N. Korea angrily makes nuclear threat

[Anjin-san]

Red herring.

[TypeO]

So if I raise questions which are historical fact than I am sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but when you do the same regarding Benghazi it is somehow different. Your position that the intel regarding 911 is easy to understand AFTER the attack but not before the attack is completely wrong. The CIA and FBI had been SCREAMING to the administration for over two months prior that an attack, from the air, on NY was IMMINENT yet nothing was done.

I am not saying mistakes, big ones, were not made regarding Benghazi (drawing down support after a bi-partisan congress voted to reduce funding with a majority of republicans signing on), just as mistakes were made regarding 911. What I am saying is mistakes do happen and I was neither privy to the administrations "vibe" so to speak either pre-911 or pre-Bengahzi, nor is anyone else outside of the inner circle, so there really is no way to determine what is politics, mistake, negligence, or malice. It is nothing but armchair quarterbacking in the end.

You insist I concede that the intel preceding 9/11 was on par with the intel leading into Benghazi, but they simply aren't on the same level of specificity.

an attack, from the air, on NY was IMMINENT

"SOMEWHERE in New York City (an area of around 6,720 square miles), very soon, or even imminent" isn't on the same level of detail as "the Embassy in Benghazi has sent repeated requests for help/aid and is now under attack."

And how do we know "NOTHING was done" leading up to 9/11?

Certainly they failed to stop the attack, but I find it hard to believe nothing was done, and I certainly don't believe the Bush White House refused or took measures to lessen security in some way, as the Obama administration did in issuing specific orders for a General preparing to send aid to stand down, and then ordering to relieve him of command immediately afterward.

Nowhere near as much detail - in nowhere near as much specificity - was known about 9/11 as is known about Benghazi.

The only thing that makes me stare open-mouthed in utter disbelief (as most anyone but the most hopelessly hardened of partisan party-liners should also do) is the fact that the phrase "what difference does it make now" is an acceptable explanation for this fiasco.

Try to imagine the fucking feeding frenzy the media would have gone into had the same statement been used in response to congressional inquiry into 9/11.

Yet last week, Hillary was roundly lauded - she was fucking PRAISED and CONGRATULATED - by the media and Party stalwarts (pretty much one and the same, no?) for her "fiery" response to those evil Republicans demanding answers for the Benghazi clusterfuck.

It's nauseating on a level that I have difficulty maintaining a disconnect from it all.

Because if you contemplate it too long you want to just yell until you can't yell anymore.

Much like Michelle Obama famously stated how "for the first time in (her) adult lifetime, (she is) really proud of (her) country", for the first time in my life, I am absolutely ashamed of my country.

And it's a bad feeling.

[The Rover]

Time for Frankie . . . .

[redirtuo]

re: 911

I find it ironic that all the repundits demanding Benghazi answers regarding who knew the what and when intelligence etc etc and pointing fingers at an administration for dead Americans had very little to say to another administration about invading a country looking for WMD based on intelligence they were told was not accurate yet still insisted upon acting on it and causing THOUSANDS of American deaths along the way spending billions upon billions of our nation's treasure instead of focusing on the hunt for the fuckers we were supposed to be killing instead because I spent four years on an aircraft carrier and found it pretty damn shaming seeing Bush land in a flight suit with a banner flying, "Mission Accomplished"

[Sagittarius Rising]

You insist I concede that the intel preceding 9/11 was on par with the intel leading into Benghazi, but they simply aren't on the same level of specificity.

an attack, from the air, on NY was IMMINENT

"SOMEWHERE in New York City (an area of around 6,720 square miles), very soon, or even imminent" isn't on the same level of detail as "the Embassy in Benghazi has sent repeated requests for help/aid and is now under attack."

And how do we know "NOTHING was done" leading up to 9/11?

Certainly they failed to stop the attack, but I find it hard to believe nothing was done, and I certainly don't believe the Bush White House refused or took measures to lessen security in some way, as the Obama administration did in issuing specific orders for a General preparing to send aid to stand down, and then ordering to relieve him of command immediately afterward.

Nowhere near as much detail - in nowhere near as much specificity - was known about 9/11 as is known about Benghazi.

The only thing that makes me stare open-mouthed in utter disbelief (as most anyone but the most hopelessly hardened of partisan party-liners should also do) is the fact that the phrase "what difference does it make now" is an acceptable explanation for this fiasco.

Try to imagine the fucking feeding frenzy the media would have gone into had the same statement been used in response to congressional inquiry into 9/11.

Yet last week, Hillary was roundly lauded - she was fucking PRAISED and CONGRATULATED - by the media and Party stalwarts (pretty much one and the same, no?) for her "fiery" response to those evil Republicans demanding answers for the Benghazi clusterfuck.

It's nauseating on a level that I have difficulty maintaining a disconnect from it all.

Because if you contemplate it too long you want to just yell until you can't yell anymore.

Much like Michelle Obama famously stated how "for the first time in (her) adult lifetime, (she is) really proud of (her) country", for the first time in my life, I am absolutely ashamed of my country.

And it's a bad feeling.

Keep spinning there TypeO, everyone knows there was plenty of hard evidence leading up to 911 which was ignored. Bush even went on vacation!

I am also sorry you feel ashamed for the first time to be an American because I think I was ashamed for the first time when I was around eight and found out we did pretty much the same thing to the native Americans that the Nazi's did to the Jews except without the aid of gas chambers. Our leaders have done many, many things to make me feel ashamed, even our best leaders. My country has also done many, many things to make me proud to be American, even our worst leaders had good moments (well, except Buchanan and Harrison).

I do not nor ever will believe in American exceptionalism, we are human, good and bad just like everyone else on this planet and until we realize that we will continue to look like rubes and bullies to the majority of the world. We are all in this together and we all need to work together.

Now, about Korea... That Kim dude is a complete asshole, and, if he does not chill out his stupid adolescent posturing is going to throw the whole of the peninsula into a mighty conflagration. One shot, one kill. If we could only get someone close enough.

[DAS]

I have a question. What could you possibly achieve by attacking America? We are the strongest nation since the Roman Empire, we've never lost a war. Some little boy in an insignificant country is going to take on the greatest super power in the world and win? All he will achieve is getting himself strung up like Hussein. We regularly wipe nations like that off the bottom of our boots. How stupid can you be?

[Reggie29]

Vietnam was hardly a victory!?

Nice attitude you got there mate.

I have a question. What could you possibly achieve by attacking America? We are the strongest nation since the Roman Empire, we've never lost a war. Some little boy in an insignificant country is going to take on the greatest super power in the world and win? All he will achieve is getting himself strung up like Hussein. We regularly wipe nations like that off the bottom of our boots. How stupid can you be?

[gettinggold]

Scary stuff going on right now. North Korea makes provocative moves. Hope this doesn't mean full scale conflict.

[ally]

I have a question. What could you possibly achieve by attacking America? We are the strongest nation since the Roman Empire, we've never lost a war. Some little boy in an insignificant country is going to take on the greatest super power in the world

and win? All he will achieve is getting himself strung up like Hussein. We regularly wipe nations like that off the bottom of our boots. How stupid can you be?

Crazy people do crazy things and logic very rarely enters into the thought pattern. Personally, I think they're just sabre rattling hoping to negotiate better terms on the embargo but one can never fully tell when nutbar gangsters are in power

[Walter]

Vietnam was hardly a victory!?

Nice attitude you got there mate.

C'mon Reg, you're shattering his world with that....'victory' is a very subjective term to some - especially revisionists.

[Charles J. White]

We in the developed world must not allow North Korea to dissolve, otherwise we would be facing a global economic meltdown that would start with the collapse of South Korea which would be overwhelmed overnight - incapable of providing welfare for millions of new people at which point the economic ramifications spread into Japan, Taiwan, and Singapore and within days spread directly into Europe and North America. No matter how bad it is, they must make sure that an independent North Korea continues to exist.

[TypeO]

re: 911

I find it ironic that all the repundits demanding Benghazi answers regarding who knew the what and when intelligence etc etc and pointing fingers at an administration for dead Americans had very little to say to another administration about invading a country looking for WMD based on intelligence they were told was not accurate yet still insisted upon acting on it and causing THOUSANDS of American deaths along the way spending billions upon billions of our nation's treasure instead of focusing on the hunt for the fuckers we were supposed to be killing instead because I spent four years on an aircraft carrier and found it pretty damn shaming seeing Bush land in a flight suit with a banner flying, "Mission Accomplished"

Actually, it is a documented fact that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and used them on the Kurds in the north.

And until we kick the door in on every mosque there (oh, no - can't go into the mosques, even if they were using them as safe houses to attack and fire on our troops from because they knew we were ordered to respect mosques) and search them (we didn't), I'm not impressed by the lefty cries of "NO WMDs".

Mission Accomplished is another liberal concoction.

Bush never uttered the words.

The media forged a context between the banner congratulating that particular carrier group for completing its assigned mission and the overall war in general.

Keep spinning there TypeO, everyone knows there was plenty of hard evidence leading up to 911 which was ignored. Bush even went on vacation!

I am also sorry you feel ashamed for the first time to be an American because I think I was ashamed for the first time when I was around eight and found out we did pretty much the same thing to the native Americans that the Nazi's did to the Jews except without the aid of gas chambers. Our leaders have done many, many things to make me feel ashamed, even our best leaders. My country has also done many, many things to make me proud to be American, even our worst leaders had good moments (well, except Buchanan and Harrison).

Come on, Sag, this was from January.

I've completely lost the head of steam I had built up over the Benghazi inquiry and Hillary's incredible response, and how little was made of that response.

As for the Native Americans, we came here as any other people did as they spread throughout this world and fought whatever native people who inhabited the place at the time.

But that's not the same as an established state (Nazi Germany) organizing a genocide.

And we did it a few hundred years ago, when the dictates of civilization weren't as precisely defined and recognized as they were today or even last century when the Nazis did what they did.

Did we just invoke Godwin's Law? LOL

I do not nor ever will believe in American exceptionalism, we are human, good and bad just like everyone else on this planet and until we realize that we will continue to look like rubes and bullies to the majority of the world. We are all in this together and we all need to work together.

That's probably the biggest difference between us, Sag.

I do.

I don't see our country as faultless, but I see it as way ahead of the rest of the world for quite some time in regards to being a member of a global community.

We've stepped in when others wouldn't, and we offer aid even when it is criticized.

With power comes responsibility, and in general we try to do good, as opposed to evil.

Now, about Korea... That Kim dude is a complete asshole, and, if he does not chill out his stupid adolescent posturing is going to throw the whole of the peninsula into a mighty conflagration. One shot, one kill. If we could only get someone close

enough.

I think he's doing the old tried-and-true sabre-rattling to get some humanitarian aid (that he'll absolutely exploit) and get some of the sanctions adjusted, get some "settle down and play fair" money to help smooth over their economic woes.

It's a little too overt to be taken as a serious declaration.

But who knows?

I could be completely wrong and he may lauch a missile attack on South Korea this afternoon.

You never know with these psychos.

I suspect he'll eventually contract cancer, like Arafat and Chavez.

A very specific and common cancer among problematic leaders. LOL

[redirtuo]

"Actually, it is a documented fact that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and used them on the Kurds in the north."

Key word, 'had'

yea, but why didn't they go all the way in the first time then and take him out instead of waiting a decade or so worth of no fly zones later before finally 'deciding' to do something about it for the intro of "the war on terror"

So where were all these WMDs he had that were a threat to our country at that moment?

'Mission Accomplished is another liberal concoction.

Bush never uttered the words."

Didn't say he uttered them. His staff, THE WHITE HOUSE staff, put that banner up, under the guise of congratulating the crew. A job well done. Just so happened Bush landed in flight suit for the cameras right there under the banner for the photo op to talk about the iraq war? lol really.

I'm not a lefty or a righty fanboy. I just call it how I see it.

[Sagittarius Rising]

Hey there TypeO, you know I always love our debates and I respect you, spice of life ya know.

I have to disagree though regarding two points. Arguably the philosophical zenith of humanity, ethics, and civilization were the ideas put forth by the 18th century philosophers such as Voltaire, Spinoza, and Montesquieu who created the ideal of humanity. Our presidents and leaders followed the blueprints these men made when drawing up the Declaration of Independence and Constitution and establishing the direction of our nation from day one. Jackson and subsequent Presidents were well aware of this and were educated in these doctrines as well, they simply chose to either ignore them or believe certain "sub-humans" were exempt. Our 19th century leaders knew exactly what they were doing, there is no difference between what they did and what Hitler did, they were both instances of well thought out and planned genocide. To say others had done the same before us is a poor excuse akin to, "well my neighbor raped and killed his babysitter so why can't I?"

My problem with American Exceptionalism is the same problem I have with any nationalistic belief (The Nazi Fatherland, the Russian Motherland, The Japanese Empire, etc...). Any time a people believes they are better than everyone else for ANY reason, look out, it usually will not be too long before heads begin to roll.

[DAS]

Vietnam was hardly a victory!?

Nice attitude you got there mate.

Vietnam was a Civil War. America sent in military aid and then withdrew that aid when a ceasefire was agreed upon. Take a history class.

[Sagittarius Rising]

Vietnam was a Civil War. America sent in military aid and then withdrew that aid when a ceasefire was agreed upon. Take a history class.

I think it is you who should take a history class. Yes, it was a civil war, a civil war which was first initiated by the French when they refused to let go of a colonial holding, and then brought to fruition by the US by backing Diem after he deposed the rightful leader, Emperor Bao Dai. The US backed this madman fascist simply because Minh was a communist. Now remember, Minh originally petitioned the US for aid and backing in the 50's, however Ike's shitty advisors who claimed the Truman Doctrine sacrosanct, pushed Ike to back Diem simply for that fact, bloodthirsty psychopath or not. Once we realized Diem and his dragon wife were only gonna get worst, the CIA busted some caps in his ass and took him out. We later installed Gen Thieu as military dictator from 67' - 75'. Also, our military "aid" amounted to 536,000 troops in country during the height of the war. Our "aid" killed a total of 1,166,000 million North Vietnamese civilians & soldiers, and our "aid" cost the lives of 58,000 American soldiers killed plus an additional 304,000 wounded. That is some "aid."

Another fun fact: Johnson was about to bring peace to Vietnam in the summer of 68' (after he turned down a second run for office), the North Vietnamese were ready to sign and stop the war under favorable conditions. However, Nixon's staff intervened (kinda like Bush Sr with the Iran hostages) and put the cobash on that real quick knowing it would cost the dems the election. Johnson even discovered the plot after the fact but agreed not to let this go public for fear it would tear our nation apart. Nixon was guilty of treason and is responsible for those lives post 68.' This information is all available on-line at the Library of Congress archives which were released as part of a FOI request made a few years back. They even have the taped conversations... man, gotta love technology.

Class dismissed.

[Anjin-san]

WTF, does this have to with N. Korea?

MacArthur was right BTW.

[JTM]

WTF, does this have to with N. Korea?

MacArthur was right BTW.

Yeah. Right back in his dugout.

[Anjin-san]

Yeah. Right back in his dugout.

And 60 years later NK is still a problem,....

[TypeO]

"Actually, it is a documented fact that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and used them on the Kurds in the north."

Key word, 'had'

yea, but why didn't they go all the way in the first time then and take him out instead of waiting a decade or so worth of no fly zones later before finally 'deciding' to do something about it for the intro of "the war on terror"

So where were all these WMDs he had that were a threat to our country at that moment?

Key word, "had" indeed.

You implied there were "none".

As I said, my bet is they were hidden in the mosques.

It's not like tons of space was needed for them.

A half-acre of 55-gallon drums is enough to wipe out most everyone.

We were forbidden to enter mosques, and could only return fire if fired upon.

'Mission Accomplished is another liberal concoction.

Bush never uttered the words."

Didn't say he uttered them. His staff, THE WHITE HOUSE staff, put that banner up, under the guise of congratulating the crew. A job well done. Just so happened Bush landed in flight suit for the cameras right there under the banner for the photo op to talk about the iraq war? lol really.

So photo-ops bother you?

You must despise Obama, then.

I'm not a lefty or a righty fanboy. I just call it how I see it.

A favorite line of libs.

You just happen to "see it" through a decidedly liberal filter.

All of the comments you made were (and still are) prime liberal talking points.

[bcarter690]

<cough>

[JTM]

And 60 years later NK is still a problem,....

Always will be whilst the fatboy and his ilk have control.

[Anjin-san]

Always will be whilst the fatboy and his ilk have control.

Then you missed the point.Well done!

[JTM]

Then you missed the point.Well done!

I'll get my coat.

[mstork]

Why, when Obama and/or his administration deserve criticism or condemnation, do we persist in bringing up Bush? What the hell does 9/11 have to do with Benghazi?