Release MSG 73 footage - QUESTIONS

[guilhermenogueira90]

Hi there. Well, first I'm sorry if this topic is in the wrong place. I don't use this forum, so the people in charge can move it to the right place.

My question is as follows,
Jimmy Page probably owns the footage from the 3 shows at MSG 73, right or wrong?

If so, do you know if he has already said anything about filming and if he intends to release it to fans?

Another question, only these 3 shows were filmed in 73 or does Page have a safe full of these jewels but doesn't want to launch?

Thank you guys, hugs.

Edited June 19, 2020 by guilhermenogueira90

[Bonzo_fan]

As far as the three shows at MSG being the only ones, I believe some of the backstage footage is from Baltimore a few days earlier. If the tapes were rolling already for that show, even if it was only the audio, that would be quite a treat. If they did tape Baltimore though, I'm not sure why Page wouldn't have used some of Plant's vocals from it at the very least as it was arguably his best show of the year. He sure went to great lengths to fix some of Plant's issues at the MSG shows, so why wouldn't he just use the Baltimore vocals if he had them sitting there? Sadly, I've never read anything suggesting that the tapes were rolling already in Providence, which is my favourite '73 show.

It's not like the MSG shows are bad, but if they had recorded and filmed a week earlier instead...Seattle, Boston, Providence, Baltimore -- imagine the live album that could've been compiled from those shows!

[chillumpuffer]

I read somewhere that some of the Baltimore show was filmed as a prep for the New York run. Pity Joe Massot didn't learn anything? They also had cameras at Pittsburgh and some of the shots were used for the promo for Travelling Riverside Blues. 

[woz70]

7 hours ago, Bonzo_fan said:

As far as the three shows at MSG being the only ones, I believe some of the backstage footage is from Baltimore a few days earlier. If the tapes were rolling already for that show, even if it was only the audio, that would be quite a treat. If they did tape Baltimore though, I'm not sure why Page wouldn't have used some of Plant's vocals from it at the very least as it was arguably his best show of the year. He sure went to great lengths to fix some of Plant's issues at the MSG shows, so why wouldn't he just use the Baltimore vocals if he had them sitting there? Sadly, I've never read anything suggesting that the tapes were rolling already in Providence, which is my favourite '73 show.

It's not like the MSG shows are bad, but if they had recorded and filmed a week earlier instead...Seattle, Boston, Providence, Baltimore -- imagine the live album that could've been compiled from those shows!

With non-linear digital editing that would be relatively easy nowadays.
In 1976 it would have been ridiculously difficult, if not impossible to match a vocal from one show to the instruments from another.
Considering how much variation went on from song to song and from night to night in terms of tempo, dynamic and overall 'feel', I'm still not sure you could convincingly match a vocal from one night to the bands playing on a different night.

[Bonzo_fan]

34 minutes ago, woz70 said:

With non-linear digital editing that would be relatively easy nowadays.
In 1976 it would have been ridiculously difficult, if not impossible to match a vocal from one show to the instruments from another.
Considering how much variation went on from song to song and from night to night in terms of tempo, dynamic and overall 'feel', I'm still not sure you could convincingly match a vocal from one night to the bands playing on a different night.

That makes sense. I'm pretty sure he mixed and matched vocals and instruments between the three MSG nights though: http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/tgt.html

[woz70]

25 minutes ago, Bonzo_fan said:

That makes sense. I'm pretty sure he mixed and matched vocals and instruments between the three MSG nights though: http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/tgt.html

There was a lot of mixing and matching between whole sections of different nights in some songs in the original release - but not just one instrument/voice.
The easiest way to deal with it (and I think what they actually did) would have been to mix all three nights to stereo, and then edit together the 'best' bits to make an entire performance.

By the time Kevin Shirley got onto the case in 2003 there was the ability to mix and match discrete tracks in each song (hence he was able to glue the mellotron from Stairway in Southampton into Stairway on HTWWW when Jones was actually still using the organ) and even to correct duff notes and incorrect timings. This would absolutely not have been possible in '76.

Edited June 19, 2020 by woz70

[chillumpuffer]

Still can't polish a turd though.

I remember when the film and album came out, I read a review in one of the big music papers which said the film won't win any converts but the album might. I, of course, loved all of it as a 15 year old. But as I, like many over the years, analysing the footage and knowing what we know now how it was made it's just a bit of a mess. Being a perfectionist as Page is, I'm surprised it ever got released. 

[pluribus]

Eddie Kramer doing Page's bidding at Electric Lady, chopping up the three MSG Performances.

 

[guilhermenogueira90]

Thanks for the responses.
How much is the footage of Bailtmore, do they still exist? Does the page have a safe with videos of the band and he just don't want to launch it?

Sorry for the questions. I read somewhere that Page doesn't want to work on the shows, because he already has a lot of the band in a pirate way, what I conclude from this is: he doesn't want to work on something that has been publicized there for years.

But it would be amazing to have videos from the 73rd tour, as it is the band's biggest peak and is in top form. Of course, at that time having video recording was very expensive, but I think the band could afford it.

[porgie66]

This topic comes up from time to time, and it still amazes and frustrates me that more footage, alternate takes, Bonzo's solo (!!!) can't be cobbled together for a special release. Something like... "The Song Remains The Same -  An Alternate Perspective "

 

Maybe it has something to do with the rights owner of the film..(Warner) ??  How happy would all Zep fans be if they had the fantasy sequence footage replaced with the actual playing,  (do you mean to tell me the dumb ass film crew didn't get Jimmy's solo on No Q or Bonzo's drum solo??) or alternate versions of songs , or even a full stage view , house shot  ( like the end of Rock and Roll) . I'll never understand how there could be so many gaps , these guys must've been hacks.  Probably will never happen and the film will just rot in the vaults. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by porgie66

[Bonzo_fan]

8 hours ago, porgie66 said:

This topic comes up from time to time, and it still amazes and frustrates me that more footage, alternate takes, Bonzo's solo (!!!) can't be cobbled together for a special release. Something like... "The Song Remains The Same -  An Alternate Perspective "

 

Maybe it has something to do with the rights owner of the film..(Warner) ??  How happy would all Zep fans be if they had the fantasy sequence footage replaced with the actual playing,  (do you mean to tell me the dumb ass film crew didn't get Jimmy's solo on No Q or Bonzo's drum solo??) or alternate versions of songs , or even a full stage view , house shot  ( like the end of Rock and Roll) . I'll never understand how there could be so many gaps , these guys must've been hacks.  Probably will never happen and the film will just rot in the vaults. 

I've wondered this too.  They really should hire an archivist like the Dead have so that there's at least someone with more of a fan's perspective who has a seat at the table as it were.  Perhaps whoever gets the keys to the vault after Page is gone will have a different approach to what's deemed release-worthy.

[Canadianzepper]

My guess about Pages having gems hidden in the vault just based on what I've read is that basically he released all he wished to in the remaster, limited edition releases.  There is certainly other stuff, but none he deemed of value to his standards.  He has basically put his his final touches on Led Zeppelin.  He wanted it done right and his way while he could still have a say on it all.

 

Someone will profit from it someday I'm sure.  Just as they have with Hendrix.  The appetite of a new generation for Zeppelin stuff far outweighs Jimis following.  Thanks, in at least some part, his estate not even allowing releases of standard songs on youtube.  In 2020 and beyond, this is how you gain new fans from music written long ago.  How else will new generations hear it if they aren't exposed to it?

[Strider]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:56 PM, guilhermenogueira90 said:

Hi there. Well, first I'm sorry if this topic is in the wrong place. I don't use this forum, so the people in charge can move it to the right place.

My question is as follows,
Jimmy Page probably owns the footage from the 3 shows at MSG 73, right or wrong?

If so, do you know if he has already said anything about filming and if he intends to release it to fans?

Another question, only these 3 shows were filmed in 73 or does Page have a safe full of these jewels but doesn't want to launch?

Thank you guys, hugs.

It depends on what form and what name Jimmy Page wants to release the 1973 footage under.

First of all, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that Led Zeppelin took a film crew wherever they went and had the mobile truck recording every show. They didn't operate like that. Unlike the Beatles, The Who, the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan, etc., Led Zeppelin were camera shy and weren't looking to the future with the idea that a vault full of archival material would be useful as technology and sound improved.

Because "The Song Remains the Same" was a theatrical film with a director, the copyright is very strict. Any use of the 1973 footage using that title has to adhere to the original release. That is why the remastered film and soundtrack made things even more confusing rather than clear the mess up.

Now, if Jimmy wants to collect the 1973 footage and release it as "An Evening with Led Zeppelin in New York" or "Cosmic Energy" or "Monkeys Flying Out of My Arse", then he can tell Warner Brothers and the heirs of  Joe Massot/Peter Clifton to fuck off and put out the whole shebang in complete form...or as complete a form as they can.

The problem is that no one seems to know if there is enough existing film footage from 1973 to put out a complete show. Even the alternate cuts that have escaped into trading circles show that significant gaps in songs remain the same. 

They didn't think to capture the 1973 tour until it was almost too late and then left the execution up to some film school rejects. 1973 will sadly remain a golden opportunity slightly squandered.

But at least we have what we have...a couple of precious hours of Led Zeppelin captured on glorious 35mms film in glorious multitrack sound. That's better than the rudimentary videotape footage from Earls Court and Knebworth.

[Jukkin]

"How happy would all Zep fans be if they had the fantasy sequence footage replaced with the actual playing,"

<cough!> In For A Quick Garden <cough!>

A long way from perfect but a decent attempt.

[rm2551]

5 hours ago, Jukkin said:

"How happy would all Zep fans be if they had the fantasy sequence footage replaced with the actual playing,"

<cough!> In For A Quick Garden <cough!>

A long way from perfect but a decent attempt.

I think I have read in here how there is not the footage available to make that possible. Wasn't a lot of footage either botched (at time of filming, which is why they needed to do stage stuff to fill in some missing pieces) and also destroyed? I am sure there is not footage in cans that could present '73 MSG in all it's glory (again, from what others in here have commented in the past).

I've also never heard of anyone associated with the production companies, the Zeppelin camp, Warner, or anyone ever talking about unused potential footage. Maybe someone in a Zeppelin book has spoken about it????

IF Page has all the footage and it is simply a matter of copyright and legal stuff - or a will to do something with it, that would be the second greatest tragedy of Led Zeppelin. But I don't believe that to be the case.

[Jukkin]

I'm going to add these details from the Fanedit(or). If they should not be here then apologies, I will remove them. They detail just what the edits are and what changes were made. Like I said, it's a long way from perfect but is a decent stab at making a 'real' concert video.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brief Synopsis:
Despite some great live music captured in the movie, the concert is constantly interrupted by something either fairly uninteresting (dull documentary footage that seems staged) or seriously drowned in vanity (the band home movies, or fantasy sequences).

This edit shows one complete uninterrupted concert out of all official footage available.
Intention:
The official soundtrack LP is a must-have live album, and I always wondered how the movie would look like if it followed the LP more closely.

Previous attempts made by others are available, but they felt a bit crude so I decided to try doing the assembly myself.
Additional Notes:
Be aware that this movie is infamous for having been badly edited at the time. Especially regarding the sound/visual synchro.

When preparing the restored DVD/Blu-Ray in 2007, Jimmy Page was not allowed to modify any footage of the film due to copyrights issues, but he did modify the soundtrack heavily to make it more in sync with the visuals.

While being a huge improvement, many out-of-sync moment remains.
Other Sources:
-The 2007 double DVD bonus disc: Celebration Day (Cutting Copy), Over The Hills and Far Away, The Ocean, Misty Mountain Hop
-The Led Zeppelin 2003 double DVD: Black Dog, Since I've Been Loving You, various crowd shots and backstage footage (from menu)
-8mm footage from the concerts released by the band on Youtube: dialogues, performance gap in Dazed and Confused
-An old VHS called "The First Cuts": alternative live concert shots for Rain Song and The Song Remains The Same
-The remixed soundtrack from 2007 (double CD): Heartbreaker, dialogues, crowd
-The official soundtrack from 1976 (Cd from the nineties): dialogues
Special Thanks:
Alain Le Roux, for whom this edit is dedicated,
Paul Currie, from Yeeshkul!, for his kindness in providing rare footage across the Atlantic free-of-charge,
Eddie Edwards, author of The Garden Tapes, for his deep research into this concert recording,
Neglify, from the FanEdit forum, for being patient while guiding me through the approval process,
TM2YC, from the FanEdit forum, for the absolutly fabulous artwork,
And of course the guys from the Led Zeppelin forum. Keep on rocking!

CHANGES

Editing Details:
-Jimmy Page used voluntarily 8mm and VHS footage for the LZ DVD 2003 footage. And for great artistic effect. I used the same technique: additive transitions, aspect ratio preserved, color correction, and syncing with the soundtrack.
-The soundtrack is entirely made of the Kevin Shirley fantastic stereo mix. That is the glue that holds the movie together: while the visuals can be rough sometimes, the soundtrack quality kicks ass.
Cuts and Additions:
ADDITIONS:
-4 new songs included: Celebration Day, Over The Hills and Far Away, The Ocean, and Misty Mountain Hop.
-Added a few dialogues between songs using a combination of 8mm footage and the album sountrack.
-Heartbreaker is included! Fully! This was made possible by using every backstage footage cut from the movie, and the 2007 CD, to create a brand new documentary/fantasy sequence,.
-Black Dog is now complete, thanks to the alternate edit from LZ DVD 2003.

ALTERATIONS:
-The concert plays with the songs in their original playing order, and the music plays without any interruption.
-The credits are now at the end of the movie.
-Since I've Been Loving You use an alternate edit made for the Led Zeppelin 2003 DVD for the sole reason of being much more in sync then it's original counterpart.
-A random backstage shot inserted in Dazed and Confused is now replaced by real concert footage.
-The Song Remains The Same and Rain Song are entirely re-edited to include more actual performance footage, and less of Robert Plant fantasy sequence.

DELETIONS:
-Backstage dialogues are gone.
-Documentary parts are also gone.
-The robbery sequence is cut. Any allusions to it is gone.
-The band "home movies" introduction is cut, as well as Peter Grant and Richard Cole fantasy sequence. The concert starts right away.

TECHNICAL FIXES:
-LZ 2003 DVD footage have their original aspect ratio corrected (using frames from the movie as reference), and level-adjusted (the blacks were crushed).
-"First Cuts" footage have been corrected in many aspects: colors, speed, sync and aspect ratio (using frames from the movie as reference).
-Black levels and contrats should remian consistent through the movie despite the varying footage quality.

[Sticks of Fire]

I have to say I doubt the gaps are as bad as the band has made it seem.   I’m thinking a couple/few songs have gaps but once they decided to have the fantasy sequences added, some good and complete footage had to be axed in order to give room for the 4 band members and Peter to be given equal screen time for the fantasy parts.  
 

Sure some may be missing but I’ll bet there is a lot that is fine and complete and usable.  It’s tragic they haven’t done anything with it.  

Edited June 29, 2020 by Sticks of Fire

[1998giventofly]

5 hours ago, Sticks of Fire said:

I have to say I doubt the gaps are as bad as the band has made it seem.   I’m thinking a couple/few songs have gaps but once they decided to have the fantasy sequences added, some good and complete footage had to be axed in order to give room for the 4 band members and Peter to be given equal screen time for the fantasy parts.  
 

Sure some may be missing but I’ll bet there is a lot that is fine and complete and usable.  It’s tragic they haven’t done anything with it.  

I agree, I'm sure there are decent chunks missing because of the incompetency of the filmmakers, but then again, there also has to be some footage that we haven't seen. Considering all three nights were filmed, as well as the extras in Shepperton, I'd imagine there's a significant chunk of really great unreleased film.

That said, Page would have to create a standalone release for us to see any extra footage, because editing the actual TSRTS film would take jumping through a lot of legal/copyright hoops.

[frankencat]

How does one get a copy of this fanedit version?

Thank you.