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The Ossetian Conflic


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The way it looks right now, Bush is sending US troops to provide "humanitarian aid". His rhetoric implies that Russia is the aggressor, and that the troops are going in to 'protect civilians' from the Russian military.

Anybody who pays attention to what is actually going on will realize that the Ossetians are fleeing into Russian territory. They certainly would not be doing that if they thought the Russians were the aggressors.

According to Human Rights Watch, there have not been nearly as many fatalities as have been reported. They claim the numbers are inflated by the Russians in order to inflame passions and motivate more aggression. At least that's the way it was reported when I heard the claim. It's likely that there are false claims being made by both sides. Not to mention clandestine "Western" intelligence operatives.

To me it seems probable, if not certain, that this conflict was instigated by "Western" intelligence operatives as a pretext to insert US forces into Georgia. That is textbook covert activity.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/more...y-s-ossetia-war

In another report, a woman interviewed by Russia Today in Tsknivali, South Ossetia, talked about the presence of Georgian troops with American insignias. “There are lots of bodies over there, a lot of people have been killed, mostly Ossetians, but also Georgians, they had American emblems on their forearms and they were in black uniforms,” she said.

Black uniforms are a trademark of Blackwater and DynCorp mercenaries (see Chris Hedges, America’s Holy Warriors). DynCorp’s presence in Eastern Europe is well documented, particularly in occupied Bosnia where it engaged in sex-trafficking and prostitution.

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The way it looks right now, Bush is sending US troops to provide "humanitarian aid". His rhetoric implies that Russia is the aggressor, and that the troops are going in to 'protect civilians' from the Russian military.

Anybody who pays attention to what is actually going on will realize thatthe Ossetians are fleeing into Russian territory. They certainly would not be doing that if they thought the Russians were the aggressors.

According to Human Rights Watch, there have not been nearly as many fatalities as have been reported. They claim the numbers are inflated by the Russians in order to inflame passions and motivate more aggression. At least that's the way it was reported when I heard the claim. It's likely that there are false claims being made by both sides. Not to mention clandestine "Western" intelligence operatives.

To me it seems probable, if not certain, that this conflict was instigated by "Western" intelligence operatives as a pretext to insert US forces into Georgia. That is textbook covert activity.

Atlas, you are right. Thanks God there are such smart people.

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any thoughts on condi's speech last night?...

irregardless of the substance or lack thereof, i sure was impressed with her ability to handle the press questions at the end...she's great off-the cuff...just wish some of the rest of the administration appeared as competent.

still wonder why we didn't see this coming... :blink:

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I never bought this "new face of Russia" bit that's been pushed on us since '91. They're still a bunch of creeps over there, and always have been.

Throughout history, Russia's been the national equivalent of a bad cold that just keeps coming back, serving no purpose but the spread of its own misery to places abroad.

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I never bought this "new face of Russia" bit that's been pushed on us since '91. They're still a bunch of creeps over there, and always have been.

Throughout history, Russia's been the national equivalent of a bad cold that just keeps coming back, serving no purpose but the spread of its own misery to places abroad.

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=bigot

  Bigot \Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once

	 given to the Normans in France. Of unknown origin; possibly

	 akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre de bigote a man of

	 spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to appall.

	 Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same

	 source as Beguine, Beghard.]

	 [1913 Webster]

	 1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

		[1913 Webster]


	 2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of

		religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or

		opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable

		or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is

		intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in

		politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to

		his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

		[1913 Webster]


			  To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder

			  and believe.						  --Macaulay.

		[1913 Webster]



From WordNet (r) 2.0 :


  bigot

	   n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions

		   differing from his own

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I never bought this "new face of Russia" bit that's been pushed on us since '91. They're still a bunch of creeps over there, and always have been.

Throughout history, Russia's been the national equivalent of a bad cold that just keeps coming back, serving no purpose but the spread of its own misery to places abroad.

please, keep your opinion about my nation to yourself. you have absolutely no right to call us "creeps"

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Anybody who pays attention to what is actually going on will realize that the Ossetians are fleeing into Russian territory. They certainly would not be doing that if they thought the Russians were the aggressors.

This statement doesn't make any sense. The Russians support the Ossetian separatists, the majority of Ossetians have russian passports, where would they go?

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Doesn't stop everyone else from bitching about our country...

And in any case, he has the right to. The question is should he..

no, he absolutely shouldn't. we've got crap to say about their country too, yet we do not, because we respect other countries' authorities. they, on the other hand, see themselves as the GODS of the world. yes, they are strong and everything, but there is such thing as diplomacy - cut those idiotic steretypes and let's try to work out the real problems.

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I'm hearing a lot of conflicting information on this. Some people are claiming that accounts of atrocities are grossly exaggerated, or completely fabricated. Human Rights Watch said earlier today that they believe the number of fatalities was significantly inflated. Bear in mind that lies, distortions and other forms of disinformation are just as much weapons of war as are bombs and guns.

What is the difference between the Russian invasion of Hungary in 1956, of Czechoslovakia in 1968 and what is happening now? I was just reading about someone who left Georgia the other day when war broke out. She did not flee to Russia.

The way it looks right now, Bush is sending US troops to provide "humanitarian aid". His rhetoric implies that Russia is the aggressor, and that the troops are going in to 'protect civilians' from the Russian military.

Anybody who pays attention to what is actually going on will realize that the Ossetians are fleeing into Russian territory. They certainly would not be doing that if they thought the Russians were the aggressors.

It's a power play so Russia can annex the Ossetian territory. Russia has issued Russian passports in some cases to those citizens in the "free" states where theire military tanks reportedly have invaded the territory. So if they are "fleeing" to Russia, did they have a choice now that the Ossetian land has been bombarded? And these Ossetians who are "fleeing", are they civilians or the recently mobilized military "peacekeeping" forces?

Edited by eternal light
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What is the difference between the Russian invasion of Hungary in 1956, of Czechoslovakia in 1968 and what is happening now? I was just reading about someone who left Georgia the other day when war broke out. She did not flee to Russia.

are you calling the current "invasion" the peacekeeping mission agreed to by BOTH the Georgian and the Russian governments?

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are you calling the current "invasion" the peacekeeping mission agreed to by BOTH the Georgian and the Russian governments?

I'm questioning the validity of the propaganda that has lately been reported. My neighbors escaped through the mine fields of Hungary when Russian invaded in 1956, and I am not stupid about the way that works. What can you tell me about the Russian KGB?

Tbilisi is adamant that there can be no compromise over South Ossetia being part of Georgia. It firmly resists Ossetian separatism, shunning the use of the name South Ossetia which it sees as implying political bonds with North Ossetia, and therefore as a threat to Georgia's territorial integrity.

As far as Georgia is concerned, the use of the word "north" in the title North Ossetia is misleading. In Tbilisi's eyes, the region of Russia which bears that name is the only Ossetia. It prefers to call South Ossetia, which is part of the Georgian province of Shida Kartli, by the ancient name of Samachablo or, more recently, Tskhinvali region.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_...les/3797729.stm

Edited by eternal light
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no, he absolutely shouldn't. we've got crap to say about their country too, yet we do not, because we respect other countries' authorities. they, on the other hand, see themselves as the GODS of the world. yes, they are strong and everything, but there is such thing as diplomacy - cut those idiotic steretypes and let's try to work out the real problems.
Speaking of stereotypes, you say us Americans find ourselves as GODS of the world? Where in the hell do you get off...and this is right after you say no one should bitch about your country.

Practice what you preach

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updated 19 minutes ago

GORI, Georgia - Georgia’s president said Thursday that a column of Russian tanks and other vehicles was moving toward the country’s second-largest city, and that Russian forces controlled a third of Georgian territory.

Mikhail Saakashvili, speaking to foreign reporters in the capital in an appeal for international help, said the convoy was about halfway between the western cities of Senaki and Kutaisi, the nation's No. 2 city.

“We have no idea what they’re doing,” Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said of the Russian column. “One explanation could be they are trying to rattle the civilian population.”

Late Thursday, the Georgian government said the Russian convoy had come to a halt.

There was no immediate response from Russia to the claims. Both sides have made conflicting statements since fighting broke out Aug. 7, when Georgia sought to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

According to two defense officials, the latest Pentagon information does not show any major movement by Russian troops or tanks Thursday. The officials said that if tanks were moving toward Kutaisi, the Russian troops might be headed to South Ossetia — where they’re supposed to be going.

The developments came on a day that Russian troops searched selected cities, forests and fields in Georgia looking for military equipment abandoned by Georgian forces during the week-old war. And Russia’s foreign minister declared Georgia could “forget about” regaining two separatist provinces.

The situation presented a huge challenge to the EU-sponsored cease-fire agreement designed to end the fighting. The accord had envisioned Russian and Georgian forces returning to their original positions.

In Washington, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said he saw no need to invoke American military force in the fighting but warned that U.S.-Russian relations could suffer lasting damage if Moscow doesn't retreat.

"The United States spent 45 years working very hard to avoid a military confrontation with Russia," said Gates. "I see no reason to change that approach today."

As Russia's president met in the Kremlin with separatist leaders, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters: "One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state."

The Bush administration said it will ignore such "bluster."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/

Edited by eternal light
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What Obama has to say about the conflict:

KAILUA, Hawaii — Senator Barack Obama, on vacation on the island of Oahu, emerged today to issue this statement on the situation between Russia and Georgia. He made the remarks from the palm-tree lined driveway of his vacation home here. Here is his statement as delivered:

I want to just speak briefly about the situation in Georgia. It’s a situation that continues to deteriorate because of Russia’s escalation of the use of military force. At this point I have spoken to President Saakashvili, and conveyed my deep regret over the loss of life, and the suffering of the people of Georgia.

For many months, I have warned that there needs to be active international engagement to peacefully address the disputes over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, including a high-level and neutral international mediator, and a genuine international peacekeeping force – not simply Russian troops.

No matter how this conflict started, Russia has escalated it well beyond the dispute over South Ossetia and has now violated the space of another country. Russia has escalated its military campaign through strategic bombing and the movement of its ground forces into the heart of Georgia. There is no possible justification for these attacks.

I reiterate my call for Russia to stop its bombing campaign, to stop flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and to withdraw its ground forces from Georgia. The Georgian government has proposed a cease-fire and the Russian government should accept it. There is also an urgent need for humanitarian assistance to reach the people of Georgia, and casualties on both sides.

The United States, Europe and all other concerned countries must stand united in condemning this aggression, and seeking a peaceful resolution to this crisis. We should continue to push for a United Nations Security Council Resolution calling for an immediate end to the violence. This is a clear violation of the sovereignty and internationally recognized borders of Georgia – the UN must stand up for the sovereignty of its members, and peace in the world.

I welcome the visit of the French and Finnish foreign ministers to Georgia as a first step toward mediation. There should also be a United Nations mediator to address this crisis, and the United States should fully support this effort. We should also convene other international forums to condemn this aggression, to call for an immediate halt to the violence, and to review multilateral and bilateral arrangements with Russia, including Russia’s interest in joining the World Trade Organization.

The violence taking place along the Black Sea is just miles from Sochi, the site for the Winter Olympics in 2014. It only adds to the tragedy and outrage of the current situation that Russia has acted while the world has come together in peace and athletic competition in Beijing. This action is wholly inconsistent with the Olympic ideal.

While returning to a pre-August 8th military posture is a necessary first step towards resolving this crisis, we cannot tolerate the unacceptable status quo that led to this escalation. That means Russian peacekeeping troops should be replaced by a genuine international peacekeeping force, Georgia should refrain from using force in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and a political settlement must be reached that addresses the status of these disputed regions.

Going forward, the United States and Europe must support the people of Georgia. Beyond immediate humanitarian assistance, we must provide economic assistance, and help rebuild what has been destroyed. I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a membership action plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship.

The relationship between Russia and the West is long and complicated. There have been many turning points, for good and ill. This is another turning point.

Let me be clear: we seek a future of cooperative engagement with the Russian government, and friendship with the Russian people. We want Russia to play its rightful role as a great nation, but with that role comes the responsibility to act as a force for progress in this new century, not regression to the conflicts of the past. That is why the United States and the international community must speak out strongly against this aggression, and for peace and security.

Mr. Obama declined to take questions afterward. Earlier today, the Illinois senator’s Republican opponent, Senator John McCain, also talked about the situation while campaigning in Erie, Pa.

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While returning to a pre-August 8th military posture is a necessary first step towards resolving this crisis, we cannot tolerate the unacceptable status quo that led to this escalation. That means Russian peacekeeping troops should be replaced by a genuine international peacekeeping force, Georgia should refrain from using force in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and a political settlement must be reached that addresses the status of these disputed regions.

Going forward, the United States and Europe must support the people of Georgia. Beyond immediate humanitarian assistance, we must provide economic assistance, and help rebuild what has been destroyed. I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a membership action plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship.

The relationship between Russia and the West is long and complicated. There have been many turning points, for good and ill. This is another turning point.

Let me be clear: we seek a future of cooperative engagement with the Russian government, and friendship with the Russian people. We want Russia to play its rightful role as a great nation, but with that role comes the responsibility to act as a force for progress in this new century, not regression to the conflicts of the past. That is why the United States and the international community must speak out strongly against this aggression, and for peace and security.

Sounds like a plan.

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Video - Russia-Georgia - Why You Should Care

Of the more than 100,000 people the U.N. refugee agency says have been uprooted by the conflict, an estimated 30,000 have fled across the border into Russia. About twice as many have gone the other direction, toward the Georgian capital.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26206516

It's been said that Moscow felt shamed into proving its clout.

Edited by eternal light
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Speaking of stereotypes, you say us Americans find ourselves as GODS of the world? Where in the hell do you get off...and this is right after you say no one should bitch about your country.

Practice what you preach

Hi All,

Well, now why all this hatred, surely someone can say something about your country that although you may not like, but is the truth. America, Georgia and Russia are all to blame on what has happened, but it is the governments not us the people that should carry that blame. The only people to suffer when this sort of think happens are the innocent.

Now Russia has Putin in control, an ex KGB man, there was always a chance that the Russian government would want to regain it's lost territory, and the Americia government would act exactly the same if it happened to them.

Wether it's Russia, Georgia or Americia who started it, it's all about oil, and oil is money. So please people of this forum wise up, don't fall out with one and other, kiss and make up or shake hands, because we the ordinary people are not the guilty one's here, it's our governments.

Regards, Danny

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I think that Georgia and Russia should take responsibility for their actions. As for blaming America, I suppose that the world would not know what to do if it did not have America to use as a scapegoat for nearly everything.

Wise up man, the American CIA has had it's fingers in almost every dirty war since WW2, you ain't the 7th Cavalry comming to rescue the Wagon Train full of settlers from the Redskins anymore. We've seen "Soldier Blue", we know what your government is capable off, the lies and not taking credit for all the wrongs that it has done.

The Americian government is in there somewhere, with it's little friend Israel, stiring things up, just so it can get it's hands on someone elses oil, oh sorry it's your oil isn't it, that's why Americia is there, to make sure no one gets it's oil, right.

Regards, Danny

PS, where was Americia when the genocide was happening in Rwanda, what none of your oil there?

Edited by BIGDAN
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If you don't mind having the Kremlin control Europe's oil supply, be my guest. Say hello to their tanks.

As for Rwanda, it was perhaps the Europeans who went in there to teach the natives how to be modern, and in doing so aggravated tribal tensions without realizing it. Those tensions then exploded. I doubt that the United States caused the problem in Rwanda.

The first known inhabitants of Rwanda were the Twa. The Hutu, probably from the Congo Basin, were well established by the 15th century, when the Tutsi came down from the north and conquered the area. The Tutsi kings, or mwamis, became the absolute monarchs of the region. Their rule was enforced by chiefs and subchiefs, who each ruled an umusozi, a fiefdom that consisted of a single hill. Political and economic relations were based on an unequal feudal relationship, known as the ubuhake system, in which the Hutu became a caste of serfs forced into subjugation and economic dependency by the Tutsi. This caste system was rigidly upheld, and intermarriage was almost nonexistent. A similar feudal system was dominant in Burundi.

A Foreign Rule

In 1858 John Hanning Speke was the first European to visit the area. German explorers arrived in the 1880s, and Roman Catholic clergy established missions in the area. Later in the decade Rwanda (then called Ruanda) and Burundi (then called Urundi) were incorporated into German East Africa. The indigenous rulers maintained good relations with the Germans, and later, with the Belgians, who occupied the country during World War I (1914-1918). After the war the area was mandated to Belgium by the League of Nations and became known as the Territory of Ruanda-Urundi. Following World War II (1939-1945) it became a United Nations (UN) trust territory. The Belgians continued previous policies of supporting education by missionaries and of ruling through the Tutsi chiefs. However, they also forced the Tutsi to phase out the ubuhake system by 1958.

As political consciousness increased among Africans after World War II, the Hutu grew more vocal in protesting the political and social inequalities in Rwanda. In 1959 the antagonism between Tutsi and Hutu erupted into violence; the next year the Tutsi king fled the country, and an exodus of some 200,000 Tutsi followed.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560996_6/Rwanda.html

Edited by eternal light
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Hi all,

Hi All,

Well, now why all this hatred, surely someone can say something about your country that although you may not like, but is the truth. America, Georgia and Russia are all to blame on what has happened, but it is the governments not us the people that should carry that blame. The only people to suffer when this sort of think happens are the innocent.

Now Russia has Putin in control, an ex KGB man, there was always a chance that the Russian government would want to regain it's lost territory, and the Americia government would act exactly the same if it happened to them.

Wether it's Russia, Georgia or Americia who started it, it's all about oil, and oil is money. So please people of this forum wise up, don't fall out with one and other, kiss and make up or shake hands, because we the ordinary people are not the guilty one's here, it's our governments.Regards, Danny

Danny,me boy,let's call you out on the carpet,you have done this too many times.How and when did America,and I'd like some facts ,start this? :blink:

KB

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If you don't mind having the Kremlin control Europe's oil supply, be my guest. Say hello to their tanks.

As for Rwanda, it was perhaps the Dutch who went in there to teach the natives how to be modern, and in doing so aggravated tribal tensions without realizing it. Those tensions then exploded. I doubt that the United States caused the problem in Rwanda.

I didn't say Americia caused the problem in Rwanda, it was a Belgium colony before it got it's independence. The tension in that country started when Belgium favoured one tribe the Tutsis over the other tribe the Hutu's. What I meant is that when there is a conflict in the world, unless there is something to protect then nobody wants to know.

Why does Americia want to help Georgia? because of humanitarian desire or is it to do with the oil pipeline to Turkey?

As for the Kremlin controling Europe's oil, well the oil and gas we use does come mainly from Russia wether I mind or not. And as for saying hello to their tank's, well we have said hello to your's since 1943, 65 years, and lets not forget that the US came to help Europe for it's own sake rether than some sort of benevolence towards the European People.

If Hitler had won the second world war we all know that Americia would have done business with him and cared less what was happening to the people under his control.

Regards, Danny

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