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gibsonfan159

Why Zep Were Never Truly Recreated

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2 hours ago, Mithril46 said:

Well, one seemingly obscure point is actually VERY important in trying to recreate Zeppelin. Live the band was only 

metronomic if they had to be. Instead the band would have each member at least be kind of playing across another,

so even a standard opener like R'n'R could  sound a bit different from night to night. This is one reason Zep's boots

are so popular. Although from 77' on in particular the band sometimes sounded disjointed or disorganized. So IMHO

I have never heard any Zep tribute band get the controlled chaos right. So in most instances Zep was putting out

a living, breathing, artistic statement live. So you can't put this stuff in a can, or bottle it up.

I call it elastic timekeeping...or as John Paul Jones would put it, Zeppelin Time.

The music of Led Zeppelin, particularly in concert, ebbed and flowed. It throbbed precisely because of their elastic treatment of time.

Practically every other hard rock/metal band played strictly 4/4 martial beats, with the drummer playing with machine-like precision. Even if the time signature switched to something other than 4/4, the unceasing hammering of the drummer still gave the music a plodding, macho nature.

These bands played like a teenage boy fucking...bam bam bam bam.

Led Zeppelin, thanks to Bonzo playing with the beat, sometimes playing on the one, other times laying back, but always in the pocket, had a feminine power to their music. Their music crested and receded in waves, like a woman's orgasm.

You can't teach that. You can't sample it. You can't xerox it.

In short, you can't recreate alchemy.

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Posted (edited)

The first track from their first album, "GTBT".... I can't say I've ever heard anything like that. The musical chemistry and alchemy of that performance, I don't see that in any song that came before.

That just happened with these four guys.

You just can't will that to happen, or force it to happen.

It just was what it was.... The Magik of Led Zeppelin.

Uncopiable. Unique.

We knew it.

And they knew it.

 

 

Edited by The Rover

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On 3/10/2018 at 3:56 PM, anniemouse said:

If we are using The Beatles and Led Zeppelin as our default position then influences are as follows;

The Beatles : Skiffle, folk, R&B, Girl vocal groups, country, rock n roll, then later psychedelia, Indian folk, Baroque, modern classical, blues, pop.

LZ: Folk, Blues R&B, Rock n Roll, Funk, dance psychedeila, Indian and Arabic rhythms, classical.

Both had labels that for the most part let them experiment, good production were interested in art and movies.

In both cases this openness to new ideas and music fed into their talent and they grew as writers and performers.

I can only image how much more restriction artists have now with the money men wanting to replicate previous successes.

In both cases they became successful by being different. Now you have to fit in somewhere.  

This is probably the most succinct explanation.

Its been done post zep. The Clash did it.

They went from aping the sex pistols in 76 to putting out albums in 79-82 that had more eclecticism than most 40 yr bands have in a career.

But the OP probably meant within the safe confines of classic rock sounding or something. Yea its hard. All your influences had been heard already. T-Bone/BGuy -> Hendrix is easier than Vhalen/Hendrix -> anyone now. You dive bomb or tap now and boom we know where that came from. You use a slide in a medieval/metal context, thats probably from Ritchie Blackmore. etc Just refering to sound, and excusing the songwriting aspect.

Im generally amazed when people get seduced by the retro bands that get the sound down (the gretafleet, wolfmother types) but cant actually write anything original/great/good/passable/decent/un-crabby.

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I would add Bowie into my list but he seemed to have more issues with management and record labels. Also he changed musicians and producers constantly. I do think song writing is important.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Charles J. White said:

And this:

 

 

Damn, looks like I'm going down this rabbit hole. How have I never of them?

Edit: "The Tea Party is a Canadian rock band with blues, progressive rock, Indian and Middle Eastern influences, dubbed "Moroccan roll" by the media." And I just saw the guitarist using a bow on his guitar lol. They're not even hiding it.

Edited by gibsonfan159

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Rival Sons are in my trinity of bands that were badass.  RS have that similar swagger of Zep, except that RS have a better edit button on their music.  I follow and have met some of the Rival Sons.  Although I was not a big fan of their last album.  They are the real deal.  Are they like Zep.  Yes and no.  They take the improv element of Zep on their live shows.

 

 

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Well each to their own. Rival Sons and some other bands of that ilk, there is still that sense of very self-consciously at

some points basically taking a Page riff and dropping off one note, and so on.. Look, many will say Soundgarden was

able to channel some Zep, but really they had their own ideas and Chris Cornell had many non cock-rock lyrics despite

some Plantisms, vocally. It's been said a million times, but Zep had four total virtuosos having at least some grasp

of possibly dozens of styles. Despite the odd trainwreck,etc., to this day there isn't any hard rock or metal band that has never played the same song the same way twice. Iron Maiden, no, Slayer,no, Metallica,no, Korn, no. Some of these groups

could be very powerful live, but apart from the guitar solos, the arrangements are 90% + studio arrangement.

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Posted (edited)

Seems to me that Jimmy promises a lot when it comes to new recordings and hardly ever follows through. It's been over 10 years since that event and he's done nothing but remastering since and make a movie with The Edge and Jack Black. I know there was a time when they were seriously looking at replacing Plant, but it never worked out. From the get go Jimmy was the driving force behind Zeppelin; the first album and most of the second was down to him. Plant became equal to Jimmy in the creative process but I still think that Jimmy had a vision of the direction that the band should go in which was not always the same as plant's. So, it seems. they compromised and some wonderful songs were released from that teamwork as a result. Then comes ITTOD which, in my humble opinion, is dross. I'm Gonna Crawl is the only highlight for me. I read that after the record was released that Jimmy said to Bonzo that their next record would be a return to a harder rock sound, so it's fairly clear that Jimmy wasn't too happy about ITTOD.

Where am I going with this? When it was clear that Robert would not return and after the auditions were done, Jimmy could have formed a new band, with new members and maybe called it The New Yardbirds as a link to the past but with little connection to Zeppelin except right at the very start. Jimmy favors a harder rock sound with, perhaps, some more esoteric stuff, so I believe that he could have setup a band and molded that into the band he envisaged just like he did with Zeppelin all those years ago. It would have been HIS band, the decision making would be his. The choice of direction would be his. If other members were able to contribute acceptable songs then all the better. Jimmy wanted Robert, he was not able to get Robert so he seemed to sit on his hands and trundle through years when he could have created something new and exciting, not so much as a Led Zeppelin II but more of a Yardbirds II, playing rock and blues music which seems to be Jimmy's love. Maybe it's too late now but I see it as a chance missed that Jimmy was never able to give his creative duties another go round.

Edited by Jukkin

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3 hours ago, Jukkin said:

Seems to me that Jimmy promises a lot when it comes to new recordings and hardly ever follows through. It's been over 10 years since that event and he's done nothing but remastering since and make a movie with The Edge and Jack Black. I know there was a time when they were seriously looking at replacing Plant, but it never worked out. From the get go Jimmy was the driving force behind Zeppelin; the first album and most of the second was down to him. Plant became equal to Jimmy in the creative process but I still think that Jimmy had a vision of the direction that the band should go in which was not always the same as plant's. So, it seems. they compromised and some wonderful songs were released from that teamwork as a result. Then comes ITTOD which, in my humble opinion, is dross. I'm Gonna Crawl is the only highlight for me. I read that after the record was released that Jimmy said to Bonzo that their next record would be a return to a harder rock sound, so it's fairly clear that Jimmy wasn't too happy about ITTOD.

Where am I going with this? When it was clear that Robert would not return and after the auditions were done, Jimmy could have formed a new band, with new members and maybe called it The New Yardbirds as a link to the past but with little connection to Zeppelin except right at the very start. Jimmy favors a harder rock sound with, perhaps, some more esoteric stuff, so I believe that he could have setup a band and molded that into the band he envisaged just like he did with Zeppelin all those years ago. It would have been HIS band, the decision making would be his. The choice of direction would be his. If other members were able to contribute acceptable songs then all the better. Jimmy wanted Robert, he was not able to get Robert so he seemed to sit on his hands and trundle through years when he could have created something new and exciting, not so much as a Led Zeppelin II but more of a Yardbirds II, playing rock and blues music which seems to be Jimmy's love. Maybe it's too late now but I see it as a chance missed that Jimmy was never able to give his creative duties another go round.

Let's face it, Page lost his core creative spark in the late 70s. The acoustic folksy/hard rock hybrid, mystical fairytale stuff is what enamored so many Zep fans and he almost completely abandoned that persona. I guess he felt it was time to grow up musically, but man did he flop throughout the 80s. But so did a lot of the other 70s rock groups. It's hard to believe that someone who could cast such a spell over people with his creativity in the 60s and 70s suddenly could barely tap into something remotely interesting the next decade, and then give up completely. Maybe he was only really able to tap into it with the other three? Maybe he got tired of playing the damn guitar?

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11 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Let's face it, Page lost his core creative spark in the late 70s. The acoustic folksy/hard rock hybrid, mystical fairytale stuff is what enamored so many Zep fans and he almost completely abandoned that persona. I guess he felt it was time to grow up musically, but man did he flop throughout the 80s. But so did a lot of the other 70s rock groups. It's hard to believe that someone who could cast such a spell over people with his creativity in the 60s and 70s suddenly could barely tap into something remotely interesting the next decade, and then give up completely. Maybe he was only really able to tap into it with the other three? Maybe he got tired of playing the damn guitar?

Are you high?  "Page/Coverdale" was a fantastic record and some very serious guitar playing from Jimmy!

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46 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Let's face it, Page lost his core creative spark in the late 70s. The acoustic folksy/hard rock hybrid, mystical fairytale stuff is what enamored so many Zep fans and he almost completely abandoned that persona. I guess he felt it was time to grow up musically, but man did he flop throughout the 80s. But so did a lot of the other 70s rock groups. It's hard to believe that someone who could cast such a spell over people with his creativity in the 60s and 70s suddenly could barely tap into something remotely interesting the next decade, and then give up completely. Maybe he was only really able to tap into it with the other three? Maybe he got tired of playing the damn guitar?

I think "he was only really able to tap into it with the other three". Which to me, is totally understandable, and in a way, even more special. And, lets not forget the importance of Peter Grant to Page (in particular) and Led Zeppelin as an entity. In other words: he couldn't have tapped into it without the other four.B)

 

 

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When people/fans say Page was the leader of Zep, it's not at all comparable to Jagger/Richards or Lennon/ McCartney. The very beginning, sure, Page paid for production etc. for Zep 1, and Jimmy quite aggressively sought out the other

band members. But Jimmy's default personality is shy and withdrawn, and I don't think he would have had such deep

control over almost all Zep creative decisions without Grant in his corner. And the other three Zeps were indispensable

to Zep's commercial and artistic success. If you know about how Page was perceived before Zep, he was excellent but

not yet a Beck, Clapton, or Hendrix. And here is my biggest disappointment.....others may share this. Despite the drugs and

frailty, I really thought that Jimmy was going to have some real Aces up his sleeve. Well DWII had some cool segments. But it also seemed apparent that Jimmy had a hard time hooking up with musicians of his own caliber, like he did with Zep.

In Zep, Jimmy didn't have to coach each member endlessly. I'm not sure how many fans know this. Here and there Page 

may be directing some point, but even so there is scant evidence of this on any studio boot. In many famous bands you

have one or two members literally forcing songs thru, regardless what the others think. Page himself mentioned some

songs or ideas that the other Zeps' rejected. Then another point..... Jimmy has to have the guitar in his hands a certain

amount, he is a great talent but it's rather clear he's not one of those musos who need little maintenance.to play cleanly.

I do feel a minor tragedy that he apparently isn't an active musician anymore. But just like the opiate addiction, Jimmy

may have hand issues and he simply doesn't like to talk about his weaknesses. Oh Well.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Stryder1978 said:

Are you high?  "Page/Coverdale" was a fantastic record and some very serious guitar playing from Jimmy!

That was 90s. Im talking The Firm, Outrider, and whatever guest appearances or charity events he was doing. Jimmy went from the coolest musician on stage to almost irrelevant in a few years. His 90s stuff was pretty good though and I even liked Clarksdale.

Edited by gibsonfan159

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Well, check the Outrider boots. Pretty good. 90's, especially later, some shows the phoenix has risen from the dead.. Yes,

that good, some shows in fact more consistently excellent than many Zep shows.

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3 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Let's face it, Page lost his core creative spark in the late 70s. The acoustic folksy/hard rock hybrid, mystical fairytale stuff is what enamored so many Zep fans and he almost completely abandoned that persona. I guess he felt it was time to grow up musically, but man did he flop throughout the 80s. But so did a lot of the other 70s rock groups. It's hard to believe that someone who could cast such a spell over people with his creativity in the 60s and 70s suddenly could barely tap into something remotely interesting the next decade, and then give up completely. Maybe he was only really able to tap into it with the other three? Maybe he got tired of playing the damn guitar?

Judging from his music on the Page/Coverdale project and his playing with Plant later in the 90's obviously you were wrong.

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45 minutes ago, Stryder1978 said:

Judging from his music on the Page/Coverdale project and his playing with Plant later in the 90's obviously you were wrong.

No, I definitely think I'm still right. Nothing he has ever done post 1979 is as near creative and well crafted. The Coverdale/Page stuff had some good musicianship, but it's all still forgettable. Like I said, he lost that core creative spark that allowed him to truly captivate the public with original music. It was mostly downhill for Page after Zep, with only a couple of noticeable tunes.

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3 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

No, I definitely think I'm still right. Nothing he has ever done post 1979 is as near creative and well crafted. The Coverdale/Page stuff had some good musicianship, but it's all still forgettable. Like I said, he lost that core creative spark that allowed him to truly captivate the public with original music. It was mostly downhill for Page after Zep, with only a couple of noticeable tunes.

I think the creative spark to move forward was lost. For me that's no biggie. Rather than move forward Jimmy could have returned to his roots and put more emphasis on his blues rock days (Yardbirds) and early Zep. Jimmy took control of the first album and the second. This was not overseen or enable by Grant, Jimmy knew exactly what he wanted and went for it. He could have resisted the feeling that he had to carry on from, say, Physical Graffiti and, like you say, he didn't have the muse anymore but I do think that a 180 back to the early days which he seemingly felt a bond with could have been the right move for him - look at Jeff Beck, he still does what he does best and, I guess, is happy doing that. I do think that Jimmy should have had a bit more confidence and got his mojo back before he got too old.

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9 minutes ago, Jukkin said:

Rather than move forward Jimmy could have returned to his roots and put more emphasis on his blues rock days (Yardbirds) and early Zep. 

Outrider?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Outrider?

Yeah but since? He should have formed a new band took them where he wanted to go. He had nothing to prove, he could have just had some fun and enjoyed the music. The thing with The Firm and with Coverdale is that he did not have control and so had to 'fit in'. If he'd taken the step of forming a new band, on his terms, he may well have put out some good stuff over the years and tour without being worried about Robert stitching him up like he did the last time - Asia and Australasia.

Edited by Jukkin

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16 hours ago, Stryder1978 said:

Judging from his music on the Page/Coverdale project and his playing with Plant later in the 90's obviously you were wrong.

Agreed. Fantastic playing, particularly in 98

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25 minutes ago, Xolo1974 said:

Agreed. Fantastic playing, particularly in 98

Some gigs he sounded better than he did with Zeppelin.  I also liked some of his playing with the Crows as well!

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1 hour ago, Xolo1974 said:

Agreed. Fantastic playing, particularly in 98

Playing. I'm talking creativity.

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Creativity isn't an endless Fountain. Jimmy Page is largely responsible for one of the greatest back catalogues in the history of recorded music, it was inevitable that the songs would dry up eventually. It's happened to pretty much every one from John Lennon to Miles Davis.

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Any fule kno it was Anger's Curse of King Midas wot dunnit...  :whistling:

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