What's With All The Hate

[rm2551]

10 hours ago, nemophilist said:

This entire mindset that someone who states something that is either quite possibly or definitely factual but isn't pleasant=hate.... could possibly be the literal end of freedom of thought, expression and ultimately consciousness. Of course not in the realm of a led zeppelin forum, but it does reflect a mindset pervading modern human society internationally.

I'm not sure the consequences are quite that drastic, but it is one of the most worrying modern trends for sure. Truth itself is at best under assault in an attempt to completely reshape it. And while in a sense it has always been so - never like it is now. At worse, we are losing something we cannot afford to lose and will pay a price unrealised and horrific if we continue.

10 hours ago, nemophilist said:

People really need to see the humorous side of things more often and stop being so impulsively sensitive.

Yes. But this tendency is exercised mainly in direct communications. When you actually speak to someone in person where different views are held, humour is the most efficient tool to explore ideas and exchange views. Forums - not so much. Another modern times problem. We best not completely forgo actual socialising for internet banter.

[76229]

6 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

At the Oakland show they (Bonham partly, but mainly Bindon et al.) roughed up one of Bill Graham's workers.  There was some bad blood before (that this guy may have played a part in) and while the situation got out of control due to the Zep side, it was hardly a horrific, brutal event.  Page himself said later, that if it was really as bad as Graham claimed (who conveniently [and illegally] signed a waiver to get the band to play the second show), Zeppelin would never have been allowed to leave the country.  The '77 tour was ugly in general, but this particular thing has been greatly exaggerated.

Seriously? Jim Matzorkis said he only found the strength to escape the trailer when he realised Bindon was going to pull one of his eyes out.

Let's not let being fans of the band obscure our view of what was a disgraceful act of violence. And an act of stupidity taking Bindon on tour in the first place. Even Cole thought it was a bad idea.

[SteveAJones]

23 minutes ago, 76229 said:

Seriously? Jim Matzorkis said he only found the strength to escape the trailer when he realised Bindon was going to pull one of his eyes out.

Let's not let being fans of the band obscure our view of what was a disgraceful act of violence. And an act of stupidity taking Bindon on tour in the first place. Even Cole thought it was a bad idea.

Horrific and brutal? Well, it's all relative I suppose but given Cole and Bindon were only charged with two counts each of assault and Grant and Bonham one count each, as opposed to higher charges I tend to believe he took a couple of beatings but neither resulted in life threatening injuries. That he was able to escape under his own power as opposed to being knocked unconscious further attests to this. We have discussed it here at length before:

 

[Brigante]

Did Bill Graham and his crew not have a reputation for intimidation and throwing their weight about?
In which case, it rings hollow when they come off worse and cry about it.
There's always someone harder than you.

[blindwillie127]

1 hour ago, Brigante said:

Did Bill Graham and his crew not have a reputation for intimidation and throwing their weight about?
In which case, it rings hollow when they come off worse and cry about it.
There's always someone harder than you.

How bout the time Grant had Cole & LZ's roadies beat the shit out of a bunch of teamsters for trying to prevent Zep's crew from working the venue? 

I love that shit! 

[nemophilist]

13 hours ago, rm2551 said:

I'm not sure the consequences are quite that drastic, but it is one of the most worrying modern trends for sure. Truth itself is at best under assault in an attempt to completely reshape it. And while in a sense it has always been so - never like it is now. At worse, we are losing something we cannot afford to lose and will pay a price unrealised and horrific if we continue.

Yes. But this tendency is exercised mainly in direct communications. When you actually speak to someone in person where different views are held, humour is the most efficient tool to explore ideas and exchange views. Forums - not so much. Another modern times problem. We best not completely forgo actual socialising for internet banter.

No doubt about that, humor is the best icebreaker. In my post I just meant not to taking things so seriously when they don't really matter that much. Coming on here is just some fun and entertainment talking about something most of us love.

Just to reply to the first part. Well when it comes to web censorship and this entire singularity movement that is being majorly funded through the defense department and silicon valley to connect/interface brains to the internet/download information directly to the mind, it certainly does become that serious. And it's not just in the US, it's pretty much international. Not saying it's for certain, just saying that those with the wealth to steer society are taking it in that direction. I just see all of these calls for censorship (not the original poster, just in general) and i'm aware of the amount of money and infrastructure being poured into what I was talking about and if censorship takes place on certain subject matters it could lead to that. Essentially any such connection could lead to that but especially with web-censorship.

[PeaceFrogYum]

12 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Horrific and brutal? Well, it's all relative I suppose but given Cole and Bindon were only charged with two counts each of assault and Grant and Bonham one count each, as opposed to higher charges I tend to believe he took a couple of beatings but neither resulted in life threatening injuries. That he was able to escape under his own power as opposed to being knocked unconscious further attests to this. We have discussed it here at length before:

 

I guess it is relative, especially if you are on the receiving end of the beating. Hard to dispute not only eye witness accounts, but also accounts from Cole himself who said hiring a former associate of both the Richardson & Cray outfits was a really bad idea. Bindon would also be charged with murder just one year later when he stabbed a man to death.

The reason Grant, Bindon, Bonham, & Cole were not arrested and held but released was one reason only...Steve Weiss. Weiss had more connections than Boss Tweed & Lucky Luciano combined.

Page & Grant were brilliant, getting people like Weiss on the payroll was pure genius.

[JohnOsbourne]

As per one of the news articles in the thread SteveAJones posted, Bonham et al. were charged with *misdemeanor* assault charges.  So it's completely defensible to view this as a roughing up, and not something more disturbing.  No one is denying that it was a bad idea to hire Bindon, or that Zep deserved the lion's share of blame here.  The issue concerns the hyperbole surrounding the incident.

[JohnOsbourne]

10 hours ago, Brigante said:

Did Bill Graham and his crew not have a reputation for intimidation and throwing their weight about?
In which case, it rings hollow when they come off worse and cry about it.
There's always someone harder than you.

Graham showed where his principles were by signing a bogus indemnification letter to allow the second show to go on.  

[gibsonfan159]

55 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Graham showed where his principles were by signing a bogus indemnification letter to allow the second show to go on.  

Lmao. Dude was like "Well, I think he can walk it off".

[SteveAJones]

4 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

The reason Grant, Bindon, Bonham, & Cole were not arrested and held but released was one reason only...Steve Weiss. 

All four were arrested, held and charged. It was ultimately settled in court in Feb 1978. 

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Graham showed where his principles were by signing a bogus indemnification letter to allow the second show to go on.  

He claims he was coerced by Grant to sign it. The threat was that if Graham refused the band would not perform the second show the follow day.

 

[JohnOsbourne]

9 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

All four were arrested, held and charged. It was ultimately settled in court in Feb 1978. 

He claims he was coerced by Grant to sign it. The threat was that if Graham refused the band would not perform the second show the follow day.

 

Exactly, he put money before concern for justice for his worker.  Since Graham seems to the be main source for the more lurid claims about this incident, there's reason to be skeptical about just how bad it really was.

[SteveAJones]

13 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Exactly, he put money before concern for justice for his worker. 

Not exactly. After the coercion, Bill gave serious consideration to delivering street justice. He was going to send some guys to New Orleans (the next stop on their tour) to beat the living shit out of them.

[gibsonfan159]

1 hour ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Exactly, he put money before concern for justice for his worker.  Since Graham seems to the be main source for the more lurid claims about this incident, there's reason to be skeptical about just how bad it really was.

There's more to it than that. If Zep didn't show up the next day, that's a lot of employees not getting a paycheck. I think he had to do what was best for everyone. Keeping Bonham in jail wasn't gonna make the guy's testicles stop hurting.

[JohnOsbourne]

Fair points that Graham didn't have a lot of good options, but at the end of the day his "the show must go on" attitude supports the idea that the beating given out (which of course wasn't pleasant for the guy involved) couldn't have been that bad.

[SteveAJones]

2 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Fair points that Graham didn't have a lot of good options, but at the end of the day his "the show must go on" attitude supports the idea that the beating given out (which of course wasn't pleasant for the guy involved) couldn't have been that bad.

Point well taken, but again, Peter put Bill between a rock and a hard place. If I recall correctly, Peter waited until the fans had already begun to arrive for the second show before issuing the threat. There is little doubt that had the second show been cancelled without notice the fans may well have burned the Oakland Coliseum down. That tour was already plagued by several fan riots.

[JohnOsbourne]

36 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

Point well taken, but again, Peter put Bill between a rock and a hard place. If I recall correctly, Peter waited until the fans had already begun to arrive for the second show before issuing the threat. There is little doubt that had the second show been cancelled without notice the fans may well have burned the Oakland Coliseum down. That tour was already plagued by several fan riots.

Fully agree that the main fault in all of this lies with Zeppelin.  I really wonder what the point of this waiver was anyway, as Weiss (who surely drew it up) would have been fully aware that it had no legal standing whatsoever.  Maybe a placebo to placate Grant and the band?

[PeaceFrogYum]

20 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

All four were arrested, held and charged. It was ultimately settled in court in Feb 1978. 

He claims he was coerced by Grant to sign it. The threat was that if Graham refused the band would not perform the second show the follow day.

 

Sorry, I did not word my post well. What I meant to say was all three were arrested and charged, then held for a whopping 3 hours when Weiss arranged their release. The fact is money and connections are the only thing which matters. Anything short of an actual death would have resulted in this same outcome for the boys.

All of that aside, Cole is the only living member involved in the altercation TMK (I believe Graham's men involved are either passed as well or older than dirt) who may have the full story. I say may because Cole was an addict as well so his memory is likely "fuzzy."

Anything involved with Graham in 77' would have probably had similar results as Graham, as pointed out, was a real hard ass and his crew was also known to be very prone to intimidation and violence. Mix that in with a coked out road crew themselves known to be rowdy, a know killer and gangster who was considered crazy by Ronnie Cray himself, and a very depressed and unhappy manager and that is a bad outcome. I would have to say though that Bindon was the tipping point as Bindon was known to goad people into doing dangerous shit all the time.

[SteveAJones]

42 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

What I meant to say was all three were arrested and charged, then held for a whopping 3 hours when Weiss arranged their release. 

Once their misdemeanor assault charges were filed and served, there was no reason to detain them any longer.

Aside from that, Bill Graham, though angry as he was, would have wanted Bonham released if only to perform the second show the following day. 

[strombringer101]

When this  incident happened it was the beginning of the end for Led Zeppelin. Many reasons. By this time there was many reasons to not like Zeppelin, the terrible shows, the stupid drugs and Jimmy Page more worried about his fix then playing some killer shows. The overwhelmingly long and boring solos that are so dated it became  cliché. John Paul Jones has said many times during that tour he wouldn’t even be in the same Hotel with the rest of the band and road crew. Richard Cole was a complete coke head at this time and the whole vibe was just a big downer. The creativity musically was missing or finished, they just didn’t want to admit it, Led Zeppelin was destroying itself. Then tragedy hits Robert Plant and his personal life was now shaken to it’s core. Two years later they attempted a major concert and it was panned for sounding dated. I as a fan look past the offstage crap because it means nothing. Though it is my right as a fan to point out how drugs and some may say an arrogant  attitude ruined the 77’ tour. Light effects and lasers can’t hide missed notes and sloppy playing.

[PeaceFrogYum]

2 hours ago, strombringer101 said:

When this  incident happened it was the beginning of the end for Led Zeppelin. Many reasons. By this time there was many reasons to not like Zeppelin, the terrible shows, the stupid drugs and Jimmy Page more worried about his fix then playing some killer shows. The overwhelmingly long and boring solos that are so dated it became  cliché. John Paul Jones has said many times during that tour he wouldn’t even be in the same Hotel with the rest of the band and road crew. Richard Cole was a complete coke head at this time and the whole vibe was just a big downer. The creativity musically was missing or finished, they just didn’t want to admit it, Led Zeppelin was destroying itself. Then tragedy hits Robert Plant and his personal life was now shaken to it’s core. Two years later they attempted a major concert and it was panned for sounding dated. I as a fan look past the offstage crap because it means nothing. Though it is my right as a fan to point out how drugs and some may say an arrogant  attitude ruined the 77’ tour. Light effects and lasers can’t hide missed notes and sloppy playing.

No, but ambient noise, volume, and distortion sure can and likely did. As pointed out before, no one was walking out or boo'ing the band at the shitty shows. What I have pointed out in the past still stands, the majority of the 77' shows were in fact good shows and I would argue 1/3 were excellent shows. There were only maybe a handful of truly bad shows so 77' does get a bad rap as we have all (or most) of the disasters on good quality boots whereas a good portion of the really good shows from 77' suffer from either no boot or poor quality boots (April 10th & 30th are good examples of this).

One of my pet peeves, justified or not, is how much Zep, forty years after the fact, are under such a demanding microscope whereas you rarely hear anyone mention the shitty shows from bands or musicians such as GnR to Clapton to Van Halen to Aerosmith. Crap man, EVH is considered one of the best yet he has played plenty of shows which make Page in 77' at Tempe sound like Steve Vai. I saw VH in Phoenix in 84' and EVH was so wasted Mikey Anthony cut EVH's feed to the PA system. As sloppy as Page was at some of the 77' shows, no one ever felt the need to do that. I am not making excuses, hell if I were at one of the bad shows I would have been pissed as hell but some perspective is necessary.

Zeppelin from 68' - 75' were unstoppable and untouchable live, even with Robert's F'ed up voice in 75'. Seven good years is a damn fine run for the 70's by any metric and I would still take the 77' LA run to any other live act in 77' no exception.

 

[rm2551]

I really hope one day Page pulls out some LA and NY soundboards ('77) and frankensteins up a suitably epic live release. Led Zeppelin Live - 1977. Fucked if I care if it is somewhat of a mash up to get the most "consistency" in the tunes. I don't care. TSRTS is not a purity! Nothing is!!

I'm unsure it would rate among non die hard fans (it certainly should), but man, that would be a dynamite release! The Sick Again clip they created off the various LA film sources (with Seatle thrown in for filler) is utterly fantastic. A real window into a great '77 gig. Jimmy could go for a whole release (audio only obviously).

[Victor]

On 4/25/2019 at 8:29 AM, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

Where I come from and how I was raised I was taught that if you had nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. Now I have never followed that shit. I told my mother not to let the door hit her where the good lord split her as I wanted privacy while "watching" Olivia Newton John in Xanadu...ahhhh, Xanadu....

But I digress, I recently beame a member here and I am utterly shocked at all the hate for Jimmy and Bonzo and Robert (well maybe not Robert, he talks a lot of smack himself). But seriously, how do you join what is basically a Fan Club, then rip on these guys....

I mean, I get that the outside world doesn't get LZ as a band, but here you'd expect to see those that do. They like the music, they just wish it was someone else playing it. They want album accuracy unless it's one of the Magical Performances. Like, how do you think they got those? And then there are stories of smacking people in the face and threatening to throw guys out of the band, embarrassingly excessive solos and awful skills. Not to mention subterfuge and dishonest product output by Jimmy that goes so far as to claim he can't play for shit but then at 60 he dubbed over his playing at 30. Seriously, where do you get this stuff? There are countless books, interviews, insider gossip and yet so many here run with the insane rumour mill of deranged fans. Stories started by imbeciles, uncorroborated, untrue and petty hurtful towards people they claim to love. I simply don't get it. One would imagine that this is exactly the place you'd go to see others who do get it. And if they don't they'd learn what it was about by the majority of people with love and admiration for a group that did so much for us all. Let alone the impact they had on music in general. The one place where my mother's advice would actually be employed by all. But no. It's all like "oh yeah the songs are great but these guys can't carry a tune." Bonzo can't play drums according one thread, Jimmy's the worst on another and Plant lost his voice in 72 on another. JPJ seems to still fly under the radar, thank god somebody gets a pass, but man, oh man is this the Twilight Zone or what?

They should make another website for Zeppelin Song Fans and relocate these guys there or something. Seperate them from their families at the border so they don't come back and tear gas them to boot. This is a Fan Club for the band. If you rag on that band, you should be removed. Who knows in this crazy place, maybe I get removed for saying that. Say what you want, but cordialy. Fight with each other, of course. Everyone likes a good flame war now and then (except the moderators), but keep the band members sacrosanct. Otherwise; WTF are you doing here?

Have to totally agree!!! I was once called a fanboy as if its an insult! as I disagreed with someones crap. I'm proud to be a fanboy and wear that badge with pride, and have done for almost 50 years. Led Zep produced some of the most incredible music on the planet///lets celebrate that................oh no! lets whinge and complain instead

[LurksReturnington]

How old you are has an effect on how critical you might be. I was a grocery delivery boy in 1995. Myself and Marcos, my supervisor agreed, we'd be happy just seeing Jimmy Page hold a guitar on stage with Robert Plant. Unledded had kept our expectations low to moderate. Boy was I surprised how good the Garden shows were. I would have taken anythng. Oh yeah and #freedom. Say what you want, when you want.