FREE TIBET ! !

[Gainsbarre]

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Now for Gainesbarre...you want me to explain Communism to you...despite the fact I could copy/paste it? I'd feel like I was cheating

I'll give you the very broad generalization of it I guess?

Communism is basically derived from Karl Marx and the Marxism that derived from his thinking. It's stateless, it's classless, everybody and their brother is equal to another in every kind of social aspect. The government controls the economy, and wealth is redispersed to the masses.

Have I hit it, or am I flat-out wrong?

Sorry poppet, but you're wrong. But it's okay, I won't hold it against you

When the Government controls the economy, that's actually not Communism, but Socialism, it's a period in Communist theory referred to as the Dictatorship of the Proleteriat.

In Marx's theory, economic society is meant to pass through certain stages before reaching Communism. Generally speaking it goes from Feudalism, to Capitalism, to Socialism then to Communism.

Socialism is the period where the Government assumes the control of the means of production. Although by saying Government, in marxist theory, the Goverment is the Communist party who are technically the representatives, or the vanguard, of the working people, or the proletariat.

Now Socialism, or Dictatorship of the Proleteriat is supposed to be the period where society makes a transition to Communism, which as you said, was stateless and classless. The working class becomes the ruling class and they begin a process of stripping back control of the economic society from the Bourgeoise (the middle and wealthy classes) and also dismantling the class structure in society.

When this has been achieved, then society moves on to Communism.

Now a Communist state has no government control except for a small frame-work government to handle internatrional affairs. The economic means of productions are put in the hands of workers, who form themselves into communes and collectives. These Communes and Collectives of workers are the things that actually run everything in the economic society. All members of the commune or collective vote for their management team, if you like, and all management teams are responsible and answerable to the members of the collective who voted them in.

Monetary units are abolished, and all economic transactions are done in bater and exchange. Everything is paid for in goods and services.

Now, in the 20th century, not one so-called Communist Country actually made it to Communism. They all stopped at Socialism. So the world has never actually seen a Communist society in action. So there's no actual proof of whether it works or not.

But Socialism proved too much Government control and those who were in control of the party were unable to relinquish their power.

[greenman]

Now, in the 20th century, not one so-called Communist Country actually made it to Communism. They all stopped at Socialism. So the world has never actually seen a Communist society in action. So there's no actual proof of whether it works or not.

But Socialism proved too much Government control and those who were in control of the party were unable to relinquish their power.

The fact that so many states atempted communisum and failed to live up to its ideals does I'd say tell you alot about how effective it is.

[dragster]

Where in the hell did I say you were left-wing?

Go back and prove me wrong if you want. Oh and it's "laugh".

Oh and by the way bud, theres as much scum on the left-side of the aisle

________________________________________________________________________________

____

Now for Gainesbarre...you want me to explain Communism to you...despite the fact I could copy/paste it? I'd feel like I was cheating

I'll give you the very broad generalization of it I guess?

Communism is basically derived from Karl Marx and the Marxism that derived from his thinking. It's stateless, it's classless, everybody and their brother is equal to another in every kind of social aspect. The government controls the economy, and wealth is redispersed to the masses.

Have I hit it, or am I flat-out wrong?

Right on, because I don't wanna be tagged with anything that can kill my spirit and that is POLITICS . I mean, when will we ever learn??! . Haven't we all had enuff of the "political class" pulling our proverbial legs? Can't people see beyond their "political" noses?!

Ponder people ponder!

[dragster]

Oh and by the way bud, theres as much scum on the left-side of the aisle

I can't but agree with you here.

[Hermit]

[wanna be drummer]

Sorry poppet, but you're wrong. But it's okay, I won't hold it against you

When the Government controls the economy, that's actually not Communism, but Socialism, it's a period in Communist theory referred to as the Dictatorship of the Proleteriat.

In Marx's theory, economic society is meant to pass through certain stages before reaching Communism. Generally speaking it goes from Feudalism, to Capitalism, to Socialism then to Communism.

Socialism is the period where the Government assumes the control of the means of production. Although by saying Government, in marxist theory, the Goverment is the Communist party who are technically the representatives, or the vanguard, of the working people, or the proletariat.

Now Socialism, or Dictatorship of the Proleteriat is supposed to be the period where society makes a transition to Communism, which as you said, was stateless and classless. The working class becomes the ruling class and they begin a process of stripping back control of the economic society from the Bourgeoise (the middle and wealthy classes) and also dismantling the class structure in society.

When this has been achieved, then society moves on to Communism.

Now a Communist state has no government control except for a small frame-work government to handle internatrional affairs. The economic means of productions are put in the hands of workers, who form themselves into communes and collectives. These Communes and Collectives of workers are the things that actually run everything in the economic society. All members of the commune or collective vote for their management team, if you like, and all management teams are responsible and answerable to the members of the collective who voted them in.

Monetary units are abolished, and all economic transactions are done in bater and exchange. Everything is paid for in goods and services.

Now, in the 20th century, not one so-called Communist Country actually made it to Communism. They all stopped at Socialism. So the world has never actually seen a Communist society in action. So there's no actual proof of whether it works or not.

But Socialism proved too much Government control and those who were in control of the party were unable to relinquish their power.

I'm pretty sure you won't believe me, but I have to at least say it. I do know that Communism is not actually supposed to control the economy once it reaches its pinnacle point. By the time the people are ready for true communism, they've already learned to share their money, wealth, land, etc. In this way, the government no longer needs to handle the redistrubition of wealth, as the people have already had the oppurtunity to move on and do it themselves.

But of course, thats "true Communism" I suppose, not the Maosist/Stalinist Communism we've been seeing throughout the 20th Century.

edited for some minor grammatical errors

[Pb Derigable]

China has stoped all you tube videos from bieng watched in china that has to deal with Free Tibet. Even though there is a million ways around it. China may not be communist, but the ideas still live.

[Gainsbarre]

The fact that so many states atempted communisum and failed to live up to its ideals does I'd say tell you alot about how effective it is.

No, that's wrong. Communism itself didn't fail. It was never achieved...

Not because of a flaw in the theory of Communism, because simply because of Human Psychology.

When Marx and Engels devised Communism, Europe was divided into 3 classes: the Royal or Noble Class, The Middle class or Bourgeoisie (the professionals and factory/business owners) and the working class.

At that time, the working class were the largest section of the population. And their poverty was exacerbated by the demands and the wealth of the Middle Class. The theory of Communism was developed in response to the working class living in retched poverty with no rights. It was developed out of an idea that everybody should be equal, that a minority of society shouldn't hold all the wealth and power.

The only trouble is, people don't want to be equal...

That's why Communism is unappealing, people want money and materialism, and to be special, and famous and all that jazz.

We live in a time when Materialism and Consumerism is at its peak. That's why kids won't move out of home anymore. Lesser restrictions from their parents and greater access to money and material goods keep kids at home. Freedom is a financial burden these days.

We live in an age when people have more opportunities to be a Celebrity, through Reality TV, the internet, myspace, whatever. This encourages our desire to be unequal.

This is the period when Individuality is now very fashionable. Individual rights are paramount, the age of self-help books help you to discover what YOU feel and what YOU want and how to get it.

Recently in the news was the story of a 16 year old boy who had a party at his house while his parents were on holidays. He advertised the party online and over 500 people showed up. Eventually the Police riot squad was called in with dogs and helicopters to control the party. Thousands of dollars in damage was done to surrounding houses. Afterwards, the boy who held the party was giving daily press conferences to the media outside his house, where he expressed absolutely no remorse for his actions, and was unconcerned what his parents would think or how his neighbours felt. With his fashionable sunglasses, hat and open hoodie (with no shirt) he also became a suburban fashion icon, and overnight became a cult hero. His exploits were followed in the news for almost 2 weeks. Hundreds of Thousands of people flocked to his Myspace, he was posing for photographs with girls as he went down the street, people asked him for autographs. He quickly wound up with a Manager and a media advisor, plus a fashion consultant and also landed a job promoting parties that could earn him $50,000 a party... He also got a job on a radio station as a guest commentator, although he walked out on the job live on air after the other DJ's asked him to take off his trademark sunglasses.

That, my friend, is the age we live in today.

[dragster]

China has stoped all you tube videos from bieng watched in china that has to deal with Free Tibet. Even though there is a million ways around it. China may not be communist, but the ideas still live.

"MEET THE NEW BOSS......SAME AS THE OLD BOSS!"

[yahyoubetcha]

The only trouble is, people don't want to be equal...

That's why Communism is unappealing, people want money and materialism, and to be special, and famous and all that jazz.

Recently in the news was the story of a 16 year old boy who had a party at his house while his parents were on holidays.

[Gainsbarre]

The only trouble is, people don't want to be equal...

That's why Communism is unappealing, people want money and materialism, and to be special, and famous and all that jazz.

Recently in the news was the story of a 16 year old boy who had a party at his house while his parents were on holidays.

Were his parents royalty, middle class or working class? Was that information made available?

I think communism is unappealing because it doesn't allow one to realise their potential, whatever it may be. It may have nothing to do with money, materialisn, or being special or famous.

No his parents were just an average middle class family...

There's no proof that Communism doesn't allow people to realise their potential. Don't make the mistake of tying Communism up with just plain old Dictatorship.

Under Communist theory, anybody can realise any potential, you're just not allowed to receive an unequal financial reward for it.

But it's not practical because people are still too attached to money. That's all it is. Living in a pure Communist society is like living like a Nun or a Monk, one gives up money and materialism and does things for the good of their community.

Nobody wants to do that.

No one wants to spend 7 years studying to become a medical specialist if they're going to get paid the same amount of money as the receptionist. If Comrade Smith feels he's doing more work than Comrade Jones he's going to say "it's not fair, I do more work than him but we get paid the same, I should get paid more". People may not be actively seeking to be unequal, but they'll sure as hell notice it if they feel that everybody is unfairly equal...

When I went to University, and people would ask me what I was studying, and I'd say "Asian Political Studies" people would always ask "Ooh, what sort of job will that get you?" or "How much money will you make after that?" and when I used to reply that it probably wouldn't get me any job or I wouldn't make any money from it, they always said the same thing: "Why would you bother doing it if it's not going to earn you more money?" and I used to reply "well because I want to study it and I go to University to be educated, not because of money" and people would just look at you weird. Then I realised that people only saw the value in education to get you a job or make you money. Not being educated for the sake of being an educated person or just to be a well-rounded informed person, but just for fucking money.

That's why Communism is impractical, it expects too much from us.

Just another point to remember:

When Marx and Engels formulated the Communist manifesto, you must take into account the situation European society was in at the time. Marx and Engels didn't formulate Communist theory because they wanted to be rulers of the world. The formed the theory because they were disgusted at the plight of the working classes who made up the majority of the population, and suffered greatly under the Industrial Revolution.

If you had lived in the 1840's chances are you would've been a poor working class person, who was working in a hideous factory of some sort, working 12-18 hours a day, 6 days a week, for very little pay. If you've read Dickens, then I'm sure you'll appreciate how children were also forced to work this way. Marx and Engels saw that the working class were being abused and exploited by the much smaller class of people who owned the factories and were making massive fortunes. This class of people were called the Middle Class or Bourgeoisie. They weren't the nobility, but they were the wealthy professionals and business people who made fortunes off the Industrial revolution. Marx and Engels also saw the rigid class structure in these countries, and how people born into the working class, because of their class, were denied rights and education, they were also denied the right to vote. This meant it was almost impossible for a working class person to escape their class and move into the bourgeoisie, and even if they did, they would also feel the scorn of the bourgeoisie for not being "truly middle class".

You can see this strict class division in things such as Gilbert & Sullivan's Operetta HMS Pinafore, written in the 1870's. A common sailor falls in love with the Captain's daughter, and even though she loves him, their relationship cannot be because she is in a different social class to him. This is an accurate reflection on what severe restrictions the class system placed on people.

So Marx and Engels saw all this and decided that because the working class were the majority of the population and their position in life was being ruined by the class sytem, that they needed to devise a new system that would make everybody equal. It must also be remembered that back in the 1840's, society was strictly organised, it wasn't free and easy like it is today. So that's why marx and Engels felt they had to devise a new system of organising society.

[wanna be drummer]

You hit the nail on the head Gainesbarre, no one wants to work harder and be rewarded the same as other people. I know I don't, whether that's selfish or self-reliant is not for me to judge

[Gainsbarre]

You hit the nail on the head Gainesbarre, no one wants to work harder and be rewarded the same as other people. I know I don't, whether that's selfish or self-reliant is not for me to judge

No, neither do I. If I put out an album I want the fucking money that goes with it!

But that's my argument, that Communism is impractical to human desires.

[dragster]

The only trouble is, people don't want to be equal...

That's why Communism is unappealing, people want money and materialism, and to be special, and famous and all that jazz.

Recently in the news was the story of a 16 year old boy who had a party at his house while his parents were on holidays.

Were his parents royalty, middle class or working class? Was that information made available?

I think communism is unappealing because it doesn't allow one to realise their potential, whatever it may be. It may have nothing to do with money, materialisn, or being special or famous.

I think you're talking more about LEGIT INDIVIDUALISM here.....and that's NOT political!!

[The Rover]

China orders video Web sites to close

By MIN LEE, AP Entertainment Writer

Fri Mar 21, 5:02 PM ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080321/ap_on_..._internet_video

HONG KONG - China will shut down or punish dozens of video-sharing Web sites for carrying content deemed a threat to national security, pornographic, or violent under rules that tighten Internet controls, a regulator said Friday.

The announcement came as Chinese Web surfers were blocked from seeing foreign sites with video about protests in Tibet. The new order did not mention the anti-government demonstrations or China's resulting crackdown.

One of China's most popular video-sharing sites, Tudou.com, was among those penalized, the State Administration of Radio, Film and Television said. It gave no details of Tudou's violation or penalty. Other major competitors such as Youku.com and 56.com were not cited.

Rules that took effect Jan. 31 ban Chinese sites from distributing online video that involves national secrets, hurts the reputation of China, disrupts social stability or promotes pornography. Web sites are required to delete and report such content.

Communist authorities have also tightened controls on Chinese media ahead of this summer's Beijing Olympics in hopes of stopping content that might tarnish a national prestige event.

In the recent sweep, regulators ordered 25 Web sites to shut down and will punish 32 others following a two-month investigation, the administration said on its Web site. It gave no details of penalties and phone calls to the office were not answered.

The companies knew the penalties were coming, and they do not appear to be connected to efforts to block footage of the protests in Tibet, said Duncan Clark, managing director of BDA China Ltd., a Beijing consulting firm.

A Tudou.com vice president, Dan Brody, said the site received a warning. He declined further comment.

The industry has grown quickly as a source of news in a country where the government owns all newspapers and broadcasters and enforces the ruling Communist Party's censorship guidelines. Some sites say they get 100 million visitors a day, an audience that rivals that of the biggest state television channels.

Chinese regulators see the profit potential for video-sharing and have tried to strike a balance between enforcing censorship and letting fast-growing sites compete for visitors.

"It's niche no longer, so the party takes the view that it's mass media, so it has to be subject to the same controls," Clark said.

The government announced in December that all video-sharing sites had to be state-owned. But it backed off following warnings that would stifle the industry and said any properly licensed company already operating could continue.

Chinese Web surfers have recently been blocked from seeing YouTube after video about the Tibet protests appeared on the popular U.S. site. Foreign Web sites run by news organizations and human rights groups are regularly blocked when they carry sensitive information.

The potential for video-sharing sites to embarrass the government was highlighted in December when a sportscaster grabbed the microphone and accused her husband of adultery at a state TV event to announce Olympics coverage plans.

A video of the Dec. 28 event appeared on dozens of Web sites in China and abroad. Tudou said it was one of the site's most-watched items.

---------------------------------------------------------------

FUCKING COMMUNISTS !

[Gainsbarre]

I think you're talking more about LEGIT INDIVIDUALISM here.....and that's NOT political!!

No it's not political, but it exists, and how can it operate inside a politcal/socio-economic model which requires economic individualism to be eradicated?

[Del Zeppnile]

In addition to boycotting NBC sports and the olympics I have decided to boycott Panda Express take out too.

And not only for their obvious connection to the Red Chinese hoards, but because I don't appreciate getting long black hairs in my beef chow mein.

[Gainsbarre]

In addition to boycotting NBC sports and the olympics I have decided to boycott Panda Express take out too.

And not only for their obvious connection to the Red Chinese hoards, but because I don't appreciate getting long black hairs in my beef chow mein.

Really? So not their re-using of last week's meat?

[yahyoubetcha]

I think you're talking more about LEGIT INDIVIDUALISM here.....and that's NOT political!!

But doesn't it become political when your individualism, or potential, is regulated by the government?

[The Rover]

Death reports as Chinese police open fire on monks and nuns

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle3612661.ece

From Times Online

March 24, 2008

Hundreds of monks, nuns and local Tibetans who tried to march on a local government office in western China to demand the return of the Dalai Lama have been turned back by paramilitary police who opened fire to disperse the crowd.

Local residents of Luhuo said two people – a monk and a farmer – appeared to have been shot dead and about a dozen were wounded in the latest violence to rock Tibetan areas of China.

The demonstration began at about 4pm local time when about 200 nuns from Woge nunnery and a similar number of monks from Jueri monastery marched out of their hillside sanctuaries and walked towards the Luhuo Third District government office in the nearby town. They were swiftly joined by an estimated several hundred farmers and nomads, witnesses said.

Shouting “Long Live the Dalai Lama” and “Tibet belongs to Tibetans”, they approached the district government office. However, paramilitary People’s Armed Police swiftly appeared and ordered the crowd to turn back. Town residents reported that, in the ensuing melee, shots were fired and two people appeared to have died.

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They identified one of those believed to have been killed as a farmer, Congun Dengzhu, and the second as a monk whose name was not known. About a dozen people were reported to have been wounded. Several people who answered the phone in Luhuo late yesterday said there had been two casualties in the town but refused to speak further.

Security was already tight in Luhuo county, as in other Tibetan communities in China. The turmoil erupted with a riot in Lhasa on March 15 in which Chinese officials say 19 people were killed when angry Tibetans rampaged through the Tibetan capital, stabbing and hacking at ethnic Han Chinese and setting fire to Chinese shops and offices.

The latest demonstration, in a remote corner of a province that abuts Tibet and has a mainly Tibetan population, came as the authorities in Lhasa issued their Number Eight list of those most wanted in connection with the violence.

The new list, issued by the Tibetan Autonomous Region Public Security Bureau rather than by Lhasa city authorities, of eight people brought to a total of 53 the number of those now being sought. State-run television has been running grainy photographs of those who are wanted, taken from video grabs and stills shot during the riot on March 15.

The man whose picture appeared as Number 52 on the list has appeared in one of the most famous images from that day of violence in which a group of Tibetans can be seen setting light to a Chinese flag while a young man in Tibetan dress and carrying a machete-type knife stands in the background.

China says it has acted with the utmost restraint in response to the unrest. It said paramilitary had opened fire on protesters in Aba, a nearby district of Sichuan province, last week, wounding four people. Tibetans say several people were killed in the shooting.

A police spokeswoman said five people had been detained in Lhasa in relation to arson during the riot. She said three Tibetan women in their twenties faced arson charges and had confessed. An investigation was still under way in the other two cases. Officials said last week 24 people had been arrested and more than 150 had given themselves up.

The Dalai Lama’s government-in-exile in India said today that the death toll in the clashes had risen to 130, but they gave no breakdown or details of the casualties. Foreign journalists have been barred from approaching any Tibetan areas where unrest has been reported, and the numbers are extremely difficult to verify.

Security is tight across Tibetan areas of China. Civil servants in many districts have been ordered to report to their offices every day – including Saturdays and Sundays – and to take part in “patriotic education”.

[The Rover]

China reproaches foreign media over Tibet coverage

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/24/asia/beijing.php

China has sharply criticized foreign reporters here over their coverage of the riots in Tibet, accusing them of biased reporting and preventing them from traveling to Tibet or neighboring provinces to report on the unrest.

The government has also increased its propaganda campaign aimed at convincing the Chinese public that the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan leader, instigated the violence in Tibet on March 14 and that China was a victim of separatist terrorist activity.

The campaign is the clearest sign of China's concerns that the Tibet unrest, as well as anti-government protests over Darfur, could disrupt the Olympic Games this summer.

In a sign of the tension with the media, three members of the Athens chapter of Reporters Without Borders, a media-rights group based in Paris, disrupted the Olympic flame-lighting ceremony in Greece on Monday. The incident occurred as Liu Qi, president of the Beijing Organizing Committee, was addressing thousands of spectators, dignitaries and Olympics officials. (Page 4)

The government appears to be blocking foreign Web sites inside China and censoring foreign television broadcasts here about the situation in Tibet. Youtube.com was blocked after the riots began and CNN and BBC broadcasts regularly go black after any mention of Tibet. The New York Times Web site also appeared to have been blocked or censored in recent days.

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Over the weekend, the government allowed Chinese Web sites, which are usually heavily censored for political content, to post sharp critiques of foreign media reports about Tibet and to show graphic, violent images of Tibetans looting and attacking ethnic Han Chinese in Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, on March 14.

The images have fueled outrage in China and led to a flurry of Web postings vehemently critical of Tibetans.

State-controlled news media have been allowed to report from Tibet and neighboring areas where violent protests occurred.

But foreign journalists have been denied access to Tibet and blocked from reaching neighboring regions with large Tibetan populations. Many foreign reporters who managed to get into Tibet after the riots were forced to leave.

Foreign journalists in China said those actions violated the government's pledge to give them greater press freedoms and access to the country in the months leading up to the Olympic Games.

"At a time when China is promising to become more open with the world, this is a big disappointment," said Jocelyn Ford, a freelance journalist in Beijing and chairwoman of the media freedoms committee of the Foreign Correspondents Club there.

To appease foreign reporters, Beijing told several journalists Monday that a group of about 12 journalists would be able to travel to Lhasa for a special, government-guided tour of the city later this week. Whether they will be allowed to interview people independently was unclear.

[Hermit]

.

I guess this is the most context-approrpiate thread to let people know that for

the next few weeks I'll be away from the boards because.. I'm going to India!

I depart on Thursday morning, March 27th, and arrive in New Delhi on Friday night. Upon arriving, I'll go to *Majnu Ka Tilla* (*click* *click*), the Tibetan refugee colony just north of Dehli, where I'll spend a couple of days before taking the 12-hour drive to the Himachal Pradesh region of northern India where I'll spend the next 10 days receiving Mahamudra meditation teaching/training from my beloved guru *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5yPh8trI9k* at *Sherab Ling monastery* (*click* *click* *click*) in the foothills of the Himalaya mountains.

From Sherab Ling monastery I'll be going to *Gyuto Tantric Monastery* (*click* *click*) far an audience with *His Holiness, the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje*. From Gyuto monastery I'll go to *Dharamsala* (*click*) where His Holiness the Dalai Lama makes his residence. The Dalai Lama's residence is *the yellow building, here*. I plan to spend a couple of days in Dharamsala before heading back to Majnu Ka Tilla for a day, and then departing India from New Delhi, and arriving back the United States on April 17th.

I hope to not get caught up in the recent unrest.. but you never know. As we've seen in the reports in this thread, and elsewhere in the news, the unrest is not isolated to Tibet but has also spilled over into neighboring regions of China, into neighboring Buddhist countries such as Nepal and Bhutan, and even into New Delhi India where last weekend angry Tibetans stormed the Chinese embassy. Even usually peaceful and tranquil Dharamasla has been a bit on edge.

Anyway,..

I leave in a couple of days and.. I'm very excited!

See you on the other side, friends.

~H

[Pb Derigable]

.

I guess this is the most context-approrpiate thread to let people know that for

the next few weeks I'll be away from the boards because.. I'm going to India!

Oh man, im going to give obama the bussiness, and there will be nobody to defend him. Have fun, don't drink the water

[Hermit]

Oh man, im going to give obama the bussiness, and there will be nobody to defend him. Have fun, don't drink the water

You do that, Pb.

I'm confident the legions of Obama supporters here will

defend (and promote) him just fine while I'm away, bud.

and yeah, only bottled water for me

for the next few weeks.. for sure!!

[The Rover]

Here's the Website for a Good Rundown of News Articles about the Tibetan Struggle:

http://www.phayul.com/

And this is the link for Videos about the Tibetan Struggle:

http://media.phayul.com/