FREE TIBET ! !

[Gainsbarre]

IMO they'll have a revolution within 10-15 years. Expansion...well I don't know. What are they gonna annex? Mongolia? Vietnam? Japan?

Why are they going to have a revolution in 10-15 years?

You make the mistake that a lot of 'good natured' Americans make...

You think that democracy is a concept that is inherently understood and appreciated by all people in every country.

But it's not.

That's why things went arse over tits in Iraq, because the Bush administration just assumed that everybody would understand democracy, and it's well and good for us to say that, those of us who have lived in countries that have had democracy for a couple of hundred years, but democracy is something that has gradually developed in our societies, it didn't just happen over night.

China has been under oppressive Kingdoms and fiefdoms, and nationalist parties and communist parties since its history began...why do you think things will just suddenly change in 10 to 15 years?

If the Chinese economy keeps growing, and the population gets wealthier, there won't be any 'revolution'. Revolutions come out of desperation, and that desperation is usually born out of economic problems. If there is a change in China's political system, it will be a gradual change.

[keepitcoolinbaby]

Why are they going to have a revolution in 10-15 years?

You make the mistake that a lot of 'good natured' Americans make...

You think that democracy is a concept that is inherently understood and appreciated by all people in every country.

But it's not.

Speak for yourself pal. I am clueless what persons from other countries have on their mind just as you are Americans. You have absolutely no idea what Americans are thinking. All you have is a hooty sarcastic attitude.

That's why things went arse over tits in Iraq, because the Bush administration just assumed that everybody would understand democracy, and it's well and good for us to say that, those of us who have lived in countries that have had democracy for a couple of hundred years, but democracy is something that has gradually developed in our societies, it didn't just happen over night.

Not in yours obviously

China has been under oppressive Kingdoms and fiefdoms, and nationalist parties and comm

unist parties since its history began...why do you think things will just suddenly change in 10 to 15 years?

Go live there since you love it so much. Put a note in a bottle and sail it into the sea when you try to find a Wi Fi connection in your tiny room of overcrowded people.

If the Chinese economy keeps growing, and the population gets wealthier, there won't be any 'revolution'. Revolutions come out of desperation, and that desperation is usually born out of economic problems. If there is a change in China's political system, it will be a gradual change.

If in one hand an poopsie in the other one, see which one get's full the quickest. I resent the idea that you know what all Americans think, all Chinese think and what both governments think before going to wars. I suggest you get your history out of factual texts instead of a Cracker Jack box.

IMO you watch too much of the tele and actually believe all of it

[wanna be drummer]

6 million!

Did you skip Del's post entirely?

Deaths under Communism

20 million in the Soviet Union

65 million in the People's Republic of China

1 million in Vietnam

2 million in North Korea

2 million in Cambodia

1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe

150,000 in Latin America

1.7 million in Africa

1.5 million in Afghanistan

10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power

Thats almost 100 million deaths because of Left-Winged Bastards!

Fascism has affected the world much less than Communism apparently

[wanna be drummer]

Why are they going to have a revolution in 10-15 years?

You make the mistake that a lot of 'good natured' Americans make...

You think that democracy is a concept that is inherently understood and appreciated by all people in every country.

But it's not.

Why must you always point out I'm American or explain to me what us Americans think? Literally, you always do that. You're a typical, stereotypical non-America for cripes sake.

I don't believe democracy is inherently understood. I realize that different forms of governments suit different groups of people. But Communism is not for the Chinese, hence Tianemen Square.

China has been under oppressive Kingdoms and fiefdoms, and nationalist parties and communist parties since its history began...why do you think things will just suddenly change in 10 to 15 years?

France was under some pretty cruel rulers and absolute monarchies as well. They changed practically overnight

If the Chinese economy keeps growing, and the population gets wealthier, there won't be any 'revolution'. Revolutions come out of desperation, and that desperation is usually born out of economic problems. If there is a change in China's political system, it will be a gradual change.

I don't believe that. Young Chinese politicians (or aspiring to be politicians) are trying for more political reform in the Government. It's the old coots still in their government that are resisting change. I think the people are going to start to want more and more, as did the Russians with the Soviet Union. They never had democracy or a free market, but they wanted more of them once Gorbachev started liberalizing the USSR. I think China is going to do the same

[Gainsbarre]

Why must you always point out I'm American or explain to me what us Americans think? Literally, you always do that. You're a typical, stereotypical non-America for cripes sake.

I don't believe democracy is inherently understood. I realize that different forms of governments suit different groups of people. But Communism is not for the Chinese, hence Tianemen Square.

France was under some pretty cruel rulers and absolute monarchies as well. They changed practically overnight

I don't believe that. Young Chinese politicians (or aspiring to be politicians) are trying for more political reform in the Government. It's the old coots still in their government that are resisting change. I think the people are going to start to want more and more, as did the Russians with the Soviet Union. They never had democracy or a free market, but they wanted more of them once Gorbachev started liberalizing the USSR. I think China is going to do the same

HAHAHA

I love this quote from you:

"France was under some pretty cruel rulers and absolute monarchies as well. They changed practically overnight"

Oh boy, man, you know nothing about history...

Haven't you heard of The Paris Commune? A particularly bloody and violent period in French History which came right after the French Revolution...Napoleon was also in there...I don't think he was a big contender for Democracy since he installed himself as Emperor. Then you had the restoration of the French Monarchy (did you know that?) and then the rule of Napoleon III... then another Paris Commune...It took the French nearly a 100 years to finally achieve proper democracy...

Then you make a hilarious contradiction:

"Why must you always point out I'm American or explain to me what us Americans think?

Followed straight after with:

"I realize that different forms of governments suit different groups of people. But Communism is not for the Chinese

So you slap my wrist for pretending to know what Americans think, but boy, you know exactly what's right for the Chinese and know exactly what they want.

So you mentioned Tianenmen... That's how you know Communism isn't for China, because of Tianenmen...(even though we've said countless time Communism doesn't exist in China, but you'd rather not believe that) How many people were at Tianenmen Square in 1989? 100,000? How many people live in China, 1 billion? So you're going to tell me that 0.01% of the population is a clear representation of the wishes of the entire country? 0.01%?

You know, I like you a lot, but you're just as full of shit as anything you accuse me of

[wanna be drummer]

HAHAHA

I love this quote from you:

"France was under some pretty cruel rulers and absolute monarchies as well. They changed practically overnight"

Oh boy, man, you know nothing about history...

Haven't you heard of The Paris Commune? A particularly bloody and violent period in French History which came right after the French Revolution...Napoleon was also in there...I don't think he was a big contender for Democracy since he installed himself as Emperor. Then you had the restoration of the French Monarchy (did you know that?) and then the rule of Napoleon III... then another Paris Commune...It took the French nearly a 100 years to finally achieve proper democracy...

Then you make a hilarious contradiction:

"Why must you always point out I'm American or explain to me what us Americans think?

Followed straight after with:

"I realize that different forms of governments suit different groups of people. But Communism is not for the Chinese

So you slap my wrist for pretending to know what Americans think, but boy, you know exactly what's right for the Chinese and know exactly what they want.

So you mentioned Tianenmen... That's how you know Communism isn't for China, because of Tianenmen...(even though we've said countless time Communism doesn't exist in China, but you'd rather not believe that) How many people were at Tianenmen Square in 1989? 100,000? How many people live in China, 1 billion? So you're going to tell me that 0.01% of the population is a clear representation of the wishes of the entire country? 0.01%?

You know, I like you a lot, but you're just as full of shit as anything you accuse me of

See, I knew you'd bring up the Napoleonic regime. However, my point was that the French people tried to get the democracy they thought they rightfully deserved, practically overnight. In the end, they fucked up, but a revolution took place and they fought for what they wanted, exactly like I think the Chinese might attempt

Also, you say I contradict myself. I never said what was right for them, I simply stated what I don't think is right from them. Mao's revolution was not even supported by most of the Chinese people, but he won simply because Chiang (Shang to some people) Kai-Shek was fighting Japan, and Mao was simply a brilliant guerilla fighter. I doubt the Chinese were thrilled.

Who knows what the Chinese want? Not like they can vote for anybody besides the Communist Party...whos candidates are handpicked essentially from the elders in the government anyways. I'm just saying that I don't think its people like their government as of the moment

Point being, China votes for the only party there is, and the party which dominates their life. I don't think they appreciate a party thats murdered a hundred million of them, and executes on average, 10,000 people for, many times, unjust reasons. Thats why you have so many of them leaving China to go to Western countries. Its the Brain Drain. The educated want out.

"though we've said countless time Communism doesn't exist in China, but you'd rather not believe that"

Yeah, we've said that. But it still represents a socialistic state as of right now.

And just for the record, I've yet to call you full of shit, or even hint at it...

[Gainsbarre]

See, I knew you'd bring up the Napoleonic regime. However, my point was that the French people tried to get the democracy they thought they rightfully deserved, practically overnight. In the end, they fucked up, but a revolution took place and they fought for what they wanted, exactly like I think the Chinese might attempt

Well not even the French Revolution happened overnight, it occured over a period of about 3 years...

Anyway they didn't fuck up, what happened in the French Revolution is what happens in the transition period, from absolutist rule to democracy, there will always be a power vacuum that different groups will try to fill...

I'm sorry the Chinese will not attempt anything like the French Revolution, because again and again you keep ignoring the point that revolutions like that happened out of economic desperation. The economic situation in France in 1789 was woeful...People were starving, living standards were falling and desperation was setting in...That is just not happening in China...

Also, you say I contradict myself. I never said what was right for them, I simply stated what I don't think is right from them.

Haha, oh please, you didn't just say that did you? Oh man... You're just making thinsg worse for yourself

Mao's revolution was not even supported by most of the Chinese people, but he won simply because Chiang (Shang to some people) Kai-Shek was fighting Japan, and Mao was simply a brilliant guerilla fighter. I doubt the Chinese were thrilled.

You see, again, you're showing how much you don't know about history. Chiang and Mao both fought the Japanese, not each other. The war with Japan was over, before the final battles between the Communists and the KMT took place...And again, you make the misguided assumption that because Chinag wasn't Communist that everyone in China was happy and free, and no one wanted the Communists to come to power, which is a load of rubbish. Chiang and the KMT were dictatorial, there was wide-spread corruption, human rights abuses and worsening poverty. And in a country like China were the majority of people were poor, Chiang and the KMT only represented the interests of the welathy and corrupt middle class. Mao had support from the peasants. Mao was extremely particular about the Communist Party Army assisting villages with harvests and other rural needs, which gave him a lot of support in the country at that time. Mao just was not supported by the land-owning wealthy middle classes who were pro-Chiang and pro-USA

Point being, China votes for the only party there is, and the party which dominates their life. I don't think they appreciate a party thats murdered a hundred million of them, and executes on average, 10,000 people for, many times, unjust reasons. Thats why you have so many of them leaving China to go to Western countries. Its the Brain Drain. The educated want out.

But it's the same issue in Malaysia and Singapore, and I don't see you claiming there's going to be revolution in those countries. The PAP has ruled Singapore since 1959... There's no democracy there at all, but are the Singaporeans going to revolt?

If the situation is so bad in China, why didn't everyone flee Hong Kong when it was handed back? If you know so much about Diaspora, then you would know that the Chinese have an extremely large one that has been happening for hundreds of years, maybe it has nothing to do with the Communist Party?

Why do 90% of all Chinese students who study overseas go back to China, if the situation is that bad?

I think you're views are just shaped by anti-communist American propaganda... There are countries in the world much more horrendous to live in, than China. But because they're not labeled Communist, nothing ever gets said about them, but if they are labelled Communist, then people like you have a tendency to claim that they're the baddest of the bad, the worst of the worst. And during the Cultural Revolution, China probably was the most hellish place to live on earth, but that was 40 years ago and a lot of things have changed.

Yes there is still opression and human rights abuse sin China, but I'd rather live there than in Iran...

[The Rover]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/nolympic206.xml

The Olympic torch parade descended into chaotic scenes today as more than 25 protesters were arrested within the two hours of its tour of London.

Former Blue Peter presenter Konnie Huq was caught in the middle of an ugly scuffle as a man attempted to wrestle the torch from her hands.

The Olympic flame can barely be seen among the police protecting it from protesters

The parade was brought to a temporary halt five times in its first few miles as anti-China protesters made repeated attempts to breach security, including one man who tried to extinguish the flame with a fire extinguisher.

However Prime Minister Gordon Brown welcomed the torch at Downing Street, where at 1pm he posed for photographed alongside the torch - by which time 25 protesters had been taken into custody.

Vast crowds of peaceful pro-Tibet protesters – calling for independence from China – also lined the streets, chanting "Free Tibet" and booing the torch bearers.

Britain's greatest Olympian, Sir Steve Redgrave, started the route at Wembley stadium in north London.

But within five minutes – after he had passed it to the second torch carrier - a protestor tried to steal the flame as it was carried on to a bus. The woman was bundled to the ground and arrested along with two others.

She screamed at television cameras: "I urge you Gordon Brown listen. Free Tibet".

After a brief, quiet period, there were three incidents in 10 minutes in west London.

Miss Huq, who had expressed her doubts about taking part in the event, ran with it for several minutes but as she stopped to pass the flame over, a man in a brown jacket grabbed it from her hands and six police officers and attendants were forced to wrestle it from him.

One onlooker said: "It was a very nasty scuffle and Konnie looked shocked by it all".

Five minutes later another man ran out of the crowd and was stopped by police just before he reached the inner cordon.

At 11.30am, a man disguised in a yellow day-glo jacket ran out from the side of a crowd and let off a fire extinguisher.

He was forced to the ground as the air filed with white smoke.

TV presenter Konnie Huq reacts after a protester tried to wrestle the flame from her grasp

Police then beefed up security, bringing in van loads of officers to flank the convoy running alongside it along with motorcycles and a dozen officers on bicycles closely guarding the torch.

Around 15 Chinese attendants, dressed in blue and white, also huddled around it. Four minutes later the torch was passed to British tennis champion Tim Henman.

He wore an uneasy smile as he watched the crowd closely, jogging down the road.

In Bloomsbury Square the ceremony came to a complete halt in a stand-off between large crowds of pro-China and pro-Tibet supporters.

Sir Clive Woodward, the World Cup winning rugby coach, was confronted by three protesters immediately as he was handed the flame. They were all arrested.

In Trafalgar Square, as Sir Trevor Macdonald held the torch aloft, large groups of protesters clashed with police in the most violent scenes and six people were detained.

Police say they have made around 35 arrests along the 31 mile route.

[Del Zeppnile]

Try telling that one to the Jews!!

I was not defending Fascism or the Nazis. My point was that Communism has killed far more people in the world then all the Fascists combined. But I'm not saying they were better.

[Mangani]

I was not defending Fascism or the Nazis. My point was that Communism has killed far more people in the world then all the Fascists combined.

I agree totally. It really pisses me off the hypocrisy of folks who bitch and scream and get offended by the Swastika..................yet turn a blind eye and couldn't care less when the Commie Hammer and Sickle is proudly displayed.

I.........just.........don't........get..........it!

[The Forsaken]

This thread is about the funniest pile of hooey l l.

[Gainsbarre]

I agree totally. It really pisses me off the hypocrisy of folks who bitch and scream and get offended by the Swastika..................yet turn a blind eye and couldn't care less when the Commie Hammer and Sickle is proudly displayed.

I.........just.........don't........get..........it!

It's because those who brandished the swastika had a party policy of persecuting and killing people based on ethnicity and any other considered 'social irregularity"

Fascism "seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, and/or religious attributes." i.e. its policy is to discriminate against people based on people what they are biologically and culturally...

Although people have done some nasty things while being in charge of a Communist Party, such as Stalin and Mao, these were attributed to the leaders themselves, and their personal paranoias and the results of having too much power.

Communist ideology does not promulgate any policy which seeks to discriminate against people with regards to their race, gender, ethnicity, culture, sexuality etc. In fact Communist ideology is that everyone must come together and live in a class-free society with no racial, ethnic, gender prejudice and co-habitate in complete social equality. Communism is primarily an economic model for organising social structures, not for creating a particular 'race' or 'culture' of people, like fascism...

To throw out the "commie hammer and sickle" because of the actions of say, Joseph Stalin, would be, as the old saying goes, to throw the baby out with the bathwater...

And while we're talking about symbols, what about the Cross? The Cross was a ubiquitous symbol of Roman torture and cruelty, and also the Christian Church's most important symbol...So it represents two different things...Should Christians not use the Cross as a symbol? The Cross represented Rome's cruel oppression over its colonies...so by your reasoning shouldn't people also get upset when they see the Cross? If Christians can make the cross represent love and salvation, then surely, the "commie hammer and sickle" can still represent what it was supposed to: the unity and struggle of the oppressed peasant and worker...

Can you see the difference now?

It doesn't hurt to get educated, does it?

[The Rover]

Hillary Clinton calls for Olympic opening boycott

The first high-profile move of the post-Penn campaign:

Clinton is calling on Bush to boycott the Olympics opening ceremony.

An aide confirms the news, reported first -- EXCLUSIVE -- by Drudge.

Leaders led by German chancellor Angela Merkel have made plans to boycott the opening ceremony to press China for its crackdown in Tibet.

A coalition of groups trying to end the Sudanese government's attacks on civilians in Darfur also called Friday on world leaders to boycott the opening ceremony to protest China's support for Sudan's government.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has also suggested boycotting the August 8 opening ceremony.

"How can world leaders watch the lighting of the Olympic torch – under the “one world, one dream” banner – without taking bolder action to extinguish the flames of violence still consuming the defenseless men, women and children of Darfur?" the groups said in a statement.

UPDATE: Clinton released a statement Monday afternoon calling for the confrontational step, a high-profile move that could also serve to distract from her campaign's internal woes:

The violent clashes in Tibet and the failure of the Chinese government to use its full leverage with Sudan to stop the genocide in Darfur are opportunities for Presidential leadership. These events underscore why I believe the Bush administration has been wrong to downplay human rights in its policy towards China. At this time, and in light of recent events, I believe President Bush should not plan on attending the opening ceremonies in Beijing, absent major changes by the Chinese government.

I encourage the Chinese to take advantage of this moment as an opportunity to live up to universal human aspirations of respect for human rights and unity, ideals that the Olympic games have come to represent.

Americans will stand strong in support of freedom of religious and political expression and human rights. Americans will also stand strong and root for the success of American athletes who have worked hard and earned the right to compete in the Olympic Games of 2008.

By Ben Smith 11:55 AM

[zepyep]

hi all,

It's because those who brandished the swastika had a party policy of persecuting and killing people based on ethnicity and any other considered 'social irregularity"

The swastika,was painted on ancient Greek pottery in the 3rd and 4th century BC,the paperhanger didn't invent it but rediscovered it.The sons of Ayran was supposedly Iran,...

Fascism "seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, and/or religious attributes." i.e. its policy is to discriminate against people based on people what they are biologically and culturally...

Along with gypsies,gays and Slaves,....

Although people have done some nasty things while being in charge of a Communist Party, such as Stalin and Mao, these were attributed to the leaders themselves, and their personal paranoias and the results of having too much power.

You mean Stalin,Hitler and el Duece,didn't?

Communist ideology does not promulgate any policy which seeks to discriminate against people with regards to their race, gender, ethnicity, culture, sexuality etc. In fact Communist ideology is that everyone must come together and live in a class-free society with no racial, ethnic, gender prejudice and co-habitate in complete social equality. Communism is primarily an economic model for organising social structures, not for creating a particular 'race' or 'culture' of people, like fascism...

In theory,but not in fact,correct?One thing Marx&Engles left out was human nature and free will.Big mistake.So Stalin,has his generals murdered,exterimates gypsies,gays and jews.Was that personal paranioa or just too much power?

To throw out the "commie hammer and " because of the actions of say, Joseph Stalin, would be, as the old saying goes, to throw the baby out with the bathwater...

Are people in Russia,ask to have it back?

I remember having a sweat shirts,brought back to me from a friend who went to an internaional track meet,one said CCCP the other DRR,I wore them to meets,it got a rise out of folks, it did.(70's&80's)Lot's of people went all 'Evil Empire' on me! I simply said "They will be free one day."

It ended when i palmed my 16lbs(1stone) shot put at them and told them my intent,subtle?

And while we're talking about symbols, what about the Cross? The Cross was a ubiquitous symbol of Roman torture and cruelty, and also the Christian Church's most important symbol...So it represents two different things...Should Christians not use the Cross as a symbol? The Cross represented Rome's cruel oppression over its colonies...so by your reasoning shouldn't people also get upset when they see the Cross? If Christians can make the cross represent love and salvation, then surely, the "commie hammer and sickle" can still represent what it was supposed to: the unity and struggle of the oppressed peasant and worker...

The cross in Ireland,the celtic cross was both pagen and Christian,combining the two.Again Jesus Christ was not the first,nor the last to be crucified.it was a symbol od 'Roman justice' in which the condemded was not killed by the hanging on ropes nor spiking,but by strangulation,the chin lowered on the breast and cutting the windpipe off,...

I'll go back and remind thee of what these things represent to those who see them for what they are: The swastica,will never mean Greek pottery

The hammer&sickle will never mean anything good to Poland,nor Yugoslavia,or Hungery.

The cross will always mean Christ and this: "Forgive them Father,for they no not what they do."

KB

[Gainsbarre]

hi all,

KB

That's nice, so what's your point?

[Mangani]

It's because those who brandished the swastika had a party policy of persecuting and killing people based on ethnicity and any other considered 'social irregularity"

And when all is said and done how is that really any worse than a party policy of persecuting and killing people based on political (i.e non Communist) ideals and any other considered similar 'social irregularity' within the state?? You are cherry picking.

Nazism = "you don't conform to our standards and you die".

Communism = "you don't conform to our standards and you die".

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. The reasons are different but the results are the same.

Although people have done some nasty things while being in charge of a Communist Party, such as Stalin and Mao, these were attributed to the leaders themselves, and their personal paranoias and the results of having too much power.

Oh come off it. Communism and brutality/persecution went had in hand with one another wherever it was established. Communism GAVE BIRTH to the skewed and whacked reasoning and ideologies of those tyrants that wielded the power.

Communist ideology does not promulgate any policy which seeks to discriminate against people with regards to their race, gender, ethnicity, culture, sexuality etc.

No, just politics. "If you're not with us then you are against us and must be destroyed". Bit like Islam in that ideology isn't it? LOL.

In fact Communist ideology is that everyone must come together and live in a class-free society with no racial, ethnic, gender prejudice and co-habitate in complete social equality. Communism is primarily an economic model for organising social structures, not for creating a particular 'race' or 'culture' of people, like fascism...

....and if you don't do as we say, you die or are locked away. Wonderful.

To throw out the "commie hammer and sickle" because of the actions of say, Joseph Stalin, would be, as the old saying goes, to throw the baby out with the bathwater...

Oh but wouldn't it be just a neat and simple solution to just ascribe Communist attrocities to a few top guvnors and forget about the rest of the whole despotic, skewed and deeply flawed shibang. Hmmmmmm.

And while we're talking about symbols, what about the Cross? The Cross was a ubiquitous symbol of Roman torture and cruelty, and also the Christian Church's most important symbol...So it represents two different things...Should Christians not use the Cross as a symbol?

I'm an atheist and have no care nor interest what they do. This topic was about Communism.

If Christians can make the cross represent love and salvation, then surely, the "commie hammer and sickle" can still represent what it was supposed to: the unity and struggle of the oppressed peasant and worker...

I'm not talking about pretense. I'm talking about reality. The pretense is that Communism was a lovely and wonderful friend of the oppressed worker. The reality is that Communism was a barbaric, disgusting and brutal political organisation, wherever it went. The facts are there in black and white and you cannot avoid it.

By the way, the people who usually wave the hammer and sickle flags on protest and demo marches are not oppressed peasants and workers. They are usually idiotic far left wing anti capitalist 6th form college scruff bags in desperate need of a bath who haven't yet grown up.

It doesn't hurt to get educated, does it?

Who has been educated? You have not offered anything I have not heard before. It still doesn't wash with me and never will.

It's complete hypocrisy to bitch about Nazism and defend Communism.

[Gainsbarre]

Who has been educated? You have not offered anything I have not heard before. It still doesn't wash with me and never will.

It's complete hypocrisy to bitch about Nazism and defend Communism.

There's no point in discussing any of it with you, because your brain can't distinguish between Communist theory and human failings.

Communism never failed because it was never achieved. The failing wasn't in the Communist system, but in the human psychology of those who were in charge of it.

But it's useless telling you that because you don't have the brains to be able to see that distinction.

I answered your question but you don't want it answered because it would conflict with your simpler generalised view of it.

The Nazi Swastika symbolised a fascist party who's policy it was to kill people based on racism and cultural and ethnic differences...

The Hammer and Sickle represented a Communist ideology which was meant to indicate an inclusive society without class-based or cultural distinctions that was hijacked by some dictatorial cruel people...

If you don't get it, well what can be done for you? I don't know, maybe you're just not very intelligent. Not everyone is...

[The Rover]

What will 4-9 Bring ? ? ?

Chaotic Olympic torch relay called off in Paris

April 8, 2008

Chinese officials called off a chaotic relay of the Olympic torch through Paris after thousands of pro-Tibet protesters tried to block its path and the flame had to be extinguished at least twice.

Police said the Chinese authorities organising the five-hour passage of the torch had decided to give up the road relay after demonstrators protesting against China's crackdown on Tibet constantly snarled its progress and forced lengthy delays.

The torch relay hit trouble almost as soon as it set off from the Eiffel Tower, and regularly ground to halt when protesters threatened to break through the imposing security cordon thrown around the athletes carrying the flame.

"Boycott Chinese goods" and "Save Tibet" read some of the banners held aloft by demonstrators. Other people came to support Beijing and waved Chinese flags above the crowds.

More than four hours after setting out on its 28km trip, officials finally decided to put the flame on a bus and sped down to the final leg of the relay -- a stadium in southern Paris which houses the French Olympic Committee.

Crowds of protesters jeered at the throngs of riot police called up to protect the cortege.

"We are doing our best but it will take the world to put pressure on China to help bring democracy and human rights to Tibet," said Phurbu Dolker, a 21-year-old Tibetan refugee.

The scenes were reminiscent of the protests that hit the torch's passage through London yesterday, with the build-up to the Beijing Olympics rapidly becoming a public relations disaster for the Chinese organisers.

Mayor Bernard Delanoe told reporters the Chinese had cancelled a planned reception for the torch at Paris city hall at the last minute after a banner supporting human rights was hung from the facade of the building.

"The Chinese officials decided they would not stop here because they were put out by Parisian citizens expressing their support for human rights. It is their responsibility," he said.

Earlier police and officials said the Olympic torch had been extinguished at least three times because of technical problems or for safety reasons. On one occasion, it was put out despite the fact that protesters appeared to be well away from the relay team, which was flanked by police on rollerblades.

"Security Fiasco," France 24 television said in a banner headline running on the bottom of its screen.

At least 23 people were briefly detained by police for trying to disturb the relay, a spokesman for the Free Tibet movement said. Television showed one protester lying in the road, his face smeared with blood: "Free Tibet" he shouted.

Militants from rights group Reporters Without Borders chained themselves to the Eiffel Tower and deployed a black flag with handcuffs replacing the Olympic rings.

A member of the French Greens party had earlier been restrained by police when trying to grab the torch from the first of 80 torch bearers, former world 400 metres hurdles champion Stephane Diagana.

Escorted by security, Diagana was wearing a badge reading "For a better world".

France has deployed more than 3,000 police officers for the zig-zagging journey to the southern edge of Paris, where the torch was initially due to arrive at 1500 GMT (0100 AEST).

Thousands of protesters waving Tibetan flags and shouting "Shame on China" tried to disrupt the torch's run through London yesterday, the British leg of the international relay billed by Beijing as the "harmonious journey".

The Olympic flame is expected to remain a magnet for anti-Chinese protests ahead of the August Games in Beijing.

The flame is due to return to Beijing on August 6, two days before it will be used to light the cauldron at the Olympic opening ceremony.

Reuters

[Del Zeppnile]

I agree totally. It really pisses me off the hypocrisy of folks who bitch and scream and get offended by the Swastika..................yet turn a blind eye and couldn't care less when the Commie Hammer and Sickle is proudly displayed.

I.........just.........don't........get..........it!

Yeah me too. I'm currently on vacation in Northern California (Humbolt County), and if I see one more Che Guevara or Chairman Mao T-shirt wearing hippy I think I'm gonna smack them in the head.

Why some people are nostalgic about these murdering thugs is beyond me. But these same hippies have all sorts of vile bumper stickers directed at George Bush and Dick Cheney. Hey, if people don't like the current administration that's fine with me. But they pretty much loose all credibility as soon as I see the Guevara, Mao and Ho Chi Min crapola.

Did you skip Del's post entirely?

Deaths under Communism

20 million in the Soviet Union

65 million in the People's Republic of China

1 million in Vietnam

2 million in North Korea

2 million in Cambodia

1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe

150,000 in Latin America

1.7 million in Africa

1.5 million in Afghanistan

10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power

Thats almost 100 million deaths because of Left-Winged Bastards!

Fascism has affected the world much less than Communism apparently

[Del Zeppnile]

edited:

double post

[Pb Derigable]

They say one world, one dream, but they completely oppose us liberating the Iraqis? Now these could be hardcore right wingers, but who are we kidding, this is the same part of the country that wanted to kick the marines out so they couldn't recuit.

I do like how Hillary said that President Bush should not go to the opening ceremonies. Yeah like the Chinese give a fuck about that.

I would like us to boycott the olympics, but that should've been decided a year ago.

[Bong-Man]

**yawn**

Um, kind of bored this morning....I think I'll go attack the Olympic flame.

[Mangani]

Yeah me too. I'm currently on vacation in Northern California (Humbolt County), and if I see one more Che Guevara or Chairman Mao T-shirt wearing hippy I think I'm gonna smack them in the head.

You hold them down and I'll stick the boot in.

[Mangani]

There's no point in discussing any of it with you, because your brain can't distinguish between Communist theory and human failings.

Those human failings were brought about by that Communist theory. It's YOUR brain that cannot deal with that fact.

Communism never failed because it was never achieved. The failing wasn't in the Communist system, but in the human psychology of those who were in charge of it.

See above. Communism did that to people.

But it's useless telling you that because you don't have the brains to be able to see that distinction.

While you bury your head in the sand and pretend Communism was/is fabulous.

I answered your question but you don't want it answered because it would conflict with your simpler generalised view of it.

No you didn't answer it. You fudged the question and came up with nonsense.

The Nazi Swastika symbolised a fascist party who's policy it was to kill people based on racism and cultural and ethnic differences...

Communism symbolised tyranical political parties who's policy it was to kill people based on their political objections and differences.

Both killed. Both were despotic and vile.

The Hammer and Sickle represented a Communist ideology which was meant to indicate an inclusive society without class-based or cultural distinctions that was hijacked by some dictatorial cruel people...

'Meant' to. It never actually succeeded. You can be a supporter/admirer of socialism without the affiliation and love for Communism. Communsim was and is the worst form of socialism.

If you don't get it, well what can be done for you? I don't know, maybe you're just not very intelligent. Not everyone is...

Oh my, such wit. I'm deeply hurt by your cutting remarks. It has really put me in my place.

[GioBrasil]

And the capitalism makes so:

Africa

Brasil

Iraq