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Was Jimmy's peak in 1973?


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One thing mentioned on other threads/forums is that 90% of the 75' D&C have a ratherr clean and unboosted guitar sound.

73' wasn't exactly distorted, but Jimmy's settings for D&C then had more meat and a thicker tone. 75' NQ Jimmy's tone was

fine, also Sick Again. I would also say it's a shame that much of Jimmy's tone in 77' is really expressive, just as his technique

was starting to tank. Although from 73'-77' Page tended to have the same "sound " for a given song on a given tour, to

my ears even this issue could be haphazard. I don't think it's just a bootleg matter, you can really distinguish it. In 75'

TU, IMTOD, Kashmir, etc, all had rather random guitar tone and distortion from one show to another. In a way this makes

things more interesting, but listen to 3/11/75, Jimmy is not just uninspired(not really sloppy), but has a rather uninspiring 

tone straight thru. 3/12/, the next night, yes Jimmy is much better, but also he seems to have made some adjustments

for a more lively tone overall, but still drier than most of 73'.

 

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Page's guitar playing on TSRTS concert from 1973, on tracks Dazed, WLL, and No Quarter, as well as the song TSRTS are his best ever. Like the OP said, his fingers just danced on the strings with tasty, killer licks that are coming through rapid fire and are just on another level from any other guitar player, I don't care who they are, they don't cut as deep to your soul the way Page did in 1973. Plus, for you long time guitar players and tone maniacs like myself out there, his tone was PERFECT AND PURE. Just enough edge, plenty of clarity and definition, and ATTITUDE. THE best rock and roll tone ever in my book. TSRTS is unreal, don't care about the edits here and there, I have the bootleg, it's 99% the way you hear it, he played it. LIVE. He was also really great on 1988 Outrider tour and 1998 Page-Plant. We saw Page-Plant at MSG in NY in July 1998 from the 10th row, and it blew the whole arena into smithereens. After the show, on the way out of the Garden as people were exiting, huge crowds started chanting and screaming again, it was INSANE. I've been to hundreds, maybe a thousand shows in my life (yup, I'm over 50) and I've NEVER seen an aftermath of people still so psyched as to what they just saw. Huge crowds WERE STILL SCREAMING ON THE STREETS IN MANHATTAN AFTER THE SHOW! I only wish JPJ was there. Page and Plant truly earned it, and lived up to every bit of their legend, plus it was only a 4-piece, not some corny ensemble of backing musicians like the Stones, The Who, Pink Floyd, etc. all used in recent times to fill out their sound. 1998 was the time they should have done the Zep reunion and filmed it, they still totally had it.

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On 4/20/2017 at 5:52 AM, Crimson Avenger said:

I'd be interested if you could give a concrete example of stickiness in 1975... we may be talking at cross purposes! Sure he doesn't hit every note exact and some solos he struggles with (Rock and Roll springs to mind), but that applies equally to pre 75. But it's interesting that I can listen to 1975 (soapbox time: I've listened to every note of every show) and draw the opposite conclusion. I find it remarkably unsticky from Jimmy throughout.

I'm pretty sure heroin wasn't an issue in 75. Stephen Davis insinuates it, but as with so much in his books there's nothing to back up the assertion. 1976 and beyond, sure.

Books actually are maybe another reason why people have a poor view of 1975. Luis Rey's initial book was quite down on 75, which is understandable because he was writing before a lot of the good recordings came out. I don't have the more recent version, so can't comment on that. Davis in both his books makes a lot of disparaging comments about 1975 which are either unprovable or demonstrably false.

 

 

 

Many, many shows, too many to go back and actually fine pick.  I too have listened to pretty much every available show too, several times, except for the poor to fair audience tapes.  I am listening right now to Seattle 3/17/75 . OTHAFA , solo has exactly what I'm referring to... repetitive ideas, sticky fingers...all heightened by the sound board dryness. Its just not at all what I would call his peak playing. His solo on NQ is also a mixed bag of some inspired lines and then a lot of sloppy meandering. The 73 versions were the perfect length to me. The 75 and 77 versions are often too long and anti-climactic.  Some people can call it electric noise or dissonance but I don't agree with that. He wasn't as articulate and it shows. That's the rose colored ears thing to me, making excuses for the fuck ups by calling them " dissonances".  

Yes, he is sometimes trancelike in his exploration of ideas in 75, arguably more so than in previous years but his phrasing often sounds raggedy, and disjointed in 75 to me , and really in 77.   Of course there are exceptions... like 5/18 and 23 Earls Court, and many great solos from the late March 75 run in southern California. Maybe its the unsparing stark quality of the board tapes that gets to me so much too because I don't like the guitar tone as much as the 73 board tapes. I prefer the good audience tapes to the boards because the effect of the disjointed phrasing is much less evident but I still contend he rambles a lot more and didn't have the finger control and fluidity of ideas as much in 75 and 77 as in previous years.  Also, many times it sounds like his picking is often too hard and he gets this sloppy percussive attack rather than a clean execution.  

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On 4/8/2017 at 5:31 AM, Boleskinner said:

After 1973 he lost a lot of fluency in his playing.

He acquired "Sticky fingers" and never fully got the fluency back.

For me, 73 is his peak, because he still had the fluency and had the HOTH material to draw on, which was more diverse than previous albums.

The 75, 77 and Copenhagen 79 shows had their moments, but a compilation of the best bits of each tour would suffice for me.

 

 

Agreed, we are like minded on this subject. 

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Well, one arguable exception was the complexity of the 75' TSRTS. Tone not as sweet as 73', and  a few mediocre versions,

but being a gtr player myself, trying to duplicate what Page is doing, throw all conventional picking and soloing conventions

out the window. On this song anyway, crazier than like 30-40% of Van Halen stuff, like where do I even begin, insane

rhythmic and structural complexities.

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5 hours ago, porgie66 said:

Many, many shows, too many to go back and actually fine pick.  I too have listened to pretty much every available show too, several times, except for the poor to fair audience tapes.  I am listening right now to Seattle 3/17/75 . OTHAFA , solo has exactly what I'm referring to... repetitive ideas, sticky fingers...all heightened by the sound board dryness. Its just not at all what I would call his peak playing. His solo on NQ is also a mixed bag of some inspired lines and then a lot of sloppy meandering. The 73 versions were the perfect length to me. The 75 and 77 versions are often too long and anti-climactic.  Some people can call it electric noise or dissonance but I don't agree with that. He wasn't as articulate and it shows. That's the rose colored ears thing to me, making excuses for the fuck ups by calling them " dissonances".  

Yes, he is sometimes trancelike in his exploration of ideas in 75, arguably more so than in previous years but his phrasing often sounds raggedy, and disjointed in 75 to me , and really in 77.   Of course there are exceptions... like 5/18 and 23 Earls Court, and many great solos from the late March 75 run in southern California. Maybe its the unsparing stark quality of the board tapes that gets to me so much too because I don't like the guitar tone as much as the 73 board tapes. I prefer the good audience tapes to the boards because the effect of the disjointed phrasing is much less evident but I still contend he rambles a lot more and didn't have the finger control and fluidity of ideas as much in 75 and 77 as in previous years.  Also, many times it sounds like his picking is often too hard and he gets this sloppy percussive attack rather than a clean execution.  

I just listened to 3/17/75 OTHAFA... no 77-80 era stickiness at all, although he misses a note or two here and there. I'll concede the early part of that show isn't the best of 75.  But that one is actually one of his more thoughtful solos, almost every phrase has a different idea in it, and I think I can hear something like Hots On For Nowhere in there around the 5 minute mark, for example. Hugely articulate; while some passages work better than others, there are no fuck ups in that one.

There are 'many, many' great shows, lol. How about Chicago 1/22/75? A very nice early 75 show, pretty clear and listenable AUD, and Jimmy plays great. Check NQ, CB etc. Control, fluency, vibrato, it's all there. Off topic but Plant's not shabby there either; his voice troubles only really start after this gig.

Page's phrasing has always been weird compared to other players, and I'd contend that peaks in 75, in terms of being sucessfully carried off. Where you hear sloppy and disjointed, I hear invention and a desire to be different and move on. His soloing gets longer as the tour goes on, but that's not an accident. Sounds like it's his 75 tone that you object to most. That's a fair point, it is a bit thinner than 73, on the boards at least. But it's not particularly different to pre 73 (that year spoils us tone-wise, I'd contend), and doesn't bother me personally anyway :)

Ho hum. The 'hard picking' point is interesting. I think you can argue that for 77, where he is pretty brutal, but not 75. Maybe it's the board tape sound again. Each to his own. We're never going to agree here, but it's all good! 20 years ago this kind of discussion wasn't possible, as almost nobody could hear this stuff then.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mithril46 said:

Well, one arguable exception was the complexity of the 75' TSRTS. Tone not as sweet as 73', and  a few mediocre versions,

but being a gtr player myself, trying to duplicate what Page is doing, throw all conventional picking and soloing conventions

out the window. On this song anyway, crazier than like 30-40% of Van Halen stuff, like where do I even begin, insane

rhythmic and structural complexities.

Yup, Page's natural lead style is unique, and very hard to emulate. Pointless, probably. His picking and phrasing is all over the place, but it works once your ear is attuned to it. I once knew a fellow guitar player who insisted Page was literally useless, simply because you can't count his playing off on a metronome. Briefly knew, lol.

I contend your point also holds true for much of his 1975 lead work, which is where that complexity peaks. Whether that is natural or carefully worked out, I'm not sure, and I'm not sure it matters. Would be great if a proper music journalist could one day get him to go into detail about all this, and make him answer properly!

From 77-80, he was equally capable at times, but fell off the high wire quite often.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Crimson Avenger said:

I just listened to 3/17/75 OTHAFA... no 77-80 era stickiness at all, although he misses a note or two here and there. I'll concede the early part of that show isn't the best of 75.  But that one is actually one of his more thoughtful solos, almost every phrase has a different idea in it, and I think I can hear something like Hots On For Nowhere in there around the 5 minute mark, for example. Hugely articulate; while some passages work better than others, there are no fuck ups in that one.

There are 'many, many' great shows, lol. How about Chicago 1/22/75? A very nice early 75 show, pretty clear and listenable AUD, and Jimmy plays great. Check NQ, CB etc. Control, fluency, vibrato, it's all there. Off topic but Plant's not shabby there either; his voice troubles only really start after this gig.

Page's phrasing has always been weird compared to other players, and I'd contend that peaks in 75, in terms of being sucessfully carried off. Where you hear sloppy and disjointed, I hear invention and a desire to be different and move on. His soloing gets longer as the tour goes on, but that's not an accident. Sounds like it's his 75 tone that you object to most. That's a fair point, it is a bit thinner than 73, on the boards at least. But it's not particularly different to pre 73 (that year spoils us tone-wise, I'd contend), and doesn't bother me personally anyway :)

Ho hum. The 'hard picking' point is interesting. I think you can argue that for 77, where he is pretty brutal, but not 75. Maybe it's the board tape sound again. Each to his own. We're never going to agree here, but it's all good! 20 years ago this kind of discussion wasn't possible, as almost nobody could hear this stuff then.

 

 

OK, you make some very good points. This mostly pertains to how I feel about his peak, playing-wise and I just can't agree with 1975 being his apex. I was just listening to Chasing the Dragon ( Dallas 3/4/75)... the old vinyl was the first Zep soundboard I bought back in 1983. Again, some really inspired playing by JP then some real clams, and certainly not peak form for me. Now if he had the fluency and chops of 1970-73 on there then maybe I would say thats the apex because of the creativity and evolution of some of his vocabulary which is evident on " many, many" 75 shows.  

Also, I really enjoy the Chicago shows from 75. I like the different set with Levee, Wanton Song, and HMMT and I think Page is playing great despite the recent finger issue...he's  more concise and fluent than on most later shows that tour - when that desire to explore often sounds rambling and disjointed (thats where we differ). Its all good because you know your shit, and you've obviously listened to a lot of live Zep and I respect your opinion, I just don't agree and that is civil. That's what makes this forum so great. We can discuss all these fine points about our favorite band. 

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Jimmy did disclose in a Creem magazine talk/ interview very early in the 75' tour that he actually had to spend time working

out a three finger technique because of the injury. Page, practicing on tour !?!?!? maybe very early on, hard to imagine 77'

or later. But that is likely why Jimmy sounds almost more fluent early in the tour then later at times. IMO Jimmy certainly

worked out maybe 40-50% of his leads or solos as guidelines( many versions of live 73'-75' D&C have some stock solos)

but he tended to repeat ideas, approaches, or motifs rather than strict repeated live solos exactly alike.

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He definitely had a basic structure for all of those long solos he wanted D&C/NQ however his ability to drift means you are going to get the oddball note at times. But you can always tell there was that structure he had in his mind for each long solo. But the ability to meander through that structure for 10 odd minutes a night, night after night is more than commendable.

 

I will never understand why in Europe 73' he peaked into another stratosphere (just started coke or speed perhaps). Let's not forget those drugs would of made him play flawlessly because of what's going through your head  when he first tried them. Especially if he was on speed.

Edited by TheStairwayRemainsTheSame
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On 24/04/2017 at 11:46 PM, porgie66 said:

OK, you make some very good points. This mostly pertains to how I feel about his peak, playing-wise and I just can't agree with 1975 being his apex. I was just listening to Chasing the Dragon ( Dallas 3/4/75)... the old vinyl was the first Zep soundboard I bought back in 1983. Again, some really inspired playing by JP then some real clams, and certainly not peak form for me. Now if he had the fluency and chops of 1970-73 on there then maybe I would say thats the apex because of the creativity and evolution of some of his vocabulary which is evident on " many, many" 75 shows.  

Also, I really enjoy the Chicago shows from 75. I like the different set with Levee, Wanton Song, and HMMT and I think Page is playing great despite the recent finger issue...he's  more concise and fluent than on most later shows that tour - when that desire to explore often sounds rambling and disjointed (thats where we differ). Its all good because you know your shit, and you've obviously listened to a lot of live Zep and I respect your opinion, I just don't agree and that is civil. That's what makes this forum so great. We can discuss all these fine points about our favorite band. 

Yup!

I think the official TSRTS spoils us. Seemingly at random, we get arguably the best Stairway solo he ever played, and - in the original 1976 format at least - the best NQ.

I'd maybe put it like this. In 73 we get the 'finished product' from him on stage, carefully worked out. In 75 he's more interested in exploring ideas with the guitar, the more so as the tour goes on. I agree, early 75 he's far more focussed and succinct. Nothing wrong at all in preferring that as a listener.

Uncharitably, you might say that in 73 he has it all worked out. In 75 he plays until he runs out of ideas. In 77 he does that then adds a couple of minutes on the end :)

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Crimson Avenger said:

 

I'd maybe put it like this. In 73 we get the 'finished product' from him on stage, carefully worked out. In 75 he's more interested in exploring ideas with the guitar, the more so as the tour goes on. I agree, early 75 he's far more focussed and succinct. Nothing wrong at all in preferring that as a listener.

Yes, I think you've cracked it

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On 25/04/2017 at 8:48 AM, Mithril46 said:

Jimmy did disclose in a Creem magazine talk/ interview very early in the 75' tour that he actually had to spend time working

out a three finger technique because of the injury. Page, practicing on tour !?!?!? maybe very early on, hard to imagine 77'

or later. But that is likely why Jimmy sounds almost more fluent early in the tour then later at times. IMO Jimmy certainly

worked out maybe 40-50% of his leads or solos as guidelines( many versions of live 73'-75' D&C have some stock solos)

but he tended to repeat ideas, approaches, or motifs rather than strict repeated live solos exactly alike.

I think Page was very well prepared for the 1975 tour. The finger business forced him 'back to basics' for a while. In his book he refers to a 'spirited' rehearsal as soon as they got off the plane in the US. I'd take that to mean 'panic-stricken', lol. Early 75 could have been awful due to Plant's worsening voice. But the other three members are all on it and able to cover for him.

Compare with 77, where Page starts the tour seemingly with no idea how to do the leadwork for ALS or TYG.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, TheStairwayRemainsTheSame said:

Yes, I think you've cracked it

woo hoo!

Early 73 I think he's just immensely 'match fit'. He'd been playing and honing that stuff for years with regular touring. I'm not dissing it, it's brilliant. But he moves away from it. Before 75 actually; the US 73 tour starts to drop some of the rock and roll/ blues stuff.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Crimson Avenger said:

woo hoo!

Early 73 I think he's just immensely 'match fit'. He'd been playing and honing that stuff for years with regular touring. I'm not dissing it, it's brilliant. But he moves away from it. Before 75 actually; the US 73 tour starts to drop some of the rock and roll/ blues stuff.

 

 

All of the blues and rock and roll gets fit entirely into that Whole Lotta Love section for 73. Even YSM gets into it at times. That's why we ended up hearing stuff they were just playing on the spot blues wise The WLL sections for 73 is an absolute rock n roll/blues fest. The amount of material they got into WLL could of been a whole show at times.

Edited by TheStairwayRemainsTheSame
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One thing that I remember was that in Creem magazine after the whole 73'' tour( not sure if published in 74' or 75') Page

absolutely mentions getting very little sleep and being pretty wasted for almost all of the shows. Yes Jimmy was doing some

coke then, but it sounded more like drunkeness. The only reason I mention all this is that Jimmy up to that point was obviously

playing probably at home and whereever probably almost daily. To me this really makes me think about some 75' , and all

the rest., because I would like to hear of some other player(s) who were totally trashed in 5 different ways like Jimmy, yet

kept up their practicing yet ended up sounding as ragged as Jimmy. Please, no Keith Richards......He almost never screws

up, and used to get onstage with no rehearsal with the old blues guys, and never screwed up. Heroin was obviously the killer,

but mainly because Jimmy played much less. Although at home Jimmy usually played acoustic; That's very likely why

Jimmy wasalmost impeccable on the 77' acoustic sets. There are famous guitarists who need little maintenance to play well,

Jimmy's hands needed constant stretching, every player is different. So fluid in 73',, guitar constantly in hand.

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  • 4 years later...

Zeppelin really kicked off in 1970, page veteran session musician. I imagine he was still playing a lot of guitar (practice wise) up until 72. When 1973 came along, so did he IMO, he was at his peak, probably dabbling in drugs, but not so much so that it’s effecting just day to day life or ability to play guitar. 

the best of page was 1973, that version was insane, not going to make to many big statements here, but who ever plays guitar knows he was a beast around that time. 
 

The success of zeppelin, earning millions, taking stupid amounts of drugs, are you really going to be sitting in your hotel room developing new guitar skills? Or even maintenance of the ones you do have? 

page up until 73/74 was a beast! And I have no issue with that. 😂

 

all the best guys 
 

 

 

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On 4/19/2017 at 8:58 AM, porgie66 said:

Really?!  The sticky fingers are omnipresent thought 75 and 77. Also his ideas don't flow as smoothly...clearly drugs and booze were affecting his playing. It's amazing that he could largely pull off all the demands of being the guitar section every gig for 3 hours at a time but he is constantly clamming notes and chords. I think many Zep fans have rose colored ears when it comes to Plants singing post 72  and Pages playing post 73. This is why I don't get too excited anymore about another soundboard tape from 75 or 77. They highlight the slop which is always there, to a greater or lesser extent. I'm not saying they're bad shows , I'm strictly referring to the detail of Jimmys guitar work and Plants voice cracking. I'm hard pressed to find one soundboard show that doesn't highlight these problems from 75. The audience tapes mask the shortcomings. That's why I prefer the audience tapes to the boards, especially the Millard tapes.  Soundboards are like fluorescent ugly lights turned up bright. 

Agree 100%

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I think Page's peak was 73, Europe and the end of July, but a close second is 1971. On another day, I might have said 1971 was his peak, especially the Japan tour. I agree with those who said he started playing sloppy in 1975 and beyond. I noticed this right away, as soon as I started listening to my first 75 boots way back in the day. I was disturbed by his slop. He was this towering figure in my life, the ultimate guitar hero, my musical idol, and I was suddenly faced with the reality that Jimmy was human, all too human, when I listened to his playing in 75 and beyond. In fact, it wasn't until many years later when I started picking up lots of boots from 75 (because of the internet), that I finally came across a few shows that showed me Jimmy still had the spark of genius in him.

I was so happy to hear his playing on 2-14-75, and I had the version from TDOLZ, which was a nice audience version. Then I heard the show from March 27, 1975 and was blown away by the NQ. It was great to see these flashes of greatness return here and there. But in 1973, Jimmy played at an inspired level almost every show, with just a few exceptions. His playing was fresh, inventive, aggressive, sharp, articulate and fast. He was very energetic. Same can be said for 69-72. In 1975, I found him drifting and repeating some used up boring licks over and over again. I found him incoherent at times, like he forgot what he was playing and had to reorient himself on stage in the moment. I do not see it as Jimmy "exploring" and being "inventive". I can tell the difference.

There's simply a level of slop that crept into his playing after 73.

To me, it sounds like he stopped practicing. He probably wasn't as hungry as he was in 69-73, when he had something to prove. He was always on tour and always recording. That keeps the rust off. After an 18 month break from 73 to 75, he sounds like he came back really rusty and slowly got back in shape, somewhat, during the tour. When you stop playing for a while, you lose your vocabulary and your technique both, and that's what Jimmy sounded like to me. There are a number of notable exceptions in 75, but in general, I think he was consistently less great than in 73.

Not to mention, if he was getting drunk then forget it. The fingers do not behave. And once the heroin became a problem, well, then there's no time at all for discipline and practice. A top musician is like a top athlete: they must train and train hard to maintain their top form.

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2 hours ago, Christopher Lees said:

To me, it sounds like he stopped practicing. He probably wasn't as hungry as he was in 69-73, when he had something to prove.

Yes, I think this is the single biggest factor (drugs, injuries certainly didn't help).  After '73 they pretty much had to just stand there and the crowd (who were just as stoned as the band) would go nuts.  Not saying they packed it in (there were still great performances in '75), but the incentive to put on a killer performance start-to-finish just wasn't there when they became rock gods.

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11 hours ago, Christopher Lees said:

I think Page's peak was 73, Europe and the end of July, but a close second is 1971. On another day, I might have said 1971 was his peak, especially the Japan tour. I agree with those who said he started playing sloppy in 1975 and beyond. I noticed this right away, as soon as I started listening to my first 75 boots way back in the day. I was disturbed by his slop. He was this towering figure in my life, the ultimate guitar hero, my musical idol, and I was suddenly faced with the reality that Jimmy was human, all too human, when I listened to his playing in 75 and beyond. In fact, it wasn't until many years later when I started picking up lots of boots from 75 (because of the internet), that I finally came across a few shows that showed me Jimmy still had the spark of genius in him.

I was so happy to hear his playing on 2-14-75, and I had the version from TDOLZ, which was a nice audience version. Then I heard the show from March 27, 1975 and was blown away by the NQ. It was great to see these flashes of greatness return here and there. But in 1973, Jimmy played at an inspired level almost every show, with just a few exceptions. His playing was fresh, inventive, aggressive, sharp, articulate and fast. He was very energetic. Same can be said for 69-72. In 1975, I found him drifting and repeating some used up boring licks over and over again. I found him incoherent at times, like he forgot what he was playing and had to reorient himself on stage in the moment. I do not see it as Jimmy "exploring" and being "inventive". I can tell the difference.

There's simply a level of slop that crept into his playing after 73.

To me, it sounds like he stopped practicing. He probably wasn't as hungry as he was in 69-73, when he had something to prove. He was always on tour and always recording. That keeps the rust off. After an 18 month break from 73 to 75, he sounds like he came back really rusty and slowly got back in shape, somewhat, during the tour. When you stop playing for a while, you lose your vocabulary and your technique both, and that's what Jimmy sounded like to me. There are a number of notable exceptions in 75, but in general, I think he was consistently less great than in 73.

Not to mention, if he was getting drunk then forget it. The fingers do not behave. And once the heroin became a problem, well, then there's no time at all for discipline and practice. A top musician is like a top athlete: they must train and train hard to maintain their top form.

💯

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