The Next President of the USA will be?

[DRUNK]

Well, the Muslims do want to kill us. They want to kill or convert the nonbelievers, and take over the world. That's the goal.

The western world directly conflicts with everything Muslim. It's not going to change either.

[bigstickbonzo]

I think alot of Muslim resentment from the Middle East is largely to do with our policies, not our religion.

However, as someone who has read the Qu'ran, I can say its certainly a religion filled with alot of bullshit and hypocricy.

[wanna be drummer]

Well, the Muslims do want to kill us. They want to kill or convert the nonbelievers, and take over the world. That's the goal.

Maybe. But, I doubt the everyday Muslim is going to dedicate his/her life to killing as many infidels as possible. They just want to live like the rest of us.

Oh, and by the by. Islam and Christianity are both evangelical faiths. We both want to convert the whole world. Thats the goal of both religions. If you missed that, then your missing the entire basis of the Christian religion

The western world directly conflicts with everything Muslim. It's not going to change either.

Not historically. At one point, the Middle East was far ahead of Europe in many scientific fields.

In recent history, dictators have discouraged any kind of another Scientific Revolution that could possibly have happened over there by now. They're backwards, but at point, they were the world power

[wanna be drummer]

I like you Drunk. Tell that moron how it is. Cheers to you. Ill drink to you!!!

Do you feel tough ICQYB? You think because your calling me a moron, your winning the argument?

You've yet to bring up any kind of argument that doesn't involve the simple idea "Muslims want to kill everyone" Want you don't realize, is that you are just as bad as them in wanted to kill off all of them.

I respect DRUNK for at least partaking in the discussion (albeit the insults may not be necessary), whereas you cower behind him and...well thats about it. You call yourself a Chrisitan. No your not. You've failed at it.

You've resorted to name-calling and I must admit, I'm getting quite a kick out of it. Your worse than my 11 year old brother ya know that? He puts up better arguments than you. He at least answers directly what I say to him. You on the other hand pick and choose what you will answer (how many of my posts have you outright skipped?) and you call names and you hide behind a veteran to stand up for you.

Your pathetic.

[DRUNK]

Really? 1 Billion Muslims were celebrating after 9/11? You know this for a fact? I wasn't aware the News stations had that kind of radius

In comparison, thats like saying the entire West was celebrating when we bombed the hell out of Bagdhad and everyone in it

Edit: dont worry bigstick, if he wants to insult a teenager then let him.

Sad day when I'm the mature one talking

Well, of course no one can say every single Muslim was celebrating, but I can comfortably say that the majority were.

Maturity? Shall we talk about maturity? How old are you?

Maturity: a typical western word that western parents try to use praise their children or others to make themselves feel better about the job they have done.

One day you might not be so brainwashed. Hopefully.

[wanna be drummer]

Well, of course no one can say every single Muslim was celebrating, but I can comfortably say that the majority were.

Maturity? Shall we talk about maturity? How old are you?

Maturity: a typical western word that western parents try to use praise their children or others to make themselves feel better about the job they have done.

One day you might not be so brainwashed. Hopefully.

I was referring to ICQYB not you. I'm 17 years old. Why do you care?

And while I agree that many Muslims were cheering on 9/11, how many didn't care, and if so is that a crime? How many terrorist acts go on in countries not directed at the US and we simply don't give a shit, even when we hear them firsthand?

But still, I doubt 500 million people cheered on 9/11.

[DRUNK]

Maybe. But, I doubt the everyday Muslim is going to dedicate his/her life to killing as many infidels as possible. They just want to live like the rest of us.

Oh, and by the by. Islam and Christianity are both evangelical faiths. We both want to convert the whole world. Thats the goal of both religions. If you missed that, then your missing the entire basis of the Christian religion

Not historically. At one point, the Middle East was far ahead of Europe in many scientific fields.

In recent history, dictators have discouraged any kind of another Scientific Revolution that could possibly have happened over there by now. They're backwards, but at point, they were the world power

Yes, they are an extremely old civilization. One of the first. Of course a human population that is established, is always going to get the first opportunities to discover and develop things that will always gets discovered and developed regardless. it doesn't really matter who gets the first opportunity, because these things are common sense things which would have happened either way.

[bigstickbonzo]

Well all of a sudden you are making sense.

I've made sense from post # 1.

Welcome to the middle!

[wanna be drummer]

Yes, they are an extremely old civilization. One of the first. Of course a human population that is established, is always going to get the first opportunities to discover and develop things that will always gets discovered and developed regardless. it doesn't really matter who gets the first opportunity, because these things are common sense things which would have happened either way.

Europe only grew to be so powerful, because it copied the Middle East's science (everything from weapons, to medicine, to shipbuilding, etc.) as well as China's. We took what they did and built upon it (like the Japanese today). But I must stress that the Middle East had many more breakthroughs in math and medicine and anatomy and astrology then Europe ever made in those times. Why? They were the much more civilized society at that time.

[DRUNK]

And while I agree that many Muslims were cheering on 9/11, how many didn't care, and if so is that a crime? How many terrorist acts go on in countries not directed at the US and we simply don't give a shit, even when we hear them firsthand?

But still, I doubt 500 million people cheered on 9/11.

Well, anyone who reads or watches the news frequently will see that there are terrorist acts going on all around the world, which of course are mostly committed by Muslims.

Muslims did care because it was a great victory against the evil empire, in their eyes.

We have 1.2 billion Muslims on earth, and the majority of them are not living in the western world. It is not a far stretch of the imagination to assume that the majority of these people were celebrating. Of course we can never put an exact number on anything.

[wanna be drummer]

He is another fucking know it all. Muslim sympathizing idiot. shit for brains. There, now that is name calling. And I am a christian. And when did I ever say i wanted to kill anyone? Bush made the decision to go in. Im a Dem and a Catholic. You are blind.

How can I be a know-it-all if your doing the exact same thing as me - arguing?

Oh, so you don't want to kill the Muslims? You just hate them. Interesting. And what, pray tell, would like to do with them? Lock em up?

No your not a Christian, especially not a Catholic. You've proven that here today. Can't even keep a civilized conversation with a kid half your age. You have quite the temper I've discovered. Your filled with hate. Thats exctaly the opposite of what Christ expects from us, and exactly opposite of what Christianity is all about.

Maybe you should do some exploring into your so-called faith. You've got some changing to do bud. Christ is calling, how about you let Him in?

[DRUNK]

He is another fucking know it all. Muslim sympathizing idiot. shit for brains. There, now that is name calling. And I am a christian. And when did I ever say i wanted to kill anyone? Bush made the decision to go in. Im a Dem and a Catholic. You are blind.

The problem with America and particularly the western world is that people have been living so isolated and sheltered from the rest of the world, that they truly have no idea what is actually going on. They are brainwashed from day one to believe everyone is good and equal, and they are brought up in an extremely politically correct way. Yeah, developing like this is nice in theory, but the outcome is producing people that cannot accept or judge what is actually going on.

So once again, people of the western world nowadays just don't get it.

[Nathan]

DRUNK and icantquiteyoubabe... you two are serious idiots. You lump in the many with the few.

Half the reason I left Christianity is because of the fanatics. I do everything I can to keep quiet pricks like those of the Phelps family. But I know that for every one Christian fanatic, there are at least 10 non-fanatical Christians who are great to talk to and are open-minded. My mom's parents are Catholic, and if you want proof that not all Catholics are as bad as the anti-Catholic brigade would have us believe, you need look no further then my maternal grand-parents. My grandma does the Jewish blessing over Challa and wine when she's with us, and we've taught her how to "bench" (which is basically what it's called when a Jew does grace, which is done after meals instead of before meals). My grandfather and his son-in-law (my dad) have been talking about interfaith activities for years. That right there is proof that for every one Christian/Catholic fanatic, there are at least ten who aren't fanatics.

Same goes for all religions, including Islam.

EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW IS AGAINST THE TERRORISTS AND THINK THE FANATICS NEED TO BE DEALT WITH AND PUT DOWN. EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW SUPPORTS THE WAR AGAINST TERROR AND WANTS TO SEE GROUPS LIKE AL QUAEDA(sp?) AND PEOPLE LIKE BIN LADEN PUT DOWN. EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW LOVES AMERICA AND DOES NOT WANT IT DESTROYED. AND EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW DISGAREES WITH THE IDEA THAT YOU HAVE TO CONVERT OR KILL EVERYONE WHO ISN'T MUSLIM.

You two have no fucking clue. We had this attitude towards the Japanese during WWII and it's a proven fact that many of them cheered for America to beat Japan even while being held in camps. All my Muslim friends know I am Jewish. A couple of them have been to synagogue with me and they love it. Two go with me to Shul every time I go because they love the language and the ritual and love watching how spirituallly moved the Jews are in the service... and they have never asked me to join them in a Muslim service in return, even though I have, and quite a few times... and not only do their parents not have a problem with it, but they have also come to shul on occasion because they also enjoy the experience... in fact they joined my family, their kids, and myself today at synagogue. And 5 of my Muslim friends went to my Bar Mitzvah 7 years ago when I was 13.

ALL of them are openminded. And if you bothered to get to know Muslims yourselves, you might find that my friends are not in a minority, but a majority. The ONLY Muslims who are this fanatical are the Middle Eastern ones, and then it's not even all of them (though I will agree it is the majority over there, especially since they're taught this anti-Jew, anti-America crap in school over there). The majority of American Muslims support America, want no part in "convert or kill," and want to see the end of fanatical Islam.

So stop talking you two, because you sound like ignorant fucks. Would you say this about Jews if it were fanatical Jews who instigated the attacks? What about Christians? What about blacks? What about Indians? What about Asians? What about women? What about children?

And you can't say it's not the same thing. It's exactly the same thing. You're just being bigoted.

[Matthew!]

He is another fucking know it all. Muslim sympathizing idiot. shit for brains. There, now that is name calling. And I am a christian. And when did I ever say i wanted to kill anyone? Bush made the decision to go in. Im a Dem and a Catholic. You are blind.

I'm pretty sure Wannabe isn't just a "know it all"...at least he has an idea what he's talking about. You just spout off insults and fallacies.

[DRUNK]

Europe only grew to be so powerful, because it copied the Middle East's science (everything from weapons, to medicine, to shipbuilding, etc.) as well as China's. We took what they did and built upon it (like the Japanese today). But I must stress that the Middle East had many more breakthroughs in math and medicine and anatomy and astrology then Europe ever made in those times. Why? They were the much more civilized society at that time.

Negative. My answer for you is that you need to spend some time educating yourself.

Of course everyone borrows things from each other, and this is no different.

[wanna be drummer]

Well, anyone who reads or watches the news frequently will see that there are terrorist acts going on all around the world, which of course are mostly committed by Muslims.

Muslims did care because it was a great victory against the evil empire, in their eyes.

We have 1.2 billion Muslims on earth, and the majority of them are not living in the western world. It is not a far stretch of the imagination to assume that the majority of these people were celebrating. Of course we can never put an exact number on anything.

Actually, the one of the biggest terrorist groups in the world is Hindu (go figure), bombing the hell out of Muslim civilians

And yes, many Middle Eastern Muslims did care, but can you blame them? With our policies and our oil-money ruining their society, can you blame them for maybe not liking us too much? But again, I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are that extreme

Well that explains it all to me. You are 17. Another know it all teenager who thinks he has all the answers. I have lived through more than you have many times over. i was around during VietNam. When you were a twinkle in your daddys eye. It is good that you youngsters care about what is going on in the world. But to sit there and think you have all the answers and know more than I do, is pure stupidity. Come back and talk to me when you are an adult.

Your right, maybe I should be like 90% of teenagers and just not care right? Thats how youth is supposed to be

Of course I'm going to argue with you, I have strong beliefs. I don't like Islam in any way or form. Hell I almost hate the religion as a whole, but I know enough about the world to realize that not everyone of them is out to kill me. It's ridiculous to believe so.

And I don't care what you've lived through, because you have still not given any form of support for any of your arguemtns other than calling me a dumbass, moron, and a know-it-all.

Come back and talk to me when you develop a decent thesis for idea you have mmkay?

[icantquityoubabe]

Actually, the one of the biggest terrorist groups in the world is Hindu (go figure), bombing the hell out of Muslim civilians

And yes, many Middle Eastern Muslims did care, but can you blame them? With our policies and our oil-money ruining their society, can you blame them for maybe not liking us too much? But again, I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are that extreme

Your right, maybe I should be like 90% of teenagers and just not care right? Thats how youth is supposed to be

Of course I'm going to argue with you, I have strong beliefs. I don't like Islam in any way or form. Hell I almost hate the religion as a whole, but I know enough about the world to realize that not everyone of them is out to kill me. It's ridiculous to believe so.

And I don't care what you've lived through, because you have still not given any form of support for any of your arguemtns other than calling me a dumbass, moron, and a know-it-all.

Come back and talk to me when you develop a decent thesis for idea you have mmkay?

I just did. Its called 9/11

[DRUNK]

DRUNK and icantquiteyoubabe... you two are serious idiots. You lump in the many with the few.

Half the reason I left Christianity is because of the fanatics. I do everything I can to keep quiet pricks like those of the Phelps family. But I know that for every one Christian fanatic, there are at least 10 non-fanatical Christians who are great to talk to and are open-minded. My mom's parents are Catholic, and if you want proof that not all Catholics are as bad as the anti-Catholic brigade would have us believe, you need look no further then my maternal grand-parents. My grandma does the Jewish blessing over Challa and wine when she's with us, and we've taught her how to "bench" (which is basically what it's called when a Jew does grace, which is done after meals instead of before meals). My grandfather and his son-in-law (my dad) have been talking about interfaith activities for years. That right there is proof that for every one Christian/Catholic fanatic, there are at least ten who aren't fanatics.

Same goes for all religions, including Islam.

EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW IS AGAINST THE TERRORISTS AND THINK THE FANATICS NEED TO BE DEALT WITH AND PUT DOWN. EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW SUPPORTS THE WAR AGAINST TERROR AND WANTS TO SEE GROUPS LIKE AL QUAEDA(sp?) AND PEOPLE LIKE BIN LADEN PUT DOWN. EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW LOVES AMERICA AND DOES NOT WANT IT DESTROYED. AND EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM I KNOW DISGAREES WITH THE IDEA THAT YOU HAVE TO CONVERT OR KILL EVERYONE WHO ISN'T MUSLIM.

You two have no fucking clue. We had this attitude towards the Japanese during WWII and it's a proven fact that many of them cheered for America to beat Japan even while being held in camps. All my Muslim friends know I am Jewish. A couple of them have been to synagogue with me and they love it. Two go with me to Shul every time I go because they love the language and the ritual and love watching how spirituallly moved the Jews are in the service... and they have never asked me to join them in a Muslim service in return, even though I have, and quite a few times... and not only do their parents not have a problem with it, but they have also come to shul on occasion because they also enjoy the experience... in fact they joined my family, their kids, and myself today at synagogue. And 5 of my Muslim friends went to my Bar Mitzvah 7 years ago when I was 13.

ALL of them are openminded. And if you bothered to get to know Muslims yourselves, you might find that my friends are not in a minority, but a majority. The ONLY Muslims who are this fanatical are the Middle Eastern ones, and then it's not even all of them (though I will agree it is the majority over there, especially since they're taught this anti-Jew, anti-America crap in school over there). The majority of American Muslims support America, want no part in "convert or kill," and want to see the end of fanatical Islam.

So stop talking you two, because you sound like ignorant fucks. Would you say this about Jews if it were fanatical Jews who instigated the attacks? What about Christians? What about blacks? What about Indians? What about Asians? What about women? What about children?

And you can't say it's not the same thing. It's exactly the same thing. You're just being bigoted.

Come back and talk to me after Iran nukes Israel in a few years.

Do you really think these Muslims you know are going to tell you anything different? You think you are getting honest answers?

Yeah, I have had a bunch of Muslims friends too. Good people, but I know what goes on behind the scenes.

[wanna be drummer]

Negative. My answer for you is that you need to spend some time educating yourself.

Of course everyone borrows things from each other, and this is no different.

I've spent this entire school year devoted to reading about the Scientific Revolution, the development of Europe and the Middle East, from the Greek Empire up to the age of European Imperialism. If you want to dispute those facts, then please do so, I'm up for it

[wanna be drummer]

I just did. Its called 9/11

Thats one terrorist organization. Your next step would be to give more examples to represent the Islamic faith as a whole

Come back and talk to me after Iran nukes Israel in a few years.

Do you really think these Muslims you know are going to tell you anything different? You think you are getting honest answers?

Yeah, I have had a bunch of Muslims friends too. Good people, but I know what goes on behind the scenes.

Do I think my friends give honest answers? Yes. Do I believe Iran and Saudi Arabia, etc. needs to be stopped from nukes or military action against the West? Damn straight.

[DRUNK]

Actually, the one of the biggest terrorist groups in the world is Hindu (go figure), bombing the hell out of Muslim civilians

And yes, many Middle Eastern Muslims did care, but can you blame them? With our policies and our oil-money ruining their society, can you blame them for maybe not liking us too much? But again, I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are that extreme

The Hindu's have retaliated against something the Muslims began, and they are nowhere near to being anywhere near the Muslims in terms of terrorism.

Our policies? Well, our policies are what keeps this country in power, and keeps you safe. I wish you could visit these countries. Then maybe you would have an appreciation for your standard of living

[Hermit]

Only knew one. He happened to be the prick that my ex wife cheated on me with. And she is a jew-go figure that one out. But that has nothinng to do with my views. Its their views and hatred of us. Burning american flags in the street. Be carefull dude. I've trusted before and been burned big time.

I'm sorry for you that you've hurt in the past, icqyb. But your bigotry and generalized hatred for Muslims (and African Americans too, it sounds like to me) is a sign of ignorance. Your logic is flawed; you draw conclusions that are warped; and you lack any sense of clarity, discernment, or good judgment.

And if you think DRUNK is a man of good sense, you are truly awash in confusion.

DRUNK went to war as a blind Bush supporter; a flag waving, irate about 9/11 self-proclaimed American patriot. Before he enlisted in the military I disagreed with virtually all of his political points of views, but because he was willing to risk life and limb to fight for a cause he believed in, he earned my respect (for that much, anyway). And even though I oppose the war in Iraq, DRUNK did don the American uniform and served our country in combat, and for that I am grateful to him as I am to all who serve honorably in the military.. regardless of my feelings about any particular mission they may be assigned to.

The experience of going to war disillusioned DRUNK. He saw the reality of war; the brutality of war; and he lost his romantic vision of what it means to go to war. For a while he even realized that America is not above reproach and is far from being perfect. But unfortunately he returned from Iraq having traded in one ignorant and extreme point of view ("America is in every way the greatest country on earth") for another ignorant and extreme point of view ("America totally sucks and I'm moving to Europe where they've figured it all out"). He went from blindly following Bush to questioning him, which seemed like a good thing. Unfortunately he has since developed the opinion that Bush is a "genius" who has "fooled everyone", and he thinks that he alone recognizes the true brilliance of George W Bush. What further evidence does one need to know that DRUNK is not a man of good sense right now, eh?

Unfortunately, it seems, DRUNK was not made wiser by his experience in war, instead he was made even more angry and hateful than he was before he went off to war. My heart goes out to DRUNK for what I cant even imagine it was that he experienced, witnessed and did in Iraq, and for the struggles he's going through right now. I sincerely hope he's able to recover from his experience; that he's able to be healed so that his heart is not always filled with such anger and hatred; and that he finds a sense of inner peace. His generalized and irrational bigotry for all Muslims (including children, apparently) is evidence that he does not have inner peace right now.

Icqyb, I hope that you too will someday be healed of your emotional wounds and that you find inner peace. I hope that someday your anger, hatred will be replaced with a balanced, reasoned assessment of who poses a risk to you, your loved ones and your country,.. and who does not. Not every man, woman, and child who practices the religion of Islam poses a risk to you; nor does every African American man. Nor, for that matter, is every Jewish woman going to be unfaithful to their partner.. like yours unfortunately was to you.

Its pretty ironic that while you decry what you perceive (and misperceive) as other people being racist, at the very same time you openly proclaim your own racist beliefs and feelings. What's up with that, brother? You oppose Obama not based on his personal character or his qualifications, but rather because you mistakenly believe him to be a Muslim, and because he's African American. You cling to beliefs and attitudes about race and religion that wiser Americans.. and wiser people of the world at large.. are consciously trying to shed and move beyond. You sir, are a perpetuator of hatred, something the world needs less of not more of. Imho.

And btw,.. fwiw, I support peoples' right to burn the American flag. Does that make me an enemy of the state in your eyes? Imho, flag burning is a form of free speech, and I support peoples' right to freely express themselves in non-violent, non-harmful ways. I support peoples' right to burn the American flag every bit as much as I support your right to freely express your bigoted and hateful points of view and beliefs.

In my experience, the degree to which people feel hate is proportional to the degree to which they feel hurt. Clearly you feel very hurt, and for that you have my sympathy and empathy. I am truly sorry that you've had the negative, frightening personal experiences that you've had. I hope that you find relief from your suffering and from your hatred. I sincerely hope that your heart and spirit will mend some day. It is possible. It can happen today.. it can even happen right now.. this very moment.. if you choose it.

Peace to you, friend.

For the sake of ending this post on thread topic:

Go Obama!!

[wanna be drummer]

True, but the Hindu organizations are trying to keep up with them, you can be sure of that.

And yes our policies keep us in power, but they shouldn't limit innocent civilians to lives of destitude and slavery.

[icantquityoubabe]

I've spent this entire school year devoted to reading about the Scientific Revolution, the development of Europe and the Middle East, from the Greek Empire up to the age of European Imperialism. If you want to dispute those facts, then please do so, I'm up for it

Ah we have an expert here based on a year of high school. I have a college degree. I sure that it doesnt mean shit to you though. You and that other asshole that left christianity and called me and Drunk names like you accuse me of. Drunk is right. They are planning to get us any way they can. By poisoning our water, or bombing us. Sending some kamakaze type fanatic into a shopping center with bombs strapped to them. you dont know your ass from a hole in the ground. A guy like Drunk is lucky to be alive like another friend of mine who was injured fighting these religious fanatics. But your high school teacher probablly has told you to watch out for people like us.

[wanna be drummer]

Ah we have an expert here based on a year of high school. I have a college degree. I sure that it doesnt mean shit to you though. You and that other asshole that left christianity and called me and Drunk names like you accuse me of. Drunk is right. They are planning to get us any way they can. By poisoning our water, or bombing us. Sending some kamakaze type fanatic into a shopping center with bombs strapped to them. you dont know your ass from a hole in the ground. A guy like Drunk is lucky to be alive like another friend of mine who was injured fighting these religious fanatics. But your high school teacher probablly has told you to watch out for people like us.

And what degree is it in?

And where, pray tell, am I calling you names that equal anything you've called me?

And I never left Christianity, I'm a devout Catholic.

And my high school teacher is a Republican (one of the few). He supports the war, so no your wrong, keep guessing.

You've yet to be right about anything. Come back and talk to me when you've developed that thesis we were talking about