Barney Hoskyns book

[zep41]

For the record, this is the best Zeppelin book I have read. And I've pretty much read most of them.

My opinion on the Page thing is that you need to look at these comments for what they are - just comments about one thing during one day or one time or one place. That's all they are. Is/was Page a spoiled brat? Of course he was -- he was the leader of the biggest band in the world and his ego was even bigger. Does everyone have good/bad qualities? Of course.

Think about how analyzed every single move Page makes has been. Everything he says, does, looks at, moves towards, reacts to, etc etc -- is analyzed. I was thinking "geez, what if that was done with me?" I've had my moments of being a prick, and I've had my moments of being someone people can enjoy being around. Really, isnt that just anyone? NOW. To think that pretty much everything I do in public or around friends would be documented and analyzed in a book 30-40 years later -- man I honestly can say that if you put some quotes in there i might even come off as worse than Jimmy! (though I have never ever spat at someone!)

I'm just saying that it's probably true -- but we arent looking at Jimmy Page the human being. Look at him as a human being and compare him to other people you know. Or think -- if you were him how would you act in that situation?

My personal opinion is that Page was not great, but not horrible. I think on drugs he seemed awful. But he was a spoiled brat who expected control over everything that he had an opportunity to control. He was a prick sometimes, but a decent guy other times. He's very human, but he's also very private about that.

And in my opinion, the smoking in the car thing -- they were both jerks about it. Just as easily as Page could have respected the guy's wishes, the guy also could have not been a sissy about it and just dealt with a little bit of smoke and rolled his windows down and not made a bigger deal about it than it needed to be. This is a classic case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

[truth and beauty]

Wonderful and well written review, Truth.

Thanks so much, Shadecatcher - really looking forward to reading more of your comments on it !

I just read this over and realized it sounds like an 8th graders book report. I enjoyed the book and learned a great deal about LZ and the music business.

I am still all about their music (and Robert's hair). Forgive me for being so shallow...

I didn't find your comments shallow: they seemed very heartfelt. I think the book can evoke strong feelings and sympathies which take you beyond the gossipy tone of the contributors. For me, this is a story which, in outline, ought to provoke distaste.... but instead it seems to conjure a sense of compassion and humility.

[Shadecatcher]

Having read the entire book now, I’m struck with admiration for Hoskyn’s talent as a writer. This articulate and energetic book carries the reader through the stages of a band in its time, warts and all. In a seamless flow of conversation, those who were part of the Led Zep machine chronicle their interactions with the band, in many cases with great affection and sometimes with regret.

In terms of who is included in this book and who is not, the scale is tipped in favour of the people who surrounded Plant, Page, Jones and Bonham in the public arena. Hoskyn’s presentation of the menacing thugs, dark mood and destruction that surrounded the band, particularly during their ’77 tour, was gripping and in stark contrast to their first American tour. Against this, comments by groupies seem pale and almost insignificant. I had a laugh when Hoskyn’s let a glaring error by Lori Mattix stand. If she got a simple, well-known fact wrong, what else did she get wrong? I didn't find Benji as vitriolic as some have mentioned on this thread.

I don't think Hoskyn favoured Plant over Page as some people here suggest. The images they individually project stem from their personalities: Plant is outgoing and Page is private. Plant seems able to maneuver around uncomfortable questions with more finesse than Page who too often repeats rehearsed statements. Certainly drugs and drink took a huge toll on Page and this book leaves no doubt that he was in serious, life-threatening trouble toward the end of the band’s run.

This book would have benefited greatly from the inclusion of the band’s families past and present. Rather than invade privacy, I think their perspectives would have added much to the backstory of life in and outside that band. It wasn’t just the four members of Zeppelin who lived in a cocoon of fame and excess, their families lived through that with them. I can’t think that Hoskyn didn’t try to gain their trust and participation in preparing this biography. As it stands, this book is a substantial resource, particularly for someone like me who knew virtually nothing but the music.

There were a few one-liners and statements that struck me as new here. For example, did anyone know that Page's parents divorced and that he had to accommodate their two families separately? This doesn't have any relevance to anyone but him, so I was surprised to read his comment about this private event in his life.

The format of this book allows the reader to get a feel for the evolution of the band and everyone surrounding them over time. It also allows you to see who is venting and who is objective. I asked myself more than a few times while reading this book why people put up with some of the treatment they received. Would you wait a day and a half at Grant’s house for him to appear for a meeting? Would you deliver children to school and clean up after pets if you are a tour manager or technician? There is much made of how insolated and insular their lives were and still are. But do you loose your sense of self-respect, compassion and integrity if your first 20 years are spent in a normal family?

There are hints but no revelations about serious issues between Page and Plant that dominate to this day. The change in their relationship begins as drugs take hold of Page and Plant experiences life-changing events. Bonham slides away further into drink as the pressures mount. The only calm in the storm seems to be Jones. Grant starts out flying by the seat of his pants, making up the rules as he establishes the Atlantic deal and the American tours. As he succumbs to drugs, his paranoia attracts dubious characters and the troubles begin to mount. When Bonham dies, the wheels of the machine screech to a halt as everyone retreats to their corners and hunkers down in confusion and disbelief. It is impossible to imagine how this band, with all their tensions and problems, would have been able to fly the flag much longer if he had not died.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Shadecatcher

[missytootsweet]

This book would have benefited greatly from the inclusion of the band’s families past and present. Rather than invade privacy, I think their perspectives would have added much to the backstory of life in and outside that band. It wasn’t just the four members of Zeppelin who lived in a cocoon of fame and excess, their families lived through that with them. I can’t think that Hoskyn didn’t try to gain their trust and participation in preparing this biography.

Gaining the families trust for the purpose of airing family dramas/events/feelings for the world to see in print would sort of defeat the purpose. In my opinion, it would be invading their privacy unless some family members voiced a desire to express certain memories, comments, etc.

There are hints but no revelations about serious issues between Page and Plant that dominate to this day.

What serious issues between Page and Plant dominate to this day? Would you please elaborate or back this up with a source.

Grant starts out flying by the seat of his pants, making up the rules as he establishes the Atlantic deal and the American tours.

In my opinion Peter Grant was a smart, perhaps some might say shrewd manager who had plenty of experience in the buisness prior to managing his biggest act. The moves and decisions he made on behalf of the band were calculated and always made with an eye on furthering the band's career. Personally, I do not see Peter Grant as ever "flying by the seat of his pants" when it came to managing the band's affairs.

When Bonham dies, the wheels of the machine screech to a halt as everyone retreats to their corners and hunkers down in confusion and disbelief. It is impossible to imagine how this band, with all their tensions and problems, would have been able to fly the flag much longer if he had not died.

Well, no one will ever know what could have been had the world not lost John. Any comment/opinion on that is pure speculation, including my own. But is is not impossible at all to imagine the band going forward had we been blessed to have John Bonham still with us. I've read from more than one source that the band was looking very much forward to doing the follow-up to ITTOD. And by the band, I mean John Bonham was looking forward to their next project too. I think imo, they could have gone on as long as they all wanted to. Missy

[Lambeau Leap]

Gaining the families trust for the purpose of airing family dramas/events/feelings for the world to see in print would sort of defeat the purpose. In my opinion, it would be invading their privacy unless some family members voiced a desire to express certain memories, comments, etc.

What serious issues between Page and Plant dominate to this day? Would you please elaborate or back this up with a source.

In my opinion Peter Grant was a smart, perhaps some might say shrewd manager who had plenty of experience in the buisness prior to managing his biggest act. The moves and decisions he made on behalf of the band were calculated and always made with an eye on furthering the band's career. Personally, I do not see Peter Grant as ever "flying by the seat of his pants" when it came to managing the band's affairs.

Well, no one will ever know what could have been had the world not lost John. Any comment/opinion on that is pure speculation, including my own. But is is not impossible at all to imagine the band going forward had we been blessed to have John Bonham still with us. I've read from more than one source that the band was looking very much forward to doing the follow-up to ITTOD. And by the band, I mean John Bonham was looking forward to their next project too. I think imo, they could have gone on as long as they all wanted to. Missy

First off, Shadecatcher's take or impression of the book is spot on IMO, fantastic review by her. Have you read the book Missy?

As for anything between Page & Plant, Hoskyn's or someone in the book mentions their being a big elephant in the room between Robert & Jimmy that never gets discussed. Is it blowing off Karac's funeral, sobriety issues, or does Robert blame Jimmy for Bonham's death? All heavy stuff and speculation of course, and they have worked together since and seem very cordial and respectful toward each other in public. But I wonder if if the two have ever had a candid no holds barred discussion about the tragic events that culminated in John's passing and ultimately the end of Led Zeppelin as we knew it.

[Reggie29]

If some of the responses and speculation on this thread are anything to go by, there seems to be quite a few questions raised as much as some were answered in the book?

Given Hoskyns' background is journalism it's to be expected that there will be a certain amount of sensationalistic writing, you know the "juicy bits", that from the sound of it not many (of which we didn't already know), were revealed at all.

I am curious if there is anything actually written about the musical process in and around the studio. How the songs came about and the different studio techniques et cetera employed by Jimmy, and how JPJ's arrangements materialised from LZI until ITTOD and everything else up to and including Celebration Day.

Here's a tip, not all drunks and junkies are arseholes but they all have the potential to be them and that is what I would like to know in honest terms, how those conditions and behaviours impacted on Led Zeppelin and everyone around them, not just all the sordid details.

Like when the health problems were widely known and what effect they had on the sessions and the band itself, creatively, without dwelling on the same old trotted out sex, drugs and booze garbage.

It appears on face value that it's almost gossiplike and frankly those narratives leave me cold and are dull, boring and an opinion can easily be disguised and backed up by the number of similar answers given by the interviewees to corroborate good or bad that opinion or line of thought.

What is surprising though, are the examples of obvious bad attitude and behaviour that is almost considered as acceptable and even condoned just because it was Led Zeppelin and / or Peter Grant.

To be quite honest, I'm in no hurry to read the book, maybe if I see it a bargain bin.

If it happens, it happens, if not no loss.....

It's not as if the band is missing out on any royalties!

Until the day comes when one of the surviving members publishes a tell all biography, most of the second hand information will remain just that, second hand and the rest one sided and in some instances, jaded recollections.

I know all I need to know about Led Zeppein from what I've read and heard before but mostly through their music, from the very start it was all that mattered to them and it's all that mattered to me.

The rest as they say is, history.

[LedZebedee]

I've been following this thread for a while and the urge to buy this book is almost overwhelming! Just worried it might have the same effect on me as when I read The Lives of John Lennon by Albert Goldman ie seeing one of my biggest musical heroes being ripped to shreds and exposed as a thoroughly nasty piece of work!

I read and thoroughly enjoyed the Stephen Davis, Richard Cole and Mick Wall books for what they were - juicy, salacious gossip and not necessarily the gospel truth, but the fact all the quotes in this book are from former associates/employees who were actually there make it a different ball game from the usual muck-raking!

Just logging onto Amazon now!

Edited January 15, 2013 by LedZebedee

[Shadecatcher]

I've been following this thread for a while and the urge to buy this book is almost overwhelming! Just worried it might have the same effect on me as when I read The Lives of John Lennon by Albert Goldman ie seeing one of my biggest musical heroes being ripped to shreds and exposed as a thoroughly nasty piece of work!

I read and thoroughly enjoyed the Stephen Davis, Richard Cole and Mick Wall books for what they were - juicy, salacious gossip and not necessarily the gospel truth, but the fact all the quotes in this book are from former associates/employees who were actually there make it a different ball game from the usual muck-raking!

Just logging onto Amazon now!

I didn't even finish the Wall book. I didn't like his style or format and it felt sensational. Hoskyn by comparison is a balanced and well thought out work that attempts to look at the band's history, the creative energy that focused it, and how the rigors of the road and pressure to maintain performance and recording quality impacted on the individual members.

As for what's backed up or fully explained, beyond what is printed in this book you'd have to research. I'm not inclined because whatever is between Page and Plant is their issue and I can't think they'd publicly air their POVs. I didn't suggest that those closest to the band personally should disclose private information, but provide a perspective from inside of the maelstrom that was swirling around the band. What LZ experienced deeply affected their lives.

It took a very short time for LZ to capture widespread attention once they started touring the States and that would have triggered a huge shift in their lives professionally and personally. I got the impression they could move about more freely in England but their increased profile in the States required long tours and pressure to constantly create new material. Continued and constant expectations from fans and their business was great. A person can only take so much, and with this in mind, we view how they took available releases in sex, drugs and tossing TVs from windows. That said, most people have moral compasses and a sense of reason that informs their behaviour. At some point, no matter how compromised you might be, you stand back from beating someone up, believing you are entitled and treating people badly, and pushing your body to the brink of death, or your mate or a loved one pulls you over and reads you the riot act. Grant may have been a mastermind at driving the band to succeed and care about the guys personally, but he wasn't able to cope with the drug and drink problems and became part of it. Both Bonham and Page were addicts in 1980 and that, combined with the rift that had developed between members of the band, had nothing to do with whether they wanted to continue making music, but whether they physically could carry on IMO.

Page has said many times it was and is all about the music and it is no secret he wanted their music to bring them fame and success. Reasonable enough, yet ironically the trappings of the very fame he worked for eventually stopped the music. Be careful what you wish for.

[Shadecatcher]

First off, Shadecatcher's take or impression of the book is spot on IMO, fantastic review by her. Have you read the book Missy? As for anything between Page & Plant, Hoskyn's or someone in the book mentions their being a big elephant in the room between Robert & Jimmy that never gets discussed. Is it blowing off Karac's funeral, sobriety issues, or does Robert blame Jimmy for Bonham's death? All heavy stuff and speculation of course, and they have worked together since and seem very cordial and respectful toward each other in public. But I wonder if if the two have ever had a candid no holds barred discussion about the tragic events that culminated in John's passing and ultimately the end of Led Zeppelin as we knew it.

Gee thanks Lambeau. This is not a jab at the English; I know whereof I speak being part of an English family. Deep feelings, especially anything embarrassing or complex, is often repressed and swept under the carpet. It may eventually come out when something triggers those pent up emotions, but generally it is thought to be impolite to cause anyone discomfort or unease.

[LedZebedee]

I didn't even finish the Wall book. I didn't like his style or format and it felt sensational. Hoskyn by comparison is a balanced and well thought out work that attempts to look at the band's history, the creative energy that focused it, and how the rigors of the road and pressure to maintain performance and recording quality impacted on the individual members.

I liked the Wall book as I'm British and used to his sensationalist style having read his reviews for the past 25 years. He also met Jimmy Page several times in the 80s and interviewed him so did have a bit of inside knowledge. However I would not want another re-hash of the same old story i've heard a million times so that's why this book appeals - can't wait to read it!

[Lambeau Leap]

If some of the responses and speculation on this thread are anything to go by, there seems to be quite a few questions raised as much as some were answered in the book?

Given Hoskyns' background is journalism it's to be expected that there will be a certain amount of sensationalistic writing, you know the "juicy bits", that from the sound of it not many (of which we didn't already know), were revealed at all.

I am curious if there is anything actually written about the musical process in and around the studio. How the songs came about and the different studio techniques et cetera employed by Jimmy, and how JPJ's arrangements materialised from LZI until ITTOD and everything else up to and including Celebration Day.

Here's a tip, not all drunks and junkies are arseholes but they all have the potential to be them and that is what I would like to know in honest terms, how those conditions and behaviours impacted on Led Zeppelin and everyone around them, not just all the sordid details.

Like when the health problems were widely known and what effect they had on the sessions and the band itself, creatively, without dwelling on the same old trotted out sex, drugs and booze garbage.

It appears on face value that it's almost gossiplike and frankly those narratives leave me cold and are dull, boring and an opinion can easily be disguised and backed up by the number of similar answers given by the interviewees to corroborate good or bad that opinion or line of thought.

What is surprising though, are the examples of obvious bad attitude and behaviour that is almost considered as acceptable and even condoned just because it was Led Zeppelin and / or Peter Grant.

To be quite honest, I'm in no hurry to read the book, maybe if I see it a bargain bin.

If it happens, it happens, if not no loss.....

It's not as if the band is missing out on any royalties!

Until the day comes when one of the surviving members publishes a tell all biography, most of the second hand information will remain just that, second hand and the rest one sided and in some instances, jaded recollections.

I know all I need to know about Led Zeppein from what I've read and heard before but mostly through their music, from the very start it was all that mattered to them and it's all that mattered to me.

The rest as they say is, history.

There is plenty written about the musical process and how these albums came to being. Plenty of detailed accounts of all the Zeppelin sound engineers, Glynn and Andy Johns, Eddie Kramer and so forth backed up by conversations of the band members and the different instruments and techniques they used. Easily, one of my favorite parts of the book by far.

You're doing yourself a great disservice if you're bypassing this book by reading a few gossipy takes of the book and forming an opinion of the book off of that. This is far from a sleazy Richard Cole book, not even close actually.

[Shadecatcher]

I liked the Wall book as I'm British and used to his sensationalist style having read his reviews for the past 25 years. He also met Jimmy Page several times in the 80s and interviewed him so did have a bit of inside knowledge. However I would not want another re-hash of the same old story i've heard a million times so that's why this book appeals - can't wait to read it!

Interesting perspective from across the pond on the Wall book. A flag went up for me when in Wall's introduction he outlined the conditions for interviewing Page. Not sure if this was the book where the author was threatened with legal action if certain people and situations were mentioned, but I had the overwhelming sense in reading the book that it was very carefully edited to accommodate Page. Just my assessment and opinion.

[Melcórë]

Now that I have the book, and have read (parts) of it...I can honestly say that this is the best book about Led Zeppelin that I've ever read.

I can also say that I still have a critical/skeptical eye over sections of the text - particularly from those people who have biggest axes to grind, so to speak. That being said...I honestly feel like a lot of people were making the book out to be much darker than it actually is - I've read part of the beginning, and nearly all of the end (1977-1980, and on), and while it was definitely bad, it seems like it was bad for everyone. I'm genuinely hurt by the notion that they were trying to make it work, but Bonzo couldn't be stopped from his self-destructive path...

[Shadecatcher]

Now that I have the book, and have read (parts) of it...I can honestly say that this is the best book about Led Zeppelin that I've ever read.

I can also say that I still have a critical/skeptical eye over sections of the text - particularly from those people who have biggest axes to grind, so to speak. That being said...I honestly feel like a lot of people were making the book out to be much darker than it actually is - I've read part of the beginning, and nearly all of the end (1977-1980, and on), and while it was definitely bad, it seems like it was bad for everyone. I'm genuinely hurt by the notion that they were trying to make it work, but Bonzo couldn't be stopped from his self-destructive path...

Agreed, I didn't find the book dark. It wasn't only Bonham who was set on a self-destructive path, though. That's why my impression is that even if he hadn't died, the band may not have been able to continue much longer. It's a shame no one who lived through those days with them couldn't effectively intervene, but addicts (including alcoholics) have to accept help and want to change for help to have any effect. It doesn't seem like the atmosphere toward the end was conducive to changing the situation.

[Melcórë]

Agreed, I didn't find the book dark. It wasn't only Bonham who was set on a self-destructive path, though. That's why my impression is that even if he hadn't died, the band may not have been able to continue much longer. It's a shame no one who lived through those days with them couldn't effectively intervene, but addicts (including alcoholics) have to accept help and want to change for help to have any effect. It doesn't seem like the atmosphere toward the end was conducive to changing the situation.

Unfortunately, I agree - but Bonham's self-destruction is what killed the band. There isn't much point in dealing with the "what ifs?" - we can't change what happened.

My point about (healthy) skepticism seems borne out by some of the contradictory claims throughout the book: One person will go on about how Plant and Page hate each other; the next quote mentions their mutual respect and love. In a sense, I feel that such contradictions actually paint a more full and complex picture of these four men and the people around them - the relationships are framed as something more real, if not ultimately "true" to their actual nature.

[Bayougal65]

For the record, this is the best Zeppelin book I have read. And I've pretty much read most of them.

My opinion on the Page thing is that you need to look at these comments for what they are - just comments about one thing during one day or one time or one place. That's all they are. Is/was Page a spoiled brat? Of course he was -- he was the leader of the biggest band in the world and his ego was even bigger. Does everyone have good/bad qualities? Of course.

Think about how analyzed every single move Page makes has been. Everything he says, does, looks at, moves towards, reacts to, etc etc -- is analyzed. I was thinking "geez, what if that was done with me?" I've had my moments of being a prick, and I've had my moments of being someone people can enjoy being around. Really, isnt that just anyone? NOW. To think that pretty much everything I do in public or around friends would be documented and analyzed in a book 30-40 years later -- man I honestly can say that if you put some quotes in there i might even come off as worse than Jimmy! (though I have never ever spat at someone!)

I'm just saying that it's probably true -- but we arent looking at Jimmy Page the human being. Look at him as a human being and compare him to other people you know. Or think -- if you were him how would you act in that situation?

My personal opinion is that Page was not great, but not horrible. I think on drugs he seemed awful. But he was a spoiled brat who expected control over everything that he had an opportunity to control. He was a prick sometimes, but a decent guy other times. He's very human, but he's also very private about that.

And in my opinion, the smoking in the car thing -- they were both jerks about it. Just as easily as Page could have respected the guy's wishes, the guy also could have not been a sissy about it and just dealt with a little bit of smoke and rolled his windows down and not made a bigger deal about it than it needed to be. This is a classic case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

Best post I have read on here in a while!

All I can say is thank goodness no one has analyzed my life under a microscope!

Edited January 17, 2013 by Bayougal65

[Melcórë]

Totally agree with zep41.

My biggest complaint with the book? It's omission (by-and-large) of the most important character: The music itself. We hear about it often enough - how loud they played, how well, but the songs themselves are so often overlooked. The best section dealing with a song, so far in my reading, has been Bigby Smith's anecdote about the recording of "Stairway."

Edited January 18, 2013 by Melcórë

[Reggie29]

Totally agree with zep41.

My biggest complaint with the book? It's omission (by-and-large) of the most important character: The music itself. We hear about it often enough - how loud they played, how well, but the songs themselves are so often overlooked. The best section dealing with a song, so far in my reading, has been Bigby Smith's anecdote about the recording of "Stairway."

Why am I not surprised!?

[crizman]

Man I gotta get this book!

[Geezer]

My biggest complaint with the book? It's omission (by-and-large) of the most important character: The music itself. We hear about it often enough - how loud they played, how well, but the songs themselves are so often overlooked. The best section dealing with a song, so far in my reading, has been Bigby Smith's anecdote about the recording of "Stairway."

This is a biographic work, not a critical review.

[Dallas Knebs]

Need a book written by LZ.com members

SAJ editor

[mielazul]

This is a biographic work, not a critical review.

I don't think there's a solid line between the two when it comes to books about artists. There shouldn't be, anyway. If you're doing a biography of a musician - especially a very important musician - you're really missing the whole point if you don't focus closely on the work they produced. When most people on this forum read a book like this, they're so knowledgeable about Led Zeppelin's music that they just fill in the blanks and it's no big deal. But I think a really good book would help a person without much knowledge to understand the music better...and understand the power of the performances, etc. With a band like Led Zeppelin, you'd end up doing some epic multi-volume work to get the story right...but I'd be happy to buy it.

Edited January 18, 2013 by mielazul

[zep41]

Totally agree with zep41.

My biggest complaint with the book? It's omission (by-and-large) of the most important character: The music itself. We hear about it often enough - how loud they played, how well, but the songs themselves are so often overlooked. The best section dealing with a song, so far in my reading, has been Bigby Smith's anecdote about the recording of "Stairway."

I would have liked to see a little bit more about the music as well. Would have provided a good balance.

And it wouldnt have been a "critical review" of the music because we would have quotes from the folks who were directly involved in the making of the music! Just a little bit more focus on that would have been very nice.

There was a quote where JPJ talks about how he thinks he should have gotten more writing credits, and that people's perception of Page and Plant going off and writing a song like Lennon/McCartney and then teaching the song to the other two members --- JPJ said "that is so far from the truth its ridiculous.' I WANNA HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT!

[Dallas Knebs]

Same. JPJ got top bill for Celebration Day.

[Percys_Plant]

Same. JPJ got top bill for Celebration Day.

Or the last names were basically being listed in alphabetical order (with Jason being last for obvious reasons).