wise, such as the Flying Circus board or Destroyer, that they actually end up making shows that aren't actually the best of the tour seem like they're the best of the tour just based on how good they sound. And so, they maintain their popularity. But the Vancouver 75 board is a much better show than Flying Circus, and so is St Louis, Nassau, and Dallas. But they don't get nearly the same amount of attention because they don't sound quite as good as Flying Circus. Same goes for the 77 boards. Houston 77 is much better than Destroyer, but no one mentions that one. And the Millard tapes blow Destroyer out of the water. When listening to that clip from June 23, you can hear that the sound is on par with the rest of the flat boards from the 77 tour. So, if you want to know what the rest of that board sounds like, just give a listen to the Landover, Seattle, or that fragment from New York June 11.

Like I said, the video footage is the same way. Before Seattle 77 came out, everyone wanted it soooooo bad. When it finally did come out, the immediate comments were that the sound was bad and that the performance was terrible. And now nobody recommends the Seattle vid, much less watches it themselves. More of that "wanting what you don't have" just for the sake of wanting it.

I can bet you top dollar that if Bath 1970 were to ever come out on soundboard or footage, that unless it was PERFECT in both sound and picture, it would very quickly become no big deal to most people. What's more is that, even if it was perfect, people would still probably start nit-picking how the show wasn't even that good in the first place.

I think the end of the story is that most fans have a very short attention span for these things, but an endless list of wants to go with it. Unless the sound is perfect, and the performance is perfect, there will always be something "better" out there.

You make some good points. I have the 28-5-77 Landover show, soundboard. Incredibly thin sounding. I would actually much prefer to listen to the 30th show audience recording that I have; quite a good recording except the lower end is not the greatest, still very listenable though.

I also think that '73 soundboards sound terrible as well, just listen to the New Orleans sbd, its pretty piss poor. I'd much rather listen to a good audience recording, Bonzo's Birthday Party is a great recording.

Overall I think the best of the soundboards are: the famous 24-7-69 Fillmore West show, pretty much any '75 board, Destroyer and Knebworth. The rest are really not that greater quality, still I have no problem in listening to them.

I'd still give an arm and a leg to hear that 6 night run in sounboard quality, just so there was a comparison to the audience recording and the band is definitely 'on' during those shows, it would be great hearing Jonesy's solos in NQ in sbd quality.

[Nutrocker]

You make some good points. I have the 28-5-77 Landover show, soundboard. Incredibly thin sounding. I would actually much prefer to listen to the 30th show audience recording that I have; quite a good recording except the lower end is not the greatest, still very listenable though.

It's too bad that May 28th show is pretty much another '77 off night IMO. The SBD just emphasises the sloppiness. The AUD recording ain't much, but the hsow is presented in a better light. I've said elsewhere that I'm convinced good old Empress Valley is sitting on the SBDS for May 25th and 30th and are just waiting for the right time to release them. May 25th, now that'd be welcome- the AUD source is very distant sounding, whereas the AUD for May 30th is one of the best non-Millard '77's (once the taper set the levels right at the start of "Sick Again", that is)

I also think that '73 soundboards sound terrible as well, just listen to the New Orleans sbd, its pretty piss poor. I'd much rather listen to a good audience recording, Bonzo's Birthday Party is a great recording.

Have you heard the AUD recording for NOLA '73? Blows the SBD out of the water, even if you have one of the deliberately sabotaged versions (the story behind that AUD tape's release could fill a fucking book in itself), but the guy who taped it knows his shit, bless his heart.

Overall I think the best of the soundboards are: the famous 24-7-69 Fillmore West show, pretty much any '75 board, Destroyer and Knebworth. The rest are really not that greater quality, still I have no problem in listening to them.

I'd still kill to hear an audience tape of the "Destroyer" April 27 show...if for no other reason to hear what the hell is missing from "No Quarter"! Funny, I've of course had "Destroyer" for years- why the hell does it sound so different compared to the other '77 boards? Mine sounds damn near like an official live album, not dry as stale melba toast like, say, May 26

I'd still give an arm and a leg to hear that 6 night run in sounboard quality, just so there was a comparison to the audience recording and the band is definitely 'on' during those shows, it would be great hearing Jonesy's solos in NQ in sbd quality.

Guessing you're referring to the Forum '77 run, I'd say Jonesy's solo piano bits come through great on Millard's tapes, again, SBDS for Millard's shows are totally redundant, except possibly for matrixing purposes, and even then I'd only want to see someone like Andy Winston or Bluecongo do 'em...the 22nd or 26th on the other hand, any better recording to appear would be wonderful...bottom line, I could only get worked up about another new '75 or '77, in particular, soundboard appearing only if it was one of the shows we don't have circulating audience tapes for.

[ZepFanatic]

I have collected every show the band ever did at the LA Forum (these span 1970 to 1977) and would love to have them ALL in SBD quality (except the Millard tapes, obviously). Right now I am listening to 6/3/73 which is incredible, but to have it in a SBD would be heaven...

[johnlennon696]

With the three SBD tracks we have from the June 27th 1972 show, is it assumed the whole show exists in SBD somewhere other than Page's vault?

Also, with that SBD fragment from the 23rd June 1977 show, i wonder if a full SBD exists too...

[PhxHorn]

Here are the shows that were professionally multi-tracked by the band, all of which feature the extra mic on the kick drum:

Maybe I'm just stupid, but why is an extra mic necessary? Why not just patch the existing mics through to a multi-track recorder and then to the soundboard? I'm not that familiar with 70s audio equipment, but I find it hard to believe that an entire second set of mics was required.

[PhxHorn]

Jimmy's insistence on blatantly rewriting history when it comes to this stuff IMO tarnishes Zep's live reputation more than just leaving things raw and as-is...YMMV, of course.

Well, no musician wants to have a mistake sitting there for everyone to hear over and over. It's pretty much standard procedure to punch in and fix mistakes in a recording studio, and these days live releases are anything but. Not only do you have onstage vocal tracks being played by sequences (along with the usual keyboard and percussion tracks), but after the live recording, there is a huge amount of 'fixing' done in the studio. I was on a video shoot for PBS a few years ago and the whole thing was a shambles with equipment failures and lack of rehearsal, and the star of the show replaced probably 50% of his playing before it was released, not to mention lots of editing on everyone else.

It's not a matter of rewriting history, it's a matter of fixing one-time mistakes that nobody wants to hear.

[cookieshoes]

Here are the shows that were professionally multi-tracked by the band, all of which feature the extra mic on the kick drum:

Maybe I'm just stupid, but why is an extra mic necessary? Why not just patch the existing mics through to a multi-track recorder and then to the soundboard? I'm not that familiar with 70s audio equipment, but I find it hard to believe that an entire second set of mics was required.

The extra mics were used so that they could run them independent of the mics running to the soundboard. The soundboard mics were the "good" mics that they brought on tour, and fed to the board, which fed the PA.

The very nice extra mics they put on the drums at Royal Albert Hall, LA 72, and Earls Court were much higher end mics, which capture far more detail, but are too expensive to subject to the normal thrashing of a road tour.

The other reason for the extra mics is that back in those days, when a band wanted to record a show they had to use an independent professional to do the recording. Which meant that guy had to bring a mobile truck filled with a bunch of studio equipment, mics, preamps, and tape machines, and sit in the truck outside the venue with all of these cables running to the stage. Remember, they used tape back then. So, in that truck, they were constantly recording tracks to reels of tape throughout the show, and switching reels on duplicate machines so that they didn't miss one second of the show. So, when running these mobile setups, the guy doing the recording in the van isn't running his stuff through the house board, except for splicing into the vocal mic feed. That's why he has the extra mics onstage and his own mixing board, for his recording. The quality of the sound coming through the house soundboard doesn't compare to a larger studio-grade mixing board. Nor does the quality of a simple dynamic mic on the kick drum compare to the detail and quality possible with one of those huge ultra-sensitive expensive mics.

So, since each setup was still needed, they required two separate rigs to do it. Today, technology has modernized things a little, and soundmen can do their own multi-tracks from the house board using a simple computer program. Although, for really high-quality recordings, you'll often still see professionally recorded shows handled by outside companies with the same vans, duplicate/high end mics, etc.

[greenman]

I suspect that whoever is selling the tapes to the bootleggers may well be asking more for certain shows than others with the LA gigs naturally being near the top of the list. 77 does seem a little different though, for 73 and 75 there have been enough releases that its easy to believe someone has access to almost every show. 77 is much patchier with fewer releases with Destroyer emerging before the tape theifts and Seattle being a video soundtrack.