War in Ukraine

[redrum]

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Didn't Castro die fairly recently?  He would qualify as a "worse autocrat than Putin in the last 25 years" or whatever.

👍

[ScarletMacaw]

2 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

It's a long, methodical process. The first and most important step is to destabilize and diminish the United States, which has been well under way for several years. They own the current political administration which is why for all the hand-wringing and cauterwauling about Ukraine and Russia Russia Russia we never hear a word in opposition to the Communist Chinese.

We never hear a word in opposition to the Communist Chinese? I think the government passed some sanctions in response to the Uighur concentration camps. Biden and Congress have been vocal in the support of Taiwan. Our problem is we buy enormous amounts of Chinese stuff instead of buying it from our allies or making it ourselves. Admitting China into the WTO was a horrible mistake. 

[ScarletMacaw]

5 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Arguably another government worse than Putin's is Ukraine's:

Everything you need to know about human rights in Ukraine - Amnesty International Amnesty International

Ukraine: Torture, Disappearances in East | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

Human Rights Groups Urge Ukraine To Fix Shortcomings In Proposed Reform Of Security Service (rferl.org)

UN report accuses Ukrainian government of human rights abuses - World Socialist Web Site (wsws.org)

Amusing. You cite "World Socialist Web" as a source. Do you think this is an objective news source????

If you actually read the Amnesty report, it includes reviews of both the areas controlled by the Ukrainian government and the areas controlled by the Russian separatists. The Kyiv government review is not that different from what Amnesty finds in many countries around the world including Western countries. 

[ScarletMacaw]

More reporting from the WSJ, about how civilians in the Kyiv region helped their troops: 

NOVYI BYKIV, Ukraine—As Ukraine’s forces fought to repel Russian troops from the Kyiv region, Ukrainian villagers along Highway 7 battled in their own way: calling in Ukrainian artillery strikes on a vital lifeline that Russia had mapped out for its assault on the capital.

At great risk to themselves, the villagers shared tips and Google map locations with local authorities, turning the highway that runs between the Russian border and Kyiv into a big logistical defeat for Moscow. The intelligence they gleaned helped bring Ukrainian fire on numerous Russian units.

The strategy underscored fierce Ukrainian resistance as villagers put themselves and their homes on the front lines, turning quiet village life into an uneasy and sometimes deadly coexistence with Russian troops.

“Everyone here was doing all they could to get Russian troop movement across to our boys,” said Natalia Mohilni, a homemaker in Novyi Bykiv, who had called in soldier locations in and around the village, where locals said the Russians had set up a mobile crematorium to discard the dead.

Destroyed hospital at Novyi Bykiv village, Chernihiv region, near the Kyiv-Sumy highway.

Destroyed ambulances at the hospital at Novyi Bykiv village, Chernihiv region, near the Kyiv-Sumy highway.

Ms. Mohilni’s own two-story house was shelled during exchanges, and a firefight with Ukrainian soldiers ultimately leveled the village’s main hospital, where Russian troops had stored ammunition and armored personnel carriers.

“No one wants the destruction, but we wanted the Russians even less,” she said. “Not having a chimney means we need to wait to use the wood oven, but that’s fine.”

The strikes against the incoming Russian formations prevented crucial reinforcements and supplies from reaching Kyiv from the east, leaving Moscow’s troops undermanned and undersupplied, said Ukrainian officials and defense analysts. By the end of March, Russia had decided its attempt to seize Kyiv had failed and repositioned its forces in the country’s east..." 

[cryingbluerain]

9 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

 

1. Being outraged over murders of civilians, bombing civilians hiding in a basement, rape of women and children, leveling entire cities, is not "moral posturing." It's moral outrage. Unless you're a sociopath.

 

See the complete disaster at our southern border.  I guess we should only be concerned if those things are happening in Ukraine.  /s

[rm2551]

15 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

3. China has intended to take back Taiwan for a long time and hasn't because they've been afraid.

I don't think it is fear, it is China playing the long game. They realise the situation calls for patience and the status quo actually suits them while they prepare, but they will attempt unification at some point, and soon. By force or coercion depending on circumstance.

By force will not be easy for a while yet but Taiwan definitely needs to go hard on defence spending now.

[ScarletMacaw]

In case anyone is still confused about Russia's aims: 

"

"Despite Russia’s battlefield difficulties, Mr. Putin hasn’t given up on aspirations to seize all or most of Ukraine, and sees the campaign for Donbas as just a stage in this grander plan, Ukrainian and U.S. officials say. Senior Russian government personalities and Russian TV propaganda continue to call for eliminating Ukraine as a sovereign state.

“The very concept of Ukraine should not exist in the future, and neither should the concept of a Ukrainian,” Oleg Matveychev, a senior lawmaker from Russia’s ruling party and former Kremlin adviser, said last week."--The Wall Street Journal, May 12. 

[SteveAJones]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:52 AM, rm2551 said:

Taiwan definitely needs to go hard on defense spending now.

Taiwan is a tiny island. The Chinese merely need to encircle it and starve them to the point of surrender.

[SteveAJones]

17 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

In case anyone is still confused about Russia's aims: 

“The very concept of Ukraine should not exist in the future, and neither should the concept of a Ukrainian,” Oleg Matveychev, a senior lawmaker from Russia’s ruling party and former Kremlin adviser, said last week."--The Wall Street Journal, May 12. 

It's an arguable point. Ukraine is not a country so much as it is an international slush fund for globalists. 10% to the Big Guy.

[rm2551]

1 hour ago, SteveAJones said:

Taiwan is a tiny island. The Chinese merely need to encircle it and starve them to the point of surrender.

Indeed Steve, and will be a monumental effort to stave off the Chinese war machine if it comes to that.

I doubt the PLA will be able to surround it given the US commitment (bi-partisan) to come to the aid of Taiwan, not to mention the eastern side is mountainous and not at all favourable to landings or strikes from that side. An invasion of Taiwan is no easy feat though Steve. It would be bigger than Normandy in scale, and Taiwan does already have the an understanding of defensive requirements.

I think this is going to come down to strategic interest wholly driven by Taiwan's unique semiconductor manufacturing capability along with the second chain of islands doctrine/consideration that US military analysts must consider.

Also, if China takes Taiwan, it will be a massive shift in tech capability. It would offer China a "fast track" to technological dominance. Of course, the US - even if Taiwan was lost, would probably not stand idly by - but would likely destroy the Taiwanese semiconductor plants. I cannot imagine any scenario where the US simply resigns itself to the loss of that advantage.

This of course all hinges on the assumption the US will actually come to Taiwan's defence. If they are distracted by theatres elsewhere, or by a President/Congress who don't have fucks to give - that's a different scenario.

At the end of the day Steve, I trust you are on the side of the US - for all her faults and missteps. The alternative is a very dark future for all.

1 hour ago, SteveAJones said:

Ukraine is not a country so much as it is an international slush fund for globalists.

That may be true on a certain level, but is still disappointing to see this is your overall view. Ukraine wants to determine it's own future and wishes to step well away from the "Russian dream" of a reconstituted Soviet empire. I would think that is reasonable no matter how corrupt or fucked up the Ukrainian democracy has been until now. They at least have that right. Right???

[hummingbird69]

I find it laughable how this admin is ready to spend 40 billion to secure the border for another country but not a dollar for our border and plenty of baby formula for the illegals.

Edited May 13, 2022 by hummingbird69

[cryingbluerain]

10 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

It's an arguable point. Ukraine is not a country so much as it is an international slush fund for globalists. 10% to the Big Guy.

Yep, as usual follow the money.

Biden Wanted $33B More For Ukraine. Congress Quickly Raised it to $40B. Who Benefits? (substack.com)

[JohnOsbourne]

15 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

It's an arguable point. Ukraine is not a country so much as it is an international slush fund for globalists. 10% to the Big Guy.

Exactly.  It's not even historically any kind of nation, mainly Poland in the west and Russia in the east.  Hence the usual reference of "the" Ukraine, i.e. "the borderland".  

[ScarletMacaw]

2 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Exactly.  It's not even historically any kind of nation, mainly Poland in the west and Russia in the east.  Hence the usual reference of "the" Ukraine, i.e. "the borderland".  

"Historically" the US is a colony of Great Britain. LOL! We even speak the same language. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by ScarletMacaw
better grammar

[ScarletMacaw]

7 hours ago, cryingbluerain said:

Yep, as usual follow the money.

Biden Wanted $33B More For Ukraine. Congress Quickly Raised it to $40B. Who Benefits? (substack.com)

Glenn Greenwald is a Russian stooge, possibly an agent. 

[JohnOsbourne]

34 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

Glenn Greenwald is a Russian stooge, possibly an agent. 

The red-baiting is just pathetic.  Glenn Greenwald is pretty much the polar opposite of the right-wingers who are said to be Putin lackeys:  he's Jewish, gay, and a left-winger.  He's also one of the few honest journalists out there (which is why he got fired from the newspaper he helped found).  

Don't you have a letter to write to your senator about Saudi Arabia's war against Yemen?  

Edited May 14, 2022 by JohnOsbourne

[JohnOsbourne]

28 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

"Historically" the US is a colony of Great Britain. LOL! We even speak the same language. 

Even by your standards this is dumb.  America has obviously established its own culture, institutions, and history quite distinct from Britain and the rest of the English-speaking world.  Much like Poland has established its own culture, religion, etc. separate from the rest of the Slavic world.  Ukraine, not so much.  Which might explain why they have to resort to men like Bandera (whom even the Germans thought was a psychopath) as their national hero.

[rm2551]

5 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Ukraine, not so much.

But Ukraine wishes to be - or become something. Russia wants to stop that.

Should they be allowed?

[SteveAJones]

15 hours ago, hummingbird69 said:

I find it laughable how this admin is ready to spend 40 billion to secure the border for another country but not a dollar for our border.

That 40 billion will never be used to secure the Ukraine border. 10% will go to The Big Guy, another 10% to that guy, 5% to... Government sanctioned money laundering.

[SteveAJones]

36 minutes ago, rm2551 said:

But Ukraine wishes to be - or become something. Russia wants to stop that.

Should they be allowed?

That something is a member of NATO...so no.

[SteveAJones]

6 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

"Historically" the US is a colony of Great Britain. LOL! We even speak the same language. 

The big difference is there was a war for independence that was won.

[rm2551]

3 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

That something is a member of NATO...so no.

"Something" means self determination. No?

[JohnOsbourne]

20 minutes ago, rm2551 said:

"Something" means self determination. No?

First of all, the issue has nothing to do with what Ukraine "wants" or even "deserves", it's what the US is obligated to do.  There is no US national interest that depends on who controls Ukraine (I have yet to hear of one, anyway), so the answer to the correctly framed question (should the US do anything here) is a firm NO.

Second of all, there will be no self-determination for Ukraine, any more than there is for Germany or Japan or Poland or any other US satellite.  Ukraine will either be a US satellite, or Russian satellite.  It has no other options.  Being a US satellite means toeing the US line on all the things the US cares about, which means enforcing political correctness and liberal dictates domestically (like the western European countries have to, and like the eastern European countries are being increasingly pressured to).  It also means being cannon fodder for US-sanctioned military adventures, as well as continuing to be giant black hole for "foreign aid" (aka money laundering).  As far as I can tell, being a Russian satellite means no more than not hosting NATO troops or pursuing an anti-Russian foreign policy.  (And acknowledging the separation of ethnically Russian regions who don't want to be ruled by Kiev anyway.  What about what these people "want", eh?)  There is no reason to think the Russians would interfere in Ukrainian domestic politics like the US interferes in the affairs of its "allies".

Put bluntly, in the real world, everyone is someone's bitch.  It's just a question of whether the entity to which you're a bitch is reasonable or not.  Trying to become America's bitch has worked out very, very badly for Ukraine.  It is hard to see how they'd be worse off as Russia's bitch.

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by JohnOsbourne

[JohnOsbourne]

Money well-spent:

Where is the $56 billion 'to Ukraine' actually going? (substack.com)

[rm2551]

So first of all, no and no.

Maybe.

Cheers.