War in Ukraine

[rm2551]

On 4/24/2022 at 11:23 AM, JohnOsbourne said:

Any country can petition to join NATO, although the original reason for NATO's existence - the real threat of Soviet-led communism to western Europe - has long since passed.

Apparently not. Putin is trying to restore the old Soviet system and take back Eastern Europe to post WW2 borders. I'd say NATO is as relevant now as it was then given Russia - which essentially means the will of Putin, is entirely against self determination for these Eastern European countries and entirely against western democracy. Not just different to it, but entirely against it. This is also what the interest is for the west. To stand by would be to abdicate responsibility for the international rules based order that was agreed on after WW2. The US leads. Like it or not, and I hope they continue to lead given what the alternative is. As toothless, far from perfect, hypocritical and useless as the UN is, it is also necessary. Or - "might is right" and endless war will be pretty much the human experience which would no question end in nuclear destruction.

There is plenty of hypocrisy with other horrors that are not covered like this, no question. Yemen is equal a nightmare for that population as Ukraine. That does not mean the actions taken and the unity shown by the west against Putins aggression is not valid. It's long overdue.

[rm2551]

21 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Russia taking full control of the Donbas region will give Putin a territorial and ideological accomplishment so significant he could declare victory and halt the war. Inevitably, Russia would annex it just as they annexed Crimea. On the other hand, if Putin decides to continue the war, Ukraine will be waging it without what is its industrial heartland.

No chance. Regroup, make peace deals that mean nothing, bide time, then strike again, probably when China kicks off against Taiwan so the odds of a focussed counter by the US is near nil. Putin wants the old Soviet restored. He cannot accept Ukraine is an actual "thing".

21 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Joe Rogan & Vladimir Putin. Rogan is a superb interviewer who does not accept his guest's answers at face value, he deep dives into them instead. Watching Putin respond to Rogan's questioning would be like matching two masters at chess playing chess.

I actually thought about this a few weeks ago. I think that ship has now sailed, but yeah, that would have been an absolute cracker. 

[rm2551]

16 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

The hilarity continues:

Scott Morrison says Chinese military base in Solomon Islands would be 'red line' for Australia, US - ABC News

Yes, this is hilarious. We are still massively naïve (I'd say just shit) at strategic vision and self interest given who/where we are, our size and circumstance. It's like waking up at 11.30am thinking "Fuck! I have that thing this morning at 7.30!!!"

It's no different than when "Dr no!" (Tony Abbott) said he would "Shirt front" Putin over the MH17 disaster. Just a bad meme at best.

[SteveAJones]

11 hours ago, Plant77 said:

I do know that a majority of the country is liberal

Geographically it certainly is not. 

[ScarletMacaw]

21 hours ago, 3hrsoflunacy said:

Especially here in California. We have a do as I say, not as I do governor who seems more intent to give children rights over their parents, and illegal aliens rights over citizens.

I don't particularly care for Newsom, but as I often say to people, "sure, he's a jackass. But he's the best jackass we've got." There seems to be a shortage of good politicians in California. 

12 hours ago, cryingbluerain said:

Things that make you go wtf?..

Does the Biden administration secretly want Putin to win? The former chess grand champion and Russian dissident Garry Kasparov has suggested that Putin is "the devil you know." The US seems naively to have considered Russia an ally to negotiate a new "nuclear deal" with Iran and as a partner for "climate change". For Russia, climate change concerns in the US means Russia can sell more oil to a country that has shut down its own gargantuan energy supply. So far, as Russia and Iran plan how to evade US sanctions on Russia and enrich themselves, America's interests appear the last concern of Russia's negotiators in the Iran nuclear talks.

There seems to be a current Washington fantasy about Russia: that Putin and Russian officials are people "you can do business with." The business has, in fact, been done: according to the New York Post, a "[US Senate] report says, Hunter Biden profited from a 'financial relationship' that he and associate Devon Archer had with Russia's richest woman, Elena Baturina, former wife of the late Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov."

The Biden administration appears to have gambled that if they were nice to Russia, Russia would be nice to them. They began their term by giving Putin the two things he wanted most. They extended the New START Treaty so that Russia could continue making tactical nuclear weapons, and they gave Putin the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to ensure that he would be able to supply Europe and Germany with natural gas in winter (while bypassing Ukraine) -- or shut the gas off. The US also allowed Russia's negotiators in the talks to revive the 2015 JCPOA "nuclear deal" with Iran in Vienna, Austria – where the US was not allowed in the same room with Iranians -- to have Russia's lead negotiator, Mikhail Ulyanov, represent the US. Not surprisingly, Ulyanov emerged from the talks saying that "Iran got much more than it expected."

Before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, US President Joe Biden hinted that if Putin were to carry out just a "minor incursion," that it might be acceptable. When the Biden administration then said it would not use its military, Putin saw it as a "green light". The administration is apparently under the illusion that, down the road, Russia will actually be helping the US with "climate change" and is presently advocating for US interests in negotiating a new "nuclear deal" with Iran. Russia is not; Russia is helping Russia -- and Iran.

Are We Letting Putin Win? :: Gatestone Institute

 

I have been puzzled by Biden's behavior in this catastrophe. He seemed at first to be on the ball in terms of warning that Putin was going to invade, then very slow at getting Ukraine the weapons they need. Maybe the strategy is to prolong the war, which Zelensky seemed to hint at, without mentioning the US by name. Ultimately though I think Biden is a classic US politician, who is ignorant about the world despite 8 years as Vice President, because he's still in his small town mentality where politics is backroom deals, backslapping, getting bills passed through compromise, being friends with the opposing party while denouncing them in public. US Presidents, as well as UK and European leaders, constantly misunderstand dictators and tyrants. They don't seem to grasp that these people are not playing by the rules of politics as played in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I have a funny story I could share about Members of Congress that my father encountered when he worked for the CIA. 

[Bong-Man]

I don't have a problem with Americans who claim the Ukranian War is none of our business.  It really isn't.  What I find disturbing is the American apologists who seem hell-bent on supporting Putin and his regime no matter how this plays out.  The same people who thought this would be over in a week are now going to claim massive victory because he's had to majorly re-group.  These same people have never once paid their own government a compliment by acknowledging the outstanding (yes, outstanding) intelligence the U.S. government has provided.  Not once will you hear them admit that Putin's plan was a gross miscalculation of scanning the environment that he claims as his own. Not one of them will admit that the Russian military has been strategically exposed during this mess.   No, instead they choose to paint Putin as holding the moral high ground, tell you The Ukraine was never really a sovereign country by their own choice (my gosh...they speak multiple languages!  There's corruption! Neo-Nazis!), and dream of Dickhead Joe Rogan actually giving the guy an interview.  WTF?? 

I smell it.  Can you?  The desire for homogenous societies.  The love and fascination for a dictator who can cancel any dissent.  The nod to fascism if it brings change their way. The hatred at any cost towards a President who has so far made every tough decision correctly as far U.S. involvement.  Hallelujah, Brothers & Sisters, I can smell it!  Shake that rosary! Tease that snake!  Yes, 2017 'Proud Boys' are passe.  The American Christian Right is so frustrated they've actually adopted Putin!!      

[Walter]

2 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

I don't have a problem with Americans who claim the Ukranian War is none of our business.  It really isn't.  What I find disturbing is the American apologists who seem hell-bent on supporting Putin and his regime no matter how this plays out.  The same people who thought this would be over in a week are now going to claim massive victory because he's had to majorly re-group.  These same people have never once paid their own government a compliment by acknowledging the outstanding (yes, outstanding) intelligence the U.S. government has provided.  Not once will you hear them admit that Putin's plan was a gross miscalculation of scanning the environment that he claims as his own. Not one of them will admit that the Russian military has been strategically exposed during this mess.   No, instead they choose to paint Putin as holding the moral high ground, tell you The Ukraine was never really a sovereign country by their own choice (my gosh...they speak multiple languages!  There's corruption! Neo-Nazis!), and dream of Dickhead Joe Rogan actually giving the guy an interview.  WTF?? 

I smell it.  Can you?  The desire for homogenous societies.  The love and fascination for a dictator who can cancel any dissent.  The nod to fascism if it brings change their way. The hatred at any cost towards a President who has so far made every tough decision correctly as far U.S. involvement.  Hallelujah, Brothers & Sisters, I can smell it!  Shake that rosary! Tease that snake!  Yes, 2017 'Proud Boys' are passe.  The American Christian Right is so frustrated they've actually adopted Putin!!      

Absolutely smell it. It disgusts me and has for years on this board and in this country. 
Ukraine will win. At what cost, I have no idea.

[JohnOsbourne]

20 hours ago, Reggie29 said:

If China does build bases in the Solomon Islands (by stealth?), it will become a big problem for both Australia and the USA. While the Solomon Islands don't border the US mainland, they are not that far from American Samoa and Hawaii and would be potential targets along with Australia and other smaller Pacific nations.

Allies protect each others interests and provide assistance in many things, like fighting fires, humanitarian aid after natural disasters, supplying munitions and equipment to Ukraine and when needed, military involvement. We don't need the USA to defend us per se, just to stand together as we have for the last century or so. Same as the UK.

Europe (NATO), is no more important than Oceania or anywhere else in the world where there are Australian and American interests, for that matter .

We have a federal election next month so it'll be interesting moving forward depending on which party wins government.

As per usual the politicians dropped the ball and Covid proved to be a distraction for the Chinese to conduct negotiations with the Solomon Islands, for economic purposes(?).

OK.  Then you would grant that Russia's own "red line" re. Ukraine is not so unreasonable.  Correct?

[JohnOsbourne]

16 hours ago, rm2551 said:

Apparently not. Putin is trying to restore the old Soviet system and take back Eastern Europe to post WW2 borders. I'd say NATO is as relevant now as it was then given Russia - which essentially means the will of Putin, is entirely against self determination for these Eastern European countries and entirely against western democracy. Not just different to it, but entirely against it. This is also what the interest is for the west. To stand by would be to abdicate responsibility for the international rules based order that was agreed on after WW2. The US leads. Like it or not, and I hope they continue to lead given what the alternative is. As toothless, far from perfect, hypocritical and useless as the UN is, it is also necessary. Or - "might is right" and endless war will be pretty much the human experience which would no question end in nuclear destruction.

There is plenty of hypocrisy with other horrors that are not covered like this, no question. Yemen is equal a nightmare for that population as Ukraine. That does not mean the actions taken and the unity shown by the west against Putins aggression is not valid. It's long overdue.

I'm sorry but this is just paranoia.  I doubt even the Poles believe he wants to do this kind of thing.  I thought it was mainly an American characteristic to have a cartoonish, Manichean view of history and foreign affairs (good guys vs bad guys, nothing in between).  Evidently not.  At any rate I have yet to see an explanation of why it's America's obligation to defend Eastern Europe (or any part of Europe).  Why don't you push for Australia to lead?

The issue re. Yemen is not simply the hypocrisy of it, which is bad enough.  The issue is the total moral panic and hysteria around Ukraine, but not these other foreign policy horrors that the US was either directly or indirectly responsible for.  All the times in recent memory that the US government and media have lied, but this one time, they're telling the absolute truth?  Yeah, right. 

Moral panic is always a sign of either desperation or deception, and if you can't see the problem with that, then I'd say you're in worse shape than those hostages Azov is still holding.

[JohnOsbourne]

[ScarletMacaw]

rm2551 is absolutely correct; good job summing things up. 

There's currently a truce in Yemen. If you want to help in that area, you could donate to the UN World Food Programme, one of the UN's programs that does something effective. 

I was part of a discussion today with the head of the Ukrainian Psychological Association and another psychologist in Ukraine, sponsored by one of the APA branches here in the U.S. They are still doing their jobs. They asked for resources for specialized work with sexual assault victims, pregnant women and families with children with disabilities. Pregnant women have lost healthcare resources and so have the children with disabilities. If you are a mental health professional and would like more information from the talk, send me a message. 

Speaking of the latter, a friend of a good friend of mine is doing an independent initiative to help families with children with disabilities in Ukraine. If you would like to help her, I will provide her contact information. Send me a message. There is no overhead because she is not paid a salary and is doing this in her spare time as a volunteer. She speaks Russian and I think Ukrainian. She is helping them with transportation and housing. 

[ScarletMacaw]

"John Osbourne" is not a member of the Christian right-wing in the U.S. He is a Russian troll. 

[JohnOsbourne]

24 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

rm2551 is absolutely correct; good job summing things up. 

There's currently a truce in Yemen. If you want to help in that area, you could donate to the UN World Food Programme, one of the UN's programs that does something effective. 

I was part of a discussion today with the head of the Ukrainian Psychological Association and another psychologist in Ukraine, sponsored by one of the APA branches here in the U.S. They are still doing their jobs. They asked for resources for specialized work with sexual assault victims, pregnant women and families with children with disabilities. Pregnant women have lost healthcare resources and so have the children with disabilities. If you are a mental health professional and would like more information from the talk, send me a message. 

Speaking of the latter, a friend of a good friend of mine is doing an independent initiative to help families with children with disabilities in Ukraine. If you would like to help her, I will provide her contact information. Send me a message. There is no overhead because she is not paid a salary and is doing this in her spare time as a volunteer. She speaks Russian and I think Ukrainian. She is helping them with transportation and housing. 

What, no calls to assassinate Mohammed bin Salman?  Or an embargo on Saudi oil?  You're slacking off now.

[JohnOsbourne]

18 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

"John Osbourne" is not a member of the Christian right-wing in the U.S. He is a Russian troll. 

Love the red-baiting.  You people have become a caricature of the very things you once claimed to oppose.  

[JohnOsbourne]

America Needs to Reckon With the Death Toll of Post-9/11 Wars (theintercept.com)

Yay team!  Now let's have a shit-fit over Ukraine.  

[rm2551]

6 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

I'm sorry but this is just paranoia.  I doubt even the Poles believe he wants to do this kind of thing.  I thought it was mainly an American characteristic to have a cartoonish, Manichean view of history and foreign affairs (good guys vs bad guys, nothing in between).  Evidently not.  At any rate I have yet to see an explanation of why it's America's obligation to defend Eastern Europe (or any part of Europe).  Why don't you push for Australia to lead?

The issue re. Yemen is not simply the hypocrisy of it, which is bad enough.  The issue is the total moral panic and hysteria around Ukraine, but not these other foreign policy horrors that the US was either directly or indirectly responsible for.  All the times in recent memory that the US government and media have lied, but this one time, they're telling the absolute truth?  Yeah, right. 

Moral panic is always a sign of either desperation or deception, and if you can't see the problem with that, then I'd say you're in worse shape than those hostages Azov is still holding.

Paranoia? Nah mate, just my view based on what I watch and read from various sources, including the analysis on what Putin himself wrote about Ukraine not actually being a legitimate separate entity from Russia. Oh he wants it all baby, make no mistake.

The explanation as to why the US should give a fuck about eastern Europe is the same as it was in WW2 - that is, if you don't fight it there, eventually it will be on your doorstep. Russia and China are rising and along with some other cunty nations and one day soon (at least in my kids lifetime) may be able to form an axis that rivals the west. That is good for no one who has the basic belief that societies are best to be based on individual liberties, free markets, and the rule of law. As for pushing AUS to lead, pfffft, we are barely in our teenage years in terms of a countries maturity. We struggle to cope as a "middle power" which we are - or are becoming.

Russia supports - with the use of great force, those like him (see Belarus and the other former soviet countries where loyal strongmen are in charge despite the will of those countries peoples). The US should support similar free thinking democracies simply because from a humane view it is the right thing to do. Like you don't see a reason for the US to jump in, I don't see how it can be justified they don't.

I 100% understand the distain for how Ukraine is elevated while so many other fucked up wars/internal strife barely gets a mention. I reckon one of the biggest things people will talk about in 100 years from now looking back at how we rolled will rightly point to the fact "the west" didn't give a fuck about any actions by any countries - with very few exceptions (like this one) and just kind of turned a blind eye in the interests of trade. The almighty $$$. MBS chops up a journalist, moral outrage fades and no real action is taken. Horrors so extreme they border on unbelievable in a few different African nations by groups or sects, meh... who cares? Of course the insanity of the "culture wars" which threatens to collapse cohesive societies would also likely be a major topic along with a few others.

[Reggie29]

7 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

OK.  Then you would grant that Russia's own "red line" re. Ukraine is not so unreasonable.  Correct?

Incorrect. Russia is totally wrong in invading Ukraine and incidents of war crimes like the bombing of maternity hospital are very unreasonable. The Soviet Union broke up decades ago but Putin is hell bent on restoring it at any cost. 

China is supporting Russia and that is a concern. 

[Strider]

The Three Stooges had it right.

[Strider]

21 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

I don't have a problem with Americans who claim the Ukranian War is none of our business.  It really isn't.  What I find disturbing is the American apologists who seem hell-bent on supporting Putin and his regime no matter how this plays out.  The same people who thought this would be over in a week are now going to claim massive victory because he's had to majorly re-group.  These same people have never once paid their own government a compliment by acknowledging the outstanding (yes, outstanding) intelligence the U.S. government has provided.  Not once will you hear them admit that Putin's plan was a gross miscalculation of scanning the environment that he claims as his own. Not one of them will admit that the Russian military has been strategically exposed during this mess.   No, instead they choose to paint Putin as holding the moral high ground, tell you The Ukraine was never really a sovereign country by their own choice (my gosh...they speak multiple languages!  There's corruption! Neo-Nazis!), and dream of Dickhead Joe Rogan actually giving the guy an interview.  WTF?? 

I smell it.  Can you?  The desire for homogenous societies.  The love and fascination for a dictator who can cancel any dissent.  The nod to fascism if it brings change their way. The hatred at any cost towards a President who has so far made every tough decision correctly as far U.S. involvement.  Hallelujah, Brothers & Sisters, I can smell it!  Shake that rosary! Tease that snake!  Yes, 2017 'Proud Boys' are passe.  The American Christian Right is so frustrated they've actually adopted Putin!!      

Amen. And they can't wait to run Putin's tea-bagging buddy again for the 2024 election.

[ScarletMacaw]

29 minutes ago, Strider said:

Amen. And they can't wait to run Putin's tea-bagging buddy again for the 2024 election.

I'm just not certain that this is true. Do you have evidence that Christian right-wing groups support Putin? Please supply a link or references of some type. 

[Bong-Man]

40 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

I'm just not certain that this is true. Do you have evidence that Christian right-wing groups support Putin? Please supply a link or references of some type. 

Russia-Ukraine crisis complicates American white evangelicals' love for Putin (msnbc.com)

[SteveAJones]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:09 AM, Walter said:

Absolutely smell it. It disgusts me and has for years on this board and in this country. 
Ukraine will win. At what cost, I have no idea.

Ukraine will win?! I'm laughing so hard Zelensky's sides hurt.

[SteveAJones]

3 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

Russia-Ukraine crisis complicates American white evangelicals' love for Putin (msnbc.com)

Oh, please. Now you're trying too hard. MSNBC? No bias there.

 

[ScarletMacaw]

4 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

Russia-Ukraine crisis complicates American white evangelicals' love for Putin (msnbc.com)

It's pretty shocking, although, I'm not sure how representative those individuals are. 

[JohnOsbourne]

15 hours ago, Reggie29 said:

Incorrect. Russia is totally wrong in invading Ukraine and incidents of war crimes like the bombing of maternity hospital are very unreasonable. The Soviet Union broke up decades ago but Putin is hell bent on restoring it at any cost. 

China is supporting Russia and that is a concern. 

OK, no surprise, but you really are full of shit.  You're literally incapable of understanding the logic of an argument you yourself put forth.  Beyond pathetic.  

Edited April 26, 2022 by JohnOsbourne