War in Ukraine

[JohnOsbourne]

16 hours ago, rm2551 said:

Paranoia? Nah mate, just my view based on what I watch and read from various sources, including the analysis on what Putin himself wrote about Ukraine not actually being a legitimate separate entity from Russia. Oh he wants it all baby, make no mistake.

The explanation as to why the US should give a fuck about eastern Europe is the same as it was in WW2 - that is, if you don't fight it there, eventually it will be on your doorstep. Russia and China are rising and along with some other cunty nations and one day soon (at least in my kids lifetime) may be able to form an axis that rivals the west. That is good for no one who has the basic belief that societies are best to be based on individual liberties, free markets, and the rule of law. As for pushing AUS to lead, pfffft, we are barely in our teenage years in terms of a countries maturity. We struggle to cope as a "middle power" which we are - or are becoming.

Russia supports - with the use of great force, those like him (see Belarus and the other former soviet countries where loyal strongmen are in charge despite the will of those countries peoples). The US should support similar free thinking democracies simply because from a humane view it is the right thing to do. Like you don't see a reason for the US to jump in, I don't see how it can be justified they don't.

I 100% understand the distain for how Ukraine is elevated while so many other fucked up wars/internal strife barely gets a mention. I reckon one of the biggest things people will talk about in 100 years from now looking back at how we rolled will rightly point to the fact "the west" didn't give a fuck about any actions by any countries - with very few exceptions (like this one) and just kind of turned a blind eye in the interests of trade. The almighty $$$. MBS chops up a journalist, moral outrage fades and no real action is taken. Horrors so extreme they border on unbelievable in a few different African nations by groups or sects, meh... who cares? Of course the insanity of the "culture wars" which threatens to collapse cohesive societies would also likely be a major topic along with a few others.

Still waiting for someone (anyone) to tell me why all of this is worth risking war (nuclear or otherwise) over.

And how do you know he "wants it all"?  Can you show me any official Russian government statement that claims their intent is to take over all of Ukraine?  This is just copium like Blinken was spewing in Kiev Sunday.  They're trying to get ahead of the narrative because they know Ukraine is losing the war.  In other words, they're gonna claim that Russia intended to conquer the entire country, so when Kiev capitulates and Russia achieves its stated, limited war aims, the US and Europe will proclaim that he was "stopped" from doing something he never intended.  Victory is ours!  And then on to the next Current Thing.

 

[JohnOsbourne]

15 hours ago, Reggie29 said:

Incorrect. Russia is totally wrong in invading Ukraine and incidents of war crimes like the bombing of maternity hospital are very unreasonable. The Soviet Union broke up decades ago but Putin is hell bent on restoring it at any cost. 

China is supporting Russia and that is a concern. 

Bombing hospitals, huh?  My god, what kind of fiend would do such a thing:

US bombings and other attacks on hospitals (hindupost.in)

[cryingbluerain]

On 4/25/2022 at 3:00 PM, Bong-Man said:

I smell it.  Can you?  The desire for homogenous societies.  The love and fascination for a dictator who can cancel any dissent.  The nod to fascism if it brings change their way. The hatred at any cost towards a President who has so far made every tough decision correctly as far U.S. involvement.  Hallelujah, Brothers & Sisters, I can smell it!  Shake that rosary! Tease that snake!  Yes, 2017 'Proud Boys' are passe.  The American Christian Right is so frustrated they've actually adopted Putin!!      

Clutch those pearls.

[JohnOsbourne]

Democracy never smelled so good:

Energy Crisis: Italy to Ration AC, Heat to Wean Country Off Russian Gas (breitbart.com)

[ScarletMacaw]

22 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Democracy never smelled so good:

Energy Crisis: Italy to Ration AC, Heat to Wean Country Off Russian Gas (breitbart.com)

It must be very difficult for you to understand how people can value democracy more than air conditioning. 

What is true is that there is nothing original about how Putin is conducting this war. All of the atrocities being committed have been committed in history before. Unprovoked invasion, bombing hospitals and schools, bombing ambulances, torturing and murdering civilians, rape, siege...I have to say I haven't seen so many being committed at one time before. 

[rm2551]

8 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Can you show me any official Russian government statement that claims their intent is to take over all of Ukraine?

His 5000 word essay “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” makes it crystal clear. His rhetoric whenever he discusses Ukraine and how it is an essential historical important piece of "Russian history" which ramps up leading into the war. As does the fact he did not launch an offensive to seize the Donbas region, he attacked the entire country from all available sides with the firm but mistaken belief it would take literally days to achieve total control. Put it this way John, if Russian forces went more along the lines of what they thought would happen - Zelensky and the Government flee, the resistance is minimal, Russian troops occupy the entire country - do you think Putin would simply have withdrawn from Western Ukraine??? I don't see how you can reasonably hold the view Putin did not want to absorb Ukraine into Russia by way of FULL annexation, or at the very least a Belarusian type puppet in place - as was made obvious when Putin wrote:

“I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”

No question what so ever Ukraine as an independent country is what Putin is trying to erase. They chose to look westward. Putin cannot tolerate the fact they even have that choice.

[Reggie29]

8 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Bombing hospitals, huh?  My god, what kind of fiend would do such a thing:

US bombings and other attacks on hospitals (hindupost.in)

It doesn't matter who commits atrocities they are evil acts. I remember a certain Lt. Calley involved in war crimes at My Lai in Vietnam and he paid for his crimes. Even now we have a trial going on here involving a highly decorated soldier accused of war crimes in Afghanistan. Evil resides everywhere.

[Reggie29]

11 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

OK, no surprise, but you really are full of shit.  You're literally incapable of understanding the logic of an argument you yourself put forth.  Beyond pathetic.  

Pfft!

What argument? I thought this was a discussion not a debate After. all this is a forum. What's with the insults? What part of JohnOsbourne is an imbecile don't you understand?

Btw, stay off the booze because surely you couldn't be that thick sober!?

 

[Bong-Man]

3 hours ago, rm2551 said:

His 5000 word essay “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” makes it crystal clear. His rhetoric whenever he discusses Ukraine and how it is an essential historical important piece of "Russian history" which ramps up leading into the war. As does the fact he did not launch an offensive to seize the Donbas region, he attacked the entire country from all available sides with the firm but mistaken belief it would take literally days to achieve total control. Put it this way John, if Russian forces went more along the lines of what they thought would happen - Zelensky and the Government flee, the resistance is minimal, Russian troops occupy the entire country - do you think Putin would simply have withdrawn from Western Ukraine??? I don't see how you can reasonably hold the view Putin did not want to absorb Ukraine into Russia by way of FULL annexation, or at the very least a Belarusian type puppet in place - as was made obvious when Putin wrote:

“I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”

No question what so ever Ukraine as an independent country is what Putin is trying to erase. They chose to look westward. Putin cannot tolerate the fact they even have that choice.

Exactly.  Excellent post.  Putin has felt that way since the fall and break-up of the Soviet Union.  Fascists like Putin have a tough time when it comes to diagnosing the effects of 8 years of freedom and access to the Internet.  It's Radio Free Europe times a 100.

This thread needs a tune.  I've always thought this was The Who's best post-Keith Moon effort.  It speaks for me, and I hope I never do.

    

 

[Bong-Man]

15 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Oh, please. Now you're trying too hard. MSNBC? No bias there.

 

As a very lame and misinformed poster once said, "The rebuttal that fails to rebut".  Need more?

No, Putin Isn't a Defender of 'Christian Values' (reason.com)

Vladimir Putin is a Christian, naturally | by Jonathan Poletti | ʙᴇʟᴏᴠᴇʀ | Mar, 2022 | Medium

US Far Right Adores Vladimir Putin’s Christian Nationalism More Than Freedom and Democracy  | Right Wing Watch

Hungary’s Viktor Orbán is US Christian Right’s new Putin | openDemocracy

The U.S. Christians Who Pray for Putin - Boston Review

How US Christian Nationalists Learned to Love Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church (dailykos.com)

A link--a dink!

 

Here's one for you and '3 hours of Lunacy'.  You're being played as far as immigration.  Unless of course you'd be interested in $10 dollar heads of lettuce. 

 Feds: Only 11 Employers Prosecuted for Hiring Illegal Aliens in Last Year (breitbart.com)

About 24 percent of farm industry jobs are held by illegal aliens, 15 percent of construction industry jobs are held by illegal aliens, and eight percent of production industry jobs, which includes the meatpacking industry, manufacturing industry, and textile industry, are held by illegal aliens.

They pay income tax without filing, they pay SS tax without receiving any, and your 401k and mine grows on their backs.  It's not a Republican/Democrat issue.  It's the rich taking advantage of the poor.  It's not keeping wages down when they're performing work no one else wants to do.   

Edited April 27, 2022 by Bong-Man

[rm2551]

 

[JohnOsbourne]

11 hours ago, Reggie29 said:

It doesn't matter who commits atrocities they are evil acts. I remember a certain Lt. Calley involved in war crimes at My Lai in Vietnam and he paid for his crimes. Even now we have a trial going on here involving a highly decorated soldier accused of war crimes in Afghanistan. Evil resides everywhere.

The point is, you people are shitting yourselves and completely losing it over something Russia is doing that is in no way unique or unusual or particularly brutal, nor a threat to any legitimate western interest.  The question then is:  why?  Virtue-signalling, ignorance, or you're just easy for the media to manipulate?

[JohnOsbourne]

21 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

It must be very difficult for you to understand how people can value democracy more than air conditioning. 

What is true is that there is nothing original about how Putin is conducting this war. All of the atrocities being committed have been committed in history before. Unprovoked invasion, bombing hospitals and schools, bombing ambulances, torturing and murdering civilians, rape, siege...I have to say I haven't seen so many being committed at one time before. 

Yeah, I guess if they were really serious about a humanitarian tragedy they'd write a letter to parliament or the UN.  That's a firm moral stance!

[JohnOsbourne]

15 hours ago, rm2551 said:

His 5000 word essay “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” makes it crystal clear. His rhetoric whenever he discusses Ukraine and how it is an essential historical important piece of "Russian history" which ramps up leading into the war. As does the fact he did not launch an offensive to seize the Donbas region, he attacked the entire country from all available sides with the firm but mistaken belief it would take literally days to achieve total control. Put it this way John, if Russian forces went more along the lines of what they thought would happen - Zelensky and the Government flee, the resistance is minimal, Russian troops occupy the entire country - do you think Putin would simply have withdrawn from Western Ukraine??? I don't see how you can reasonably hold the view Putin did not want to absorb Ukraine into Russia by way of FULL annexation, or at the very least a Belarusian type puppet in place - as was made obvious when Putin wrote:

“I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”

No question what so ever Ukraine as an independent country is what Putin is trying to erase. They chose to look westward. Putin cannot tolerate the fact they even have that choice.

In other words, nowhere did they say they wanted to seize the entire country.  Nothing in that quote suggests anything like full annexation, you're resorting to mind-reading it seems.  The fact is, Ukraine is every bit as artificial an entity as Czechoslovakia was.  If the US Deep State wasn't propping up it's own puppet in Kiev (something no one seems to have a problem with, remember Victoria Nuland's "fuck the EU" statement, the US government selects Ukrainians' "leaders" for them), this "country" would splinter into western and eastern parts.  This war is dragging on because the US/UK are cynically using Ukraine as a tool to strike at Russia.  

No Russian official EVER said they could take the country in a few days.  That's US government propaganda, dutifully mouthed by their captive media.   Again, the US government is fabricating Russian war aims, so that when the Ukraine finally surrenders, the US can say Russia was "defeated" since they failed to achieve grandiose objectives that the US themselves manufactured.  

It's possible the Russians thought Zelensky would fold quickly (he's obviously a major coke fiend), but the fact is, they only had about 30K troops threatening Kiev, a city of 3M.  There is no way a force that small can take a city that size.  Unless Russian military planners are idiots (I'm sure they have their equivalents of Mark Milley or Lloyd Austin, but still), it's highly unlikely they planned to take the capital and install a new government.  At any rate, they could have bombed it indiscriminately like the Americans bombed Baghdad (remember that place?), but they didn't.  

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by JohnOsbourne

[ScarletMacaw]

So many things to respond to...

1. Of course Russia wanted to take Kyiv; that was their first target. They RETREATED from Kyiv to fight a more limited war in the east and south. Why didn't they carpet the bomb the place or send more troops? Well, if they carpet-bombed the place, that would go against their propaganda that they were liberating Ukraine and would be welcomed with flowers. They now have abandoned both their goal and, it seems, the propaganda. One wonders how this is going over in Russia. Probably not well. 

2. Who gets to decide what a "real" country is, the people who live there or Vladimir Putin? 

3. Although it's disturbing that there are far right groups in the U.S. that identify with Putinism, they don't represent the majority of the Republican Party and even Trump has repudiated Putin, so I don't think we should make these people out to be more important than they are. The fact is this war has created an amazing level of bipartisan cooperation in the U.S. One silver lining, along with strengthening NATO. 

4. Putin has been quoted saying the collapse of the Soviet Union was a "tragedy." There's proof positive that he doesn't see the independent countries that rose from the ashes of the Soviet Union as real. This is some type of delusional level of denial.

5. Zelensky is an elected leader who clearly has the support of his people and the military. It's the Ukrainian military who's running this war, however. As for him being "obviously" a "coke fiend," that's pretty funny. Aside from the fact that he is too personable, chubby and even-tempered to be a coke fiend, why would anyone care? Jimmy Page was a heroin addict for awhile, but that didn't stop any of us from listening to Led Zeppelin. 

6. Thanks for the Who video. I've been thinking about how the novel most representative of this war is Lord of the Rings. The Ukrainians openly refer to the Russian soldiers as orcs and Russia as Mordor. It fits in so many ways, from the disorganized and occasionally fratricidal behavior of the orcs/Russian soldiers, to the top down organization of both militaries, to the all powerful leaders, to the brutality. In both stories there is also an unlikely diminutive hero (of sorts),  efforts to shake sense into the kings of the west to make them realize war is on their doorstep whether they wish it to be or not, but most of all Gandalf's observation that the Shadow always takes another form and rises again...

[rm2551]

2 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

In other words, nowhere did they say they wanted to seize the entire country.  Nothing in that quote suggests anything like full annexation, you're resorting to mind-reading it seems.  The fact is, Ukraine is every bit as artificial an entity as Czechoslovakia was.

I'll leave it at this.....

Russia invaded from 3 sides the entire country. They rolled in enough forces that they mistakenly believed were enough to deal with a moderately low level of resistance by Ukraine before the Government fled the country and Ukraine collapsed. I have not read or seen analysis from anyone worth their salt (military and political analysis anywhere) surmising Russia never wanted to overrun and completely control Ukraine - which by definition would be to a) annex it or b) install a thug puppet. If it was just the east, why those columns of forces heading into the capital in the west???? Why attack the entire country? It makes no sense even when I consider the rigid top down military command structure of Russia and the fact Putin could be the military strategist equivalent of what Hitler was to his forces - a disaster. Still, why try to take over the entire country if you have no intention of overtaking the entire country?

But you know this is my view, I know you have a different one, so no use going around in circles. I'm not sure how you view Ukraine as "artificial". It is a recognised independent and sovereign nation. That is a very strange thing to say. A lot of nations are born from trauma like war, or via very bloody internal conflict that takes decades to recover from, or seceding against powers that fight against them, overthrowing "leaders" who are no longer supported but won't move aside, etc.. It is seldom a clean birth. Ukraine has a short democratic history, but it IS a sovereign independent country that has been recognised since 1996.

You find more complexity and hidden agendas in these things, which is fine, I probably (almost certainly) am naïve with my much more simplistic understanding, so not having a shot, I just don't understand some foundations you lay like Ukraine is a fiction (artificial). It seems that entire nation thinks differently - and why would they not have the right to?

So, moving on....

I suspect the new efforts by Russia will be a significant problem for Ukraine. Austin might have some explaining to do if this turns into a war of attrition and non stop bombing of Ukrainian cities - especially if Ukranian forces start to lose their abilities to resist. The Russians seem to be going for a mid-term victory (they probably know if it drags on too long they cannot sustain this "action" as sanctions alone might cause internal strife for Russia) while Ukraine are determined to take the blows and not lose enough of its armed forces that it can no longer hold the aggressors back. The early success of the Ukrainians no longer matters. Drones and one-off tank kills are no longer enough. They won round 1 no question. The Russians had no idea that Ukraine had developed this capability and were actively building it for the last 8-10 years. They held and played a very successful hand. The west says it is going to supply heavy and forward attack weapons systems like tanks, jets etc. so Ukraine can move into a new phase to properly meet the new Russian attack, but right now it looks like it will be impossible to hold Russia out of the entire southern and eastern regions.

.....but I really hope they do hold and drive the orcs out.

[SteveAJones]

On 4/26/2022 at 4:22 PM, ScarletMacaw said:

It must be very difficult for you to understand how people can value democracy more than air conditioning. 

It's difficult for me to understand how ANYONE can be so naive as to think this restriction has ANYTHING to do with valuing democracy. 

[SteveAJones]

17 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

This thread needs a tune. 

 

[Reggie29]

7 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

The point is, you people are shitting yourselves and completely losing it over something Russia is doing that is in no way unique or unusual or particularly brutal, nor a threat to any legitimate western interest.  The question then is:  why?  Virtue-signalling, ignorance, or you're just easy for the media to manipulate?

You people?

I've lost nothing and I'm not afraid of Russia even though Putin is a loose cannon.

I am concerned over China's involvement in the Pacific.

[SteveAJones]

4 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

So many things to respond to...

1. Of course Russia wanted to take Kyiv; that was their first target. They RETREATED from Kyiv to fight a more limited war in the east and south. Why didn't they carpet the bomb the place or send more troops? Well, if they carpet-bombed the place, that would go against their propaganda that they were liberating Ukraine and would be welcomed with flowers. 

They will take Kyiv, it's just taking longer than anticipated. They haven't gone scorched earth with their bombing because Russia will need the infrastructure that exists to exert it's control over Ukraine once it annexes it. The only question that remains is how much of Ukraine is Putin willing to settle for.  

[ScarletMacaw]

Apparently SteveAJones likes Putin because Putin has fashioned himself as a gangsta in a music video. This is an example of the decline of western cultural standards. There is exactly one thing that Putin is right about, and that is that the West has been experiencing a cultural decline. Our pop culture for the last 30 years has been worshipping criminals and whores. But that doesn't mean our military still isn't the best in the world, nor does it mean our democracy is failing even though it has deep flaws. In fact this war in Ukraine has reminded me of the ways in which I'm still proud to be an American. Congress and the President have pulled themselves together and at least temporarily pushed aside their partisan bickering in order to help defend our allies, Europe in general and democracy. So many people I know are devoting their time to helping the Ukrainians. It goes to show that most Americans share the same values, and the two political parties have to manufacture bogus issues to drive us apart.

We're coming out of the pandemic in much better shape than China, despite all the temper tantrums about mask-wearing. We're much more energy-independent than Europe. We are a net exporter of food. Our political system has stood for over 200 years. Despite a Hollywood culture that exalts materialism, conspicuous consumption, misogyny and the lowest elements of our culture, we're going to be around long after Russia and China collapse. 

[redrum]

13 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

 

I was expecting the car to explode once he got in. Hell, he could sell all that artwork to finance the war. I think Biden wants to take that car for himself. 😄

[ScarletMacaw]

18 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

They will take Kyiv, it's just taking longer than anticipated. They haven't gone scorched earth with their bombing because Russia will need the infrastructure that exists to exert it's control over Ukraine once it annexes it. The only question that remains is how much of Ukraine is Putin willing to settle for.  

From the Wall Street Journal (which we all know is a flaming liberal newspaper): "Russia at the end of March switched its immediate objectives from taking Kyiv and ousting the elected government to seizing chunks of territory in Ukraine’s east. But any success in severing Ukrainian units’ supply lines might not be decisive, analysts say, because Russian forces would be vulnerable to Ukrainian counterattacks and face tough urban fighting....Russia has quickly thrown together the remnants of units that were decimated in fighting around Kyiv in the first weeks of the war and sent them into fighting in the east. That has left Russian forces there without sufficient logistical and other support, preventing a significant breakthrough, the U.K. Ministry of Defense said Wednesday, describing Russian advances as minor."

As Russia has now bombed railways as well as hospitals, and has put land mines in farms, it does not look like they are particularly interested in preserving Ukrainian infrastructure. It's interesting because in WWII, many Japanese soldiers died because they had devastated the areas they invaded and there was no food. 

[ScarletMacaw]

One more excerpt from the Journal, on Russia's denial of Ukrainian identity: "

"The idea that Ukrainians aren’t a real people and that Ukrainian nationhood is an artificial construct has long been mainstream in Russian culture, literature and politics—including among liberal luminaries like Brodsky, who died in 1996. President Vladimir Putin’s views on Ukraine, which he expounded in an essay last year that was read to Russian soldiers preparing for the invasion, are no outlier. They follow a lengthy tradition that helps to explain the continuing support for the war among Russia’s citizens.

This blind spot dates to the beginnings of the modern Ukrainian quest for sovereignty more than a century ago. “The Russian democrat ends where the Ukrainian question begins,” said Ukrainian writer and playwright Volodymyr Vynnychenko, who served as prime minister of the short-lived Ukrainian National Republic in 1917-18. It has become one of the best-known phrases in Ukrainian politics.

Nobel Prize-winning Russian poet Joseph Brodsky in 1994.

PHOTO: KEITH BEATY/TORONTO STAR/GETTY IMAGES

 

In Russia’s historical narrative and literary tradition, Ukrainians have often been depicted as dimwitted but good-natured peasants who speak with a funny accent, and whose quest for an independent future can only be the product of foreign intrigues. Mikhail Bulgakov, born in Kyiv to parents who had moved from Russia, mocked the Ukrainian language in his novels, with one character arguing that Ukrainians can’t have a word for whale because, unlike Russia, Ukraine doesn’t have oceans. Natives of Ukraine who achieved undisputed artistic or scientific success, from the painter Kazimir Malevich to the father of the Soviet space program, Sergei Korolyov, have been appropriated as Russian."

 

[JohnOsbourne]

15 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

From the Wall Street Journal (which we all know is a flaming liberal newspaper): "Russia at the end of March switched its immediate objectives from taking Kyiv and ousting the elected government to seizing chunks of territory in Ukraine’s east. But any success in severing Ukrainian units’ supply lines might not be decisive, analysts say, because Russian forces would be vulnerable to Ukrainian counterattacks and face tough urban fighting....Russia has quickly thrown together the remnants of units that were decimated in fighting around Kyiv in the first weeks of the war and sent them into fighting in the east. That has left Russian forces there without sufficient logistical and other support, preventing a significant breakthrough, the U.K. Ministry of Defense said Wednesday, describing Russian advances as minor."

As Russia has now bombed railways as well as hospitals, and has put land mines in farms, it does not look like they are particularly interested in preserving Ukrainian infrastructure. It's interesting because in WWII, many Japanese soldiers died because they had devastated the areas they invaded and there was no food. 

The WSJ is neoconservative, so just liberal with a slightly right-wing bent.  (You seem easily distracted by the strong leftward shift of American politics behind the brain-dead red team/blue team charade.)  They are just mouthing Pentagon talking points here.  Only the US government and media are claiming Kiev was a primary objective.  I will note that they acknowledge Ukrainian tactics of retreating into urban areas, which is a sure recipe for civilian casualties.  

Indeed, Russia is starting to bomb railways that are being used to bring in Western military hardware.  You don't seem particularly curious as to why they've waited TWO MONTHS to do this (the Americans would have done it two days into the war).  If you think Russian military planners are idiots, you should simply say so, but all this atrocity porn is getting boring (not to mention stupid).