What is wrong with universities today?

[tangerinedream]

Here is an interesting video on today's university students.

For people who are currently enrolled in college:

1. If you could change three things about university classes, what would those three things be?
   
2. If you could change three things about university professors, what would those three things be?
   
3. On a scale of 1-10, how bad do most professors suck?
   
4. What about them makes them suck so badly?
   
5. What should university teachers do instead of what they are doing?
   
6. What changes to the way universities are set up might improve the educational experience for college students?
   

Thanks for any responses you might care to offer.

~tangerinedream~

[JBird]

Hmm.... I am currently a University student. I am attending a private university though - does that count?

I'm going to come back and answer these questions later when I have more time to contemplate them.

[eternal light]

Education is supposed to improve people's lives, at any level, including the universities.

[LadyRaven]

Make it cheaper so everyone can go and afford it. Limit sororities and fraternities- they are so stupid and pointless. Pay more attention to student surveys of professors- if more than half the class is failing the prof is doing something wrong.

[Aquamarine]

Bear in mind that students also need to be prepared academically for college-level study, and to act like responsible adults when they need to. It's not all one-sided. I can't pretend I never partied and turned in late assignments etc. when I was in college, but I did learn about the need to straighten up when it was important. Not all students get that message.

I'm not denying that many professors are ineffective, simply saying that the education experience is a two-way street.

[manderlyh]

For people who are currently enrolled in college:

[*]If you could change three things about university classes, what would those three things be?

I wish my classes were done in blocks of quarters instead of semesters. This way, I'd have less time to finish a course, but I'd also be taking less courses at a time. It would be the same amount of classes overall, but then I wouldn't have weeks where I had six papers due and six tests in the same week, sometimes even on the same day.

[*]If you could change three things about university professors, what would those three things be?

[*]On a scale of 1-10, how bad do most professors suck?

depends on the professors--I have had some awesome ones, but the bad ones are REALLY bad. I have one that's about a 1 right now--she doesn't even read the book before class, let alone look at the publisher-prepared power point she teaches off of.

[*]What about them makes them suck so badly?

Most of the teachers I've had issues with are unreasonable when it comes to particular things. My philosphy teacher doesn't "give out A's because grades are inflated too much." Instead, she gives a 8.5 for an assignment you've worked really hard on for a 100-level class. Fellow students and teachers have talked about this, and I think she's a pompus asshole.

I had a math teacher that would move too fast in class and laugh when you asked him to stop and explain more information. I hated him.

I took a fiction writing class this summer that I hated because the teacher LIED to us about "University Policy." Please. If you want respect, don't make us doubt every word you say. He's also shoot us down if we answered his questions with anything that wasn't 100% exactly what he was looking for--even if our answers weren't exactly wrong.

I've had teachers assign waayy too much work. I had once literature class where I was expected to read a novel a week, and then turn in a literary analysis paper on each novel. This was ONE three credit class out of my six. I've got friends who are currently taking classes from teachers who do the same with their workloads, and when they come to the teachers to tell them that the entire class is not able to get all of the work done, the teachers don't do anything to help them out.

If you're going to teach something, teach it with passion! Have fun! The best teachers I have ever had are able to joke and do things other than stand in front of the class and drone on and on and on and on.... Don't teach anything you don't like. We won't like it either.

[*]What should university teachers do instead of what they are doing?

Many teachers that I've had that I think need to to certian things to improve need to do a few things, but the first one is "Practice what you preach." Don't tell me that I need to do this, and this, and this, and this; but it's not relevant to you. I hate that. Another thing is when I'm in a lecture and the teacher's going from one topic to another at lightning speed, I can't keep up with notes! I have an education teacher who does this--he talks about formulating lesson plans and general things to do when teaching, but goes through the Power Points so fast that I am so busy writing down what's on the Power Point slide before he goes on that I don't get time to read the entire slide before he moves on, and most of the time, I don't even finish copying the material--did I mention that the material that's covered in class is not in my book? Model the class so the books compliment instruction, for God's sake!! I also would like to suggest that if you know you're going to be covering stuff at lightning speed, make handout notes or make them available electronically so the students can listen to what you're saying instead of being human transcription machines. That's what frustrates me the most. One last thing--if you are going to give a test--a unit test, a mid-term, a final, whatever, any test needs a detailed study guide. We cover so much material in all of our classes, not just yours, that we need a concentrated and focused way to make sure we're ready for the test! Listing specific items on the test, (not just "everything chapters 1-5), and making sure that they have been covered in class is important! Don't use test banks for the tests--write your own! The biggest bones I have to pick with profs is when they fish test questions out of test banks and then when they don't make sense, the teachers confuse the students.

[*]What changes to the way universities are set up might improve the educational experience for college students?

That's a tough one. My university revolves it's life around the f-ing football team--literally. Students can't park their cars in "student parking lots" when there's a football game, even though we have class to go to. At a University, education should always come first---especially when your students are paying $4K and more a semester to get education.

I get emails about things that I was required to go to, meeting to attend a day before they are scheduled.

This year, we get out of school for the semester four days before Christmas. So much for the people who have to fly or drive home to be there--not to mention the fact that one of my teachers told me that grades are due Christmas Eve.

There are several teachers at my university that are notorious for being crappy teachers--never giving extra help, not flexible on work load (like I talked about above), and just being proud to have students fail. Teachers who do not take partial responsiblity for their students' success should not have a job. What is the point of evals if no one does anything with them? Even if they are tenured, they should be expected to do some kind of reflection on how to continually improve.

[manderlyh]

BTW--all of these "bad scnerios" are from a student who has done the "partying now...can't do homework" thing. I'm a serious student now. Nothing's ever late, I never come to class unprepared---(okay--about 99% of the time, I'm prepared...)

But remember, I told Dave the other day that I have 28 hours' worth of stuff to do a day and only 24 hours a day to do it in (except for this last week and present week).

I wish there was a way to make us have "less" stuff to do so people like me can sleep more than 5 hours a night, but I don't know what that is.

[Muse]

I'll get back to the questions some other time, but I will make one comment on the workload:

My sister is finishing up her Masters in Architecture (she's a bright cookie) and right now she's averaging 18 hours of sleep a week. She's at school working on projects from 8 am to 10 pm most every weekday, plus she often has to go in on a Saturday. We live in the same house and I never even see her. It's insane - is there really a need for such a workload?

[Electrophile]

When I was a senior, as a business major you had to take a class called BuSA 4980, which is a capstone class incorporating everything you learned in the business college during your stay there. You basically had to run a shoe company. It was all online and you had to make the shoes, market them, sell them, deal with overstock.....everything someone who owned a company would have to deal with.

At the end of the semester, you had to turn in a 200-400 page report, and it was pretty much the reports you did every day for class bundled together. You had to have charts, graphs, and breakdowns for each demographic you sold to and each location you sold to.

This wasn't the only class I had my last semester, but it took up 80-90% of my time. It was hell, but I earned that A.

[Day Tripper]

I'll get back to the questions some other time, but I will make one comment on the workload:

My sister is finishing up her Masters in Architecture (she's a bright cookie) and right now she's averaging 18 hours of sleep a week. She's at school working on projects from 8 am to 10 pm most every weekday, plus she often has to go in on a Saturday. We live in the same house and I never even see her. It's insane - is there really a need for such a workload?

oh shit.

I'm going for a MArch after undergrad... and that frightens me.

I'll answer the rest of the questions later, it's 2 AM and I have a paper due tomorrow.

[AllisonAdler]

Bear in mind that students also need to be prepared academically for college-level study, and to act like responsible adults when they need to. It's not all one-sided. I can't pretend I never partied and turned in late assignments etc. when I was in college, but I did learn about the need to straighten up when it was important. Not all students get that message.

I'm not denying that many professors are ineffective, simply saying that the education experience is a two-way street.

Agreed! But I'm horrified by the behavior of some of Manders' profs (not shocked, since I've seen my colleagues do many of these things). I'm not sure why some people even bother going into academia if they can't follow basic pedagogical common sense. I simply don't understand people who don't want the whole class to do well (I'm personally disappointed when I have to give anything less than an A, not that I'm not disappointed rather often, alas). And not being flexible doesn't prove that you're professional, it just proves that you're narrow and mean. On the novel a week thing, I think most profs expect students to get a head start on the reading before term begins to prepare for good class discussion, so this seems a bit less egregious to me. I personally try never to assign more than 200 pages a week unless it's a senior English seminar, in which case I feel as though 250 is fairly reasonable (when I was an undergrad, 350 was pretty common, which is rather a lot).

As Aqua implies, though, there are times when one's students test one's patience as well, and I do begin to think that one thing that would make universities better (wisely suggested by my present TA) would be a pre-college summer training week or weeks to learn about etiquette, study habits, etc. I know it's probably wishful thinking, but it would be great if such training obviated the necessity of having to do maternal things like answering questions (usually on email) that could be answered by~ ~ looking at the syllabus (!), ugh. I really like and enjoy my students, but they seem to need an awful lot of guidance!

[Chicken]

1. If you could change three things about university classes, what would those three things be?

One thing I can think of, which is causing me a problem today...is that as part of my third year performance elective, I have to carry on my guitar lessons. They are only half an hour a week, but they require a lot of preparation. This was fine when I first started back, but now that I've got so much more work to do, as much as I hate to admit it, they're just a massive hassle! I haven't had time to practice my guitar lesson stuff again this week because of my other work, and I'm gonna have to go in this afternoon and have him be all grouchy with me again.

The thing is, in previous years I've actually had a guitar exam as part of performance at the end of this, so I've made time, because I have to.

However, this year it just comes to nothing! There's no guitar exam...the guitar lessons are just there to help me out with anything I might need a hand with and for my teacher to teach me whatever he feels like.

But I have to keep going every week, when I really should be doing other things. This is just one of the things that's adding to my stress at the moment! As much as I enjoy my guitar lessons, if they were optional this year it'd be such a weight off my mind.

Apart from that, I can't really think of anything much to complain about!

2. If you could change three things about university professors, what would those three things be?

For a start, I would make them easier to get hold of. I'm having to get in touch with my tutors even more now that I'm on third year, but they always seem so busy! Maybe there just isn't enough staff. Even if I e-mail them it takes them ages to reply, and often their reply is just too late to offer me any help.

3. On a scale of 1-10, how bad do most professors suck?

Well, my tutors don't really suck...so I'm gonna have to give them a 1 for that.

for the most part they're great, apart from this one guy who does get results, so he's a good tutor in that sense...I just never appreciated the way he talked to/made assumptions about the music students.

But hey, I don't have him this year so it's all good.

4. What about them makes them suck so badly?

There's the thing with not being able to contact them that I mentioned earlier.

But with the guy I just mentioned that I didn't like, I found him very patronising and arrogant. It was just un-neccessary in lectures with young adults. Or anyone for that matter. He was meant to be teaching us about the history of popular music, not mocking us when someone hadn't heard of an artist he regarded as seminal.

It was worse when I was in foundation year...obviously foundation students are even less worthy of being there and obviously know nothing about music...but he wasn't much better when my group started the degree course a year later.

Also he has one hell of a temper. Once he threw a pen at a guy in my class.

Hm...

5. What should university teachers do instead of what they are doing?

It wouldn't hurt for some of them to be a bit less laid back...it's hard to be motivated for some of them. And then it ends up being dead close to the deadline and everything...

6. What changes to the way universities are set up might improve the educational experience for college students?

I can't really think of anything major to do with this.

Although the building I study in is away from the main site of uni, so it could definitely do with a bit of a facelift. Sometimes it just seems like it's a bit forgotten.

But overall the place is run well.

---------------------------------------------------------

What was this in aid of again? Haha...

[guitarmy]

aww crap this thread is way up my alley but I'm too invested in doing schoolwork to give a full reply...ahhhh!

I guess you know what I would suggest...less work.

haha that sounds so terrible.

oh well

I'll have some time soon and answer the list

[Aquamarine]

I agree with everybody so far, really, especially Allison and Manders. There's no denying some professors are very unfair, overly demanding, self-centered etc. (and also true that many aren't). It's also true that students are often poorly served by the high schools that haven't prepared them for the university experience.

I'm sure we've all got tales of horrendous workloads, but it still seems to me that nothing compares to med students, whose schedules are absolutely insane.

[Del Zeppnile]

Here is an interesting video on today's university students.

For people who are currently enrolled in college:

1. If you could change three things about university classes, what would those three things be?
   
2. If you could change three things about university professors, what would those three things be?
   
3. On a scale of 1-10, how bad do most professors suck?
   
4. What about them makes them suck so badly?
   
5. What should university teachers do instead of what they are doing?
   
6. What changes to the way universities are set up might improve the educational experience for college students?
   

Thanks for any responses you might care to offer.

~tangerinedream~

1. abolish all public/tax supported college education (exept for people who served for at least four years in the military)

2. outlaw tenure

3.

... yep, that will pretty much fix it.

[manderlyh]

Del--don't you think that #1 would make our society even MORE uneducated?

I for one, would not be able to go to college if I didn't have any kind of taxes or federal programs aiding me.

BTW--I have only had one or two of the "horror" teachers. Otherwise, I've got wonderful teachers, and I am very happy I do!

[Del Zeppnile]

Del--don't you think that #1 would make our society even MORE uneducated?

It would if I paid less taxes and could afford to send my kids to better universities. Besides, the military to college option does help society AND our national interests.

The military actually pays people to serve.

[tangerinedream]

It would if I paid less taxes and could afford to send my kids to better universities. Besides, the military to college option does help society AND our national interests.

The military actually pays people to serve.

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses so far.

I'm OK with the military-to-college option....and I might also agree with abolishing tenure.

But dismantling the tenure system is a quixotic quest if ever there was one. That's like asking Congress to vote themselves a salary cut.

[MadScreamingGallery]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses so far.

I'm OK with the military-to-college option....and I might also agree with abolishing tenure.

But dismantling the tenure system is a quixotic quest if ever there was one. That's like asking Congress to vote themselves a salary cut.

Not quite:

November 20, 2007

Decline of the Tenure Track Raises Concerns

By ALAN FINDER

Correction Appended

DEARBORN, Mich. — Professors with tenure or who are on a tenure track are now a distinct minority on the country’s campuses, as the ranks of part-time instructors and professors hired on a contract have swelled, according to federal figures analyzed by the American Association of University Professors.

Elaine Zendlovitz, a former retail store manager who began teaching college courses six years ago, is representative of the change. Technically, Ms. Zendlovitz is a part-time Spanish professor, although, in fact, she teaches nearly all the time.

Her days begin at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, with introductory classes. Some days end at 10 p.m. at Oakland Community College, in the suburbs north of Detroit, as she teaches six courses at four institutions.

“I think we part-timers can be everything a full-timer can be,” Ms. Zendlovitz said during a break in a 10-hour teaching day. But she acknowledged: “It’s harder to spend time with students. I don’t have the prep time, and I know how to prepare a fabulous class.”

The shift from a tenured faculty results from financial pressures, administrators’ desire for more flexibility in hiring, firing and changing course offerings, and the growth of community colleges and regional public universities focused on teaching basics and preparing students for jobs.

It has become so extreme, however, that some universities are pulling back, concerned about the effect on educational quality. Rutgers University agreed in a labor settlement in August to add 100 tenure or tenure-track positions. Across the country, faculty unions are organizing part-timers. And the American Federation of Teachers is pushing legislation in 11 states to mandate that 75 percent of classes be taught by tenured or tenure-track teachers.

Three decades ago, adjuncts — both part-timers and full-timers not on a tenure track — represented only 43 percent of professors, according to the professors association, which has studied data reported to the federal Education Department. Currently, the association says, they account for nearly 70 percent of professors at colleges and universities, both public and private.

John W. Curtis, the director of research and public policy for the American Association of University Professors, said that while the number of tenured and tenure-track professors has increased by about 25 percent over the past 30 years, they have been swamped by the growth in adjunct faculty. Over all, the number of people teaching at colleges and universities has doubled since 1975.

University officials agree that the use of nontraditional faculty is soaring. But some contest the professors association’s calculation, saying that definitions of part-time and full-time professors vary, and that it is not possible to determine how many courses, on average, each category of professor actually teaches.

Many state university presidents say tight budgets have made it inevitable that they turn to adjuncts to save money.

“We have to contend with increasing public demands for accountability, increased financial scrutiny and declining state support,” said Charles F. Harrington, provost of the University of North Carolina, Pembroke. “One of the easiest, most convenient ways of dealing with these pressures is using part-time faculty,” he said, though he cautioned that colleges that rely too heavily on such faculty “are playing a really dangerous game.”

Mark B. Rosenberg, chancellor of the State University System of Florida, said that part-timers can provide real-world experience to students and fill gaps in nursing, math, accounting and other disciplines with a shortage of qualified faculty. He also said the shift could come with costs.

Adjuncts are less likely to have doctoral degrees, educators say. They also have less time to meet with students, and research suggests that students who take many courses with them are somewhat less likely to graduate.

“Really, we are offering less educational quality to the students who need it most,” said Ronald G. Ehrenberg, director of the Cornell Higher Education Research Institute, noting that the soaring number of adjunct faculty is most pronounced in community colleges and the less select public universities. The elite universities, both public and private, have the fewest adjuncts.

“It’s not that some of these adjuncts aren’t great teachers,” Dr. Ehrenberg said. “Many don’t have the support that the tenure-track faculty have, in terms of offices, secretarial help and time. Their teaching loads are higher, and they have less time to focus on students.”

Dr. Ehrenberg and a colleague analyzed 15 years of national data and found that graduation rates declined when public universities hired large numbers of contingent faculty.

Several studies of individual universities have determined that freshmen taught by many part-timers were more likely to drop out.

“Having an adjunct in a course is not necessarily bad for you, but having too many adjuncts might be,” said Eric P. Bettinger, an economics professor at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland.

Students say they can often tell when a professor is part-time. Mike Brennan, a sophomore at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, said the courses taught by adjuncts tend to be more basic and the exams less challenging. “They have so many classes that they give tests that are easier to grade,” Mr. Brennan said.

Carly Matkovich, a senior at the university, said she had bonded more with her part-time teachers, in part because they have more practical experience. But it is usually hard to find time to talk with them outside class. “They’re never around,” Ms. Matkovich said. “It does make me feel kind of cheated.”

At some departments the proportion of faculty who are tenured is startlingly low. The psychology department at Florida International University in Miami has 2,400 undergraduate majors but only 19 tenured or tenure-track professors who teach, according to a department self-assessment. It is possible for a psychology major to graduate without taking a course with a full-time faculty member.

“We’re at a point where it is extreme,” said Suzanna Rose, a psychology professor who said she stepped down as department head in August, primarily because she could not hire as many tenure-track professors as she thought the department needed. “I’m just very concerned about the quality.”

Ronald Berkman, the provost at Florida International, disputed her numbers, saying the psychology department has 23 professors who are tenured or tenure track and 5 full-time teachers on contracts. The department is conducting a search for three more tenure-track professors, Dr. Berkman said.

“Which is not to say that they don’t need more, which they do,” he said.

Tenure, a practice carried from Germany to the United States, was designed to guarantee academic freedom to professors by protecting them against dismissal. Some argue that it also protects incompetent or lazy teachers and sometimes leaves universities saddled with professors in disciplines that have lost currency.

The lack of tenure can leave adjuncts vulnerable. In a number of cases, professors outside the tenure track have been dropped after run-ins with administrators over everything from grading to opinion articles in newspapers.

Several unions have been organizing adjunct faculty in recent years. In Michigan, the American Federation of Teachers has successfully organized full-time, nontenure-track professors at Eastern Michigan University, as well as part-time and full-time adjuncts at the University of Michigan campuses in Ann Arbor, Dearborn and Flint.

“They are so exploited, the only difficulty in organizing adjuncts is finding them,” said David Hecker, president of the teachers federation.

Keith Hoeller, who has been teaching philosophy for 17 years as a part-timer in Seattle, described it this way: “It’s a caste system, and we are the untouchables of academia.”

Aletia Droba taught for 10 years as a part-time philosophy professor in the Detroit area. She said she was paid as little as $1,400 a course at community colleges and as much as $2,400 a class at universities.

Some semesters, Ms. Droba said, she taught as many as seven courses at four colleges, including across the border in Canada. This fall, she landed a full-time, non-tenure track job. She will teach five courses in the fall and spring combined — less than the number she often taught in a single semester as a part-timer.

Ms. Droba will not miss the constant driving that a part-timer does, shuttling among universities. “My students used to ask me how come I knew so much about current affairs,” she said. “And I’d say, ‘I listen to NPR all day.’ ”

Correction: November 23, 2007

Because of an editing error, a front-page article on Tuesday about the decline of tenure-track professors and the rising numbers of part-time instructors and professors at colleges nationwide misidentified the affiliation of John W. Curtis of the American Association of University Professors, which has studied these shifts. He is the director of research and public policy of the association, not of the American Federation of Teachers.

After I took (very) early retirement, my tenure line was eliminated (because of cuts at the state level). My courses are now taught by visiting profs, non-tenure track profs, and adjuncts.

[tangerinedream]

Not quite:

After I took (very) early retirement, my tenure line was eliminated (because of cuts at the state level). My courses are now taught by visiting profs, non-tenure track profs, and adjuncts.

I hear you re: rise in adjuncts, which mirrors the increase in contract hires in the corporate world. An increase in adjunct positions means a decrease in tenure-track positions. But does an increase in adjunct positions mean that the tenure system itself is in jeopardy? Or is it just that access TO the system is more restricted now?

[wanna be drummer]

Get my acceptance letters faster.

I finally got my acceptance letter to MSU (after 13 weeks...)

[MadScreamingGallery]

I hear you re: rise in adjuncts, which mirrors the increase in contract hires in the corporate world. An increase in adjunct positions means a decrease in tenure-track positions. But does an increase in adjunct positions mean that the tenure system itself is in jeopardy? Or is it just that access TO the system is more restricted now?

With the rise in the number of adjuncts and non-tenured faculty, I don't think that the tenure system is what it had once been. I left a state university where all tenured faculty were required to undergo periodic post-tenure reviews. There were some "penalties" for faculty who failed to engage in post-tenure scholarship (e.g., increased course loads - especially with "undesirable" classes, lack of opportunity for sabbaticals, increased service load, greater number of advisees, etc.). We also had a system that allowed the Chairs and Deans to determine merit pay raises based upon a number of factors, all of which were connected to the "holy trinity" of scholarship, teaching, and research. Yes, to your last question, the system is much more restricted now so my advice to you is: "publish, publish, publish"

[manderlyh]

It would if I paid less taxes and could afford to send my kids to better universities. Besides, the military to college option does help society AND our national interests.

The military actually pays people to serve.

While I am a huge military supporter (but not-so-much war supporter), I don't think that the military to college option is always a good idea.

Looking at all the kids who've died in this war we have going on right now proves my point. I read a CNN data base that had profiles of each soldier in this war that has died since 9/11, American and British. I noticed that the majority of young black men that have died for American in this war enlisted in the military so they could afford to go to college afterwards. Look where that got them.

See--if you're paying less taxes, that only helps the people in your income bracket go to school. Like I said before, when I started going to college, my mom make less than $20K a year and had three kids to support. She didn't pay taxes because her income was so low that we literally had to look for change under the couch cushions to get gas money, toilet paper, or food. I don't know how many times I paid the water bill with the money I earned working a job after school--high school. How would this help students that were in the same situation I was in? I was a straight-A student, involved in many extra curricular activies in high school, and I graduated in the top 10% of my class. I didn't get any scholarships except one to a private college that was still astronomically priced and out of my range after the sholarships.

Your idea would work well for the kids in your class Del, but I think it's sad that it cuts out hardworking, honest, smart poor kids and their hardworking, honest poor families.

edited to add: Did I mention that private loans do not help "poor" students at all? They expect you to start repayment immediately. If poor students can't come up with the money to buy school books, who are they going to come up with $100+ a month to pay back their student loans? They're not. Defaulting on loans may happen more as a result of this, and then interest rates on loans would also go up to cover the bank's losses.

Private loans also require good, strong credit. Most "poor" students (if they are extremely poor), do not have parents that can co-sign for loans, and most 18-year old college students don't have enough credit history to get themselves a loan.

_________

Adjunct faculty are usually the ones I tend to disagree with the most. Rarely do I have any major issues with tenured teachers, or even "regular" teachers.

[TheBulle]

I'm French and I dunno if you guys know but there has been a student strike (yeah I know...) for weeks now...I haven't been to class in over 2 weeks. I have (supposedly) exams soon. The problem in France with universities is that when you graduate from french universities you can't find a job. A lot of universities don't have enough money. The teachers are shit...and well, the students are just as lazy as they come...

[wanna be drummer]

It would if I paid less taxes and could afford to send my kids to better universities. Besides, the military to college option does help society AND our national interests.

The military actually pays people to serve.

That would be great Del, if everybody who followed that road got the money. Its becoming too hard for some people to get the money theyre promised. The National Guard more so than the Army are shankin people.