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Canadianzepper

Who wrote the solo/break in Kashmir from 3:25-4:15

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Posted (edited)

So of all the great riffs, solos, musical achievements and arrangements I have always found the orchestra work and interplay with Plants description to be their most powerful and memorable, and obviously that's saying alot.  Just those approx. 50 seconds from 3:25-4:15 is what I am trying to understand.  Such creativity that no other band could come close to approaching.  Then of course Plant howls back into the cycling scale riff it's perfect.

I have searched and wondered about this.  Was it purely the creation of the orchestra or was it pre written by Page?  If this was simply paid work by a "session" violinist, I must know who they are so I can seek out their catalogue.  

 

Anyone know the orgin of this?  I have to discount it being Pages work simply based on the complexity of it that he couldn't have worked through on a guitar and bow.  If he did in fact construct that my level of admiration and awe, even if he worked it through somehow with the violinist.

 

P.S  I had at one time thought it might have been something JPJ might have wrote on his keyboard and it was then transcribed and translated into violin, but since he doesn't have a writing credit on the song, I have to discount that also.

Edited by Canadianzepper
addition

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Don't count JPJ out just because he didn't get a writing credit. The strings and brass players in there (that he orchestrated/arranged) also get no credit. Kashmir has JPJ's fingers all over it.

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2 hours ago, woz70 said:

Don't count JPJ out just because he didn't get a writing credit. The strings and brass players in there (that he orchestrated/arranged) also get no credit. Kashmir has JPJ's fingers all over it.

Slightly OT and just my personal opinion, but I suspect JPJ ought to have more credits than he does. He once said "if people think Page & Plant presented me & Bonham with songs and we just had to learn them, that's so far from the truth". This was a genuine collaborative band. 

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Jojesy also,wrote the epic "ascending" riff at end of Kashmir.  It's complicated but it's part of the arrangement, not the song itself.  But yeah, Jonesy did all that

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This has come up before about JPJ and getting songwriting credits.  I suspect that he lost out in getting them sometimes, even though he played a big part in song construction/development.  I realize that getting a full credit can be a gray area and it's not always black and white.  I can't help but thinking that what with Page's control, being the producer, and love of money, in contrast to JPJs easy-going and non-confrontational personality, those 50/50 decisions on who got credits didn't get shared. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, NealR2000 said:

This has come up before about JPJ and getting songwriting credits.  I suspect that he lost out in getting them sometimes, even though he played a big part in song construction/development.  I realize that getting a full credit can be a gray area and it's not always black and white.  I can't help but thinking that what with Page's control, being the producer, and love of money, in contrast to JPJs easy-going and non-confrontational personality, those 50/50 decisions on who got credits didn't get shared. 

Until I hear and see some information, I can't assume he was the writer of this particular part of the song.  I also can't imagine that if he wrote much of this stuff in a song that all members agree was a high water mark AND, as is well known, he arranged the song, that he wouldn't receive writing credit.  You are right in that he probably got screwed over a few times, and I believe that was one reason he was considering leaving the band to become a school teacher.

 

Bands are very protective of information, especially in the 1970's.  As an example, Page as a session player played guitar on many groups work without credit, some of this work required creative and artistic freedom.  He would receive his pay for his time and that was that.  No royalties or credit.

Edited by Canadianzepper
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10 minutes ago, Canadianzepper said:

Until I hear and see some information, I can't assume he was the writer of this particular part of the song.  I also can't imagine that if he wrote much of this stuff in a song that all members agree was a high water mark AND, as is well known, he arranged the song, that he wouldn't receive writing credit.  You are right in that he probably got screwed over a few times, and I believe that was one reason he was considering leaving the band to become a school teacher.

Look at 'The Rain Song'.
The string (mellotron) arrangement is all JPJ, and the song would not be what it is without it, and it's definitely his arrangement - He didn't get a writing credit.

Look at 'Stairway to Heaven'
The recorder arrangement (and playing) at the beginning is all Jonesy - No writing credit


If you do a bit of research around the Page/Plant era (when Jones was mightily pissed off about not being involved, or being informed about it directly), one of his main gripes was that they were using recreations of his string arrangements (specifically Rain Song and Kashmir) without him being there.

He was an arranger before Zeppelin, and he still arranges for strings  - listen to Zooma (Snake Eyes), much of REM's 'Automatic For The People' for good examples.

Jimmy Page is not a string arranger, so it's highly unlikely he did it, although he may have had input into the direction it went.  RP can play the guitar a bit, and the harmonica.  JB was a drummer, certainly with no orchestral experience.

So, whilst It's an assumption that it was JPJ, it really isn't much of an assumption, more a simple process of elimination.  They weren't going to bring anyone else in to do it if Jonesy could do it (and he could and still does)... the brass and string players they hired for the session definitely won't have come with their own arrangement - that just doesn't happen when you hire session musicians.

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Despite Jimmy's greatness, session work, etc., he certainly could have input on that section, but he doesn't and never has had

a full orchestrator's ear. JPJ would change his bass/keys parts live without the slightest trouble without mistakes, whereas

Jimmy could improvise mildly on song verses. Best expressed, Jonesy could sub like a jazz player, and hear what the result 

would be in his head, Jimmy is still great, but if called on the spot to do some chord subs on the Rain Song, no dice.

Few rock players could do this, just illustrating a point: Jonesy is genius with the rest.

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ok, a bit shit I cannot provide a source, but it sticks in my memory that in an interview Page (I think it's Page) says for the first break Jonesey had a crack at creating something and got 90% of the structure on the first or second attempt. It was that good, they did not have to change it at all and went with it as Page was really impressed with it.

Maybe SAJ or someone might be able to back me up with the source, I honestly can't remember where I heard it (P&P tour Australian radio interview maybe???) - but I swear by it.

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1 hour ago, rm2551 said:

ok, a bit shit I cannot provide a source, but it sticks in my memory that in an interview Page (I think it's Page) says for the first break Jonesey had a crack at creating something and got 90% of the structure on the first or second attempt. It was that good, they did not have to change it at all and went with it as Page was really impressed with it.

Maybe SAJ or someone might be able to back me up with the source, I honestly can't remember where I heard it (P&P tour Australian radio interview maybe???) - but I swear by it.

Come to think of it, this actually rings a bell

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JPJ has stated that Kashmir is "one of his favorite LZ songs", he also said "I didn't write Kashmir". He did what he did with every Zeppelin song whether or not he was receiving a writing credit, he took it to another level. I think JPJ was treated fairly (for the most part) where writing credits are concerned. Out of the 73 songs written from LZI to ITTOD JPJ received writing credits on 31 tracks, thats over 40 percent. He's fared much better than any of his peers in comparison for sure. The guys worth about 80 million dollars, most of which came from being in a band that ended 37 yrs ago. 

Seems to have worked out for JPJ any way you look at it, IMO.  

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47 minutes ago, blindwillie127 said:

JPJ has stated that Kashmir is "one of his favorite LZ songs", he also said "I didn't write Kashmir". He did what he did with every Zeppelin song whether or not he was receiving a writing credit, he took it to another level. I think JPJ was treated fairly (for the most part) where writing credits are concerned. Out of the 73 songs written from LZI to ITTOD JPJ received writing credits on 31 tracks, thats over 40 percent. He's fared much better than any of his peers in comparison for sure. The guys worth about 80 million dollars, most of which came from being in a band that ended 37 yrs ago. 

Seems to have worked out for JPJ any way you look at it, IMO.  

When compared to how Jaggar & Richards treated the rest of The Stones when it came to song writing credit, I would have to agree that Jonsey got a fair shake. 

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What's also true is only Jimmy and Bonzo came up with the opening yet reoccurring riff. It's cool also that Jimmy admits 90%

of the rest of the tune came from Jones. Although if I remember Jimmy came up with this descending riff which Jones

didn't think would jell., yet it worked ultimately

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Posted (edited)

Song credits can be tricky. The line is super blurry

Im pretty sure Page wrote the solo for South Bound Saurez - No credits

Pretty sure Bonham wrote the iconic drum parts for songs like Sick Again and Achilles Last Stand - no credits

Pretty sure that Jonesy had something to do with his parts in The Rain Song - no credits

Pretty Sure Plant had something to do with the new vocal melody in Zeppelins version of You Shook Me - no credits.

 

Edited by rebeldhipi

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, rebeldhipi said:

Song credits can be tricky. The line is super blurry

Im pretty sure Page wrote the solo for South Bound Saurez - No credits

Pretty sure Bonham wrote the iconic drum parts for songs like Sick Again and Achilles Last Stand - no credits

Pretty sure that Jonesy had something to do with his parts in The Rain Song - no credits

Pretty Sure Plant had something to do with the new vocal melody in Zeppelins version of You Shook Me - no credits.

 

I agree, the line is very blurry at times but basically I think whoever comes up with the main melody and harmonic structure of the song is the composer. A drummer usually doesn't get writing credits for a unique beat, unless it's a drum solo or is directly inspired the main riff or melody. Bonzo certainly made unique contributions to songs but that's not enough to get credit. I seem to recall reading that the chromatic ascending main theme of Kashmir was his idea , so in that case he deserves writing credit.  Bonzo has around 20 songs credited so I'd say he did ok. He's credited for Good Times Bad Times but Jones said he wrote the riff. I guess Bonzos unique drum beat got him composers credit however he doesn't get credit for Poor Tom which is a very integral part of the song. Who knows. 

 

Jones interpretation of Kashmir isn't that same as coming up with the melody or harmony. As a bass player and keyboard player, he's doing that all the time. The fact that he is an acknowledged composer on many Zep tunes seems to indicate that there wasn't an attempt to down play his contributions compositionally. The section you are talking about at 3:25 to 4:19 I always assumed was Jones improvising on the mellotron. There are two separate lines...one high, one low.  They sound different in tone to me than the strings on the rest of the song. Same thing at the end of the song , starting at 6:41 to the end....sounds like he's improvising on the mellotron. Do we know for a fact if all of that is a written part played by strings?? The ascending line sounds like strings but not the fills. Those sound like an improvised accompaniment to the vocals. 

Edited by porgie66

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, porgie66 said:

The section you are talking about at 3:25 to 4:19 I always assumed was Jones improvising on the mellotron. 

Yes the most prominent part here is JPJ playing the "3 violins" tape on a Mellotron. John Paul Jones also did arrange the orchestra. His original score was sold at auction a few years back.

Edited by babysquid

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Posted (edited)
On 13/08/2017 at 6:30 AM, Canadianzepper said:

So of all the great riffs, solos, musical achievements and arrangements I have always found the orchestra work and interplay with Plants description to be their most powerful and memorable, and obviously that's saying alot.  Just those approx. 50 seconds from 3:25-4:15 is what I am trying to understand.  Such creativity that no other band could come close to approaching.  Then of course Plant howls back into the cycling scale riff it's perfect.

I have searched and wondered about this.  Was it purely the creation of the orchestra or was it pre written by Page?  If this was simply paid work by a "session" violinist, I must know who they are so I can seek out their catalogue.  

 

Anyone know the orgin of this?  I have to discount it being Pages work simply based on the complexity of it that he couldn't have worked through on a guitar and bow.  If he did in fact construct that my level of admiration and awe, even if he worked it through somehow with the violinist.

 

P.S  I had at one time thought it might have been something JPJ might have wrote on his keyboard and it was then transcribed and translated into violin, but since he doesn't have a writing credit on the song, I have to discount that also.

Orchestras very rarely just make stuff up, they work to a score provided by the arranger. 

Ok it's John Paul Jones playing a Mellotron but why would you "have" to discount it as Jimmy's work? And why do you assume that he'd have had to work it out on guitar with a bow? He could have written the melody on any instrument .

Edited by babysquid

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On 13/08/2017 at 6:30 AM, Canadianzepper said:

 If this was simply paid work by a "session" violinist, I must know who they are so I can seek out their catalogue.  

For the Mellotron tapes (copied from the original chamberlin tapes) the violins were originally recorded by 3 members of the Laurence Welk orchestra.

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"trying to find...trying to find...where ive beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen"

 

when robert holds that note and the band goes back into the main riff is my favorite led zep moment on record. gives me goosebumps no matter how many times i hear it. 

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5 hours ago, corduroyg said:

"trying to find...trying to find...where ive beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen"

 

when robert holds that note and the band goes back into the main riff is my favorite led zep moment on record. gives me goosebumps no matter how many times i hear it. 

Yeah, that's one of the biggest. There are many of those moments on Physical Graffiti. Ten Years Gone is full of them for me. IMTOD has a few including "That's gotta be the one out there!" Which was such a great thing to leave on the record. The intro drums to the rover, I have not heard better. Bonham deserves writing credits just for that intro! Many other moments on that album...

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I say john paul jones....jimmy was a punk rocker

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Posted (edited)

It goes against what most of us would see as 'natural justice', but the harsh reality of it is that 'arranging' isn't 'writing' and doesn't get you into the writing credits.
Mick Ronson lost out on literally millions of bucks cos his massive contributions to Bowie's music weren't classed as co-writes but as 'arrangements' of Bowie's ideas/music/melodies. 
According to Tony Visconti, Bowie often handed Ronson a couple of chords and a sketch of a melody and Ronson did the rest - but the credits said 'Written by Bowie, arranged by Ronson'
because Bowie had come up with the basic ideas/tune/melody and Ronson had 'merely' embellished them.  
Similarly, no one doubts that JPJ's string arrangement hugely enhances Kashmir - but the original music for Kashmir came from Jimmy's riff, not Jonesy's strings, so it doesn't qualify as actual 'songwriting'.
I know it sucks - but that's the reason and it's that simple.  
People usually go 'But Jimmy gave Bonzo a share of the Kashmir credits for his drum part!' and yeh, it does seem harsh to do that, while spurning JPJ's contribution.
According to Jimmy, however, he gave Bonzo the co-credit because the drums helped him to shape the riff in the first place, so he thought they were crucial to the actual writing of Kashmir,
whereas Jonesy's strings were a later embellishment.
Again - that sucks for JPJ, but that's why the credits read the way they do.
Ere - do you reckon Jimmy told Jonesy himself or do you think he got Peter Grant to explain it to him...?

Edited by Brigante

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57 minutes ago, Brigante said:

It goes against what most of us would see as 'natural justice', but the harsh reality of it is that 'arranging' isn't 'writing' and doesn't get you into the writing credits.
Mick Ronson lost out on literally millions of bucks cos his massive contributions to Bowie's music weren't classed as co-writes but as 'arrangements' of Bowie's ideas/music/melodies. 
According to Tony Visconti, Bowie often handed Ronson a couple of chords and a sketch of a melody and Ronson did the rest - but the credits said 'Written by Bowie, arranged by Ronson'
because Bowie had come up with the basic ideas/tune/melody and Ronson had 'merely' embellished them.  
Similarly, no one doubts that JPJ's string arrangement hugely enhances Kashmir - but the original music for Kashmir came from Jimmy's riff, not Jonesy's strings, so it doesn't qualify as actual 'songwriting'.
I know it sucks - but that's the reason and it's that simple.  
People usually go 'But Jimmy gave Bonzo a share of the Kashmir credits for his drum part!' and yeh, it does seem harsh to do that, while spurning JPJ's contribution.
According to Jimmy, however, he gave Bonzo the co-credit because the drums helped him to shape the riff in the first place, so he thought they were crucial to the actual writing of Kashmir,
whereas Jonesy's strings were a later embellishment.
Again - that sucks for JPJ, but that's why the credits read the way they do.

I think you've explained this perfectly. The key word was "embellish" which is basically what is done naturally, thats what all musicians do. Also, I seriously doubt JPJ was expecting to be credited for Kashmir after not getting credited for tracks like STH or RS, both of which I think JPJ contribution to was even more significant than Kashmir. Man, you listen to ALS and can't help but think that both JPJ and Bonham have to be credited as co-writer's of this song due to the obvious magnitude of their playing on it. But, they didn't write it. They sure as hell embellished the shit out of though, thats for sure. As usual. 

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