Led Zeppelin and Religion: A fan's perspective

[DAS]

What I really have here is a question for two types of people I'm sure are on the board. The devoutly religious and the devoutly non-religious. This is not a question for people who don't care either way. And here it is:

To the non-religious: How do you feel about the religious content in Led Zeppelin's songs? Does it bother you to listen to songs like In My Time Of Dying and Nobody's Fault But Mine (as well as various things in medleys such as John Paul Jones playing Amazing Grace) or do you just not listen to these songs?

To the religious: How do you feel about the pagan content in Led Zeppelin's songs? Does it bother you to listen to songs like Immigrant Song and Achilles Last Stand or do you just not listen to these songs?

[zeptastic]

Weird...i thought immigrant song was about...vikings. :s anyway im religious i would say and i dont mind it at all! I listen to all led zeppelin songs!

[bluecongo]

God gave us Led Zeppelin. Enjoy.

[joe (Liverpool)]

I had Catholicism drummed into me when I was younger, now I don't believe in any religion, I listen to Zeppelin songs because I like them, I've never thought of them as religious.

[ledzepslave]

I'm southern baptist, both my parent's sides of the family are devout christians, and so am i, but led zeppelin has so much more meaning in their songs than religeous and pagan reference, it's something that's real, and whether you believe in God or not, their lyrics will always reach your heart

[DAS]

Immigrant song talks about the Norse gods and religious beliefs (hammer of the gods, Valhalla I am coming).

In My Time Of Dying is a song sung to Jesus. Singing about religion is one think but singing to a particular deity is a far as one can go into religion. It's basically a prayer.

Nobody's Fault But Mine is an adaption of a hymn.

[henrybonzo]

get over it man, this is how wars start!

those songs were written by bluesmen from the religious south, it does not bother me and anyone who doesnt listen to those songs is as bad as those morons who tool Lennons statement about the Beatles and Jesus out of context, and where exactly did the uproar start and end? The Bible belt of AMERICA, no where else in the world did anyone give a shit!

[DAS]

get over it man, this is how wars start!

Get over what? I was just curious how people view songs that contradict their worldviews. So far everyone has been very civilized and reasonable. I don't see a problem with wondering what an atheist would think of a song sung to Jesus by their favorite band or a religious person hearing them sing about other gods. And personally I don't have a problem with people not enjoying songs for those reasons. After all it's doubtful an atheist could relate to something like In My Time Of Dying. That doesn't make them bad people.

[LedZeppfan77]

I am Catholic and I am a believer. I do like the words in In My Time Of Dying. "Meet me Jesus meet me, ooh meet me in the middle of the air. If my wings should fail me lord, please meet me with another pair". Classic. Fabulous.

[Honeybrown1976]

I'm Christian and it doesn't bother me.

[magerogue]

Depends on what you mean by religion. One might assume that it's automatically prejurative, but it isn't.

In Zeppelin there's not really a religious thing in the songs, it's just about singing the blues, since their idols from the 1940's etc... sang about Jesus and all that stuff they went on to do what they like. It doesn't mean they are obligating people to believe in anything. It's music.

I always found Zeppelin a mythological enthusiast band, haha...

Nah, but it really doesn't matter as long as you enjoy it. George Harrison was a spiritual songwritter, and I love his music, but I don't need to believe in god to listen to his music.

I do find all the "Love and Peace" thing funny and good.

In Zeppelin they might sing about God and jesus and those things, but I think the last thing they want to deal with is religious matters.

[Strider]

I'm agnostic-borderline atheist and it doesn't bother me one way or the other. Just as I love listening to J. S. Bach or Handel or other classical music, much of which was written for, or commissioned by, religious figures.

[kaiser]

Pagans are religious so if they're Zeppelin fans I'm guessing the pagan related content in the songs does not bother them. I'm assuming you meant every other religion that isn't pagan based, which actually there aren't many...

[FutureRockStar3]

I typed out all of these quotes word for word from a Video Expose of Led Zeppelin yesterday, and am interested to know if any of these quotes, especially the ones sourced could be varified as true by any of my fellow Led Zeppelin fans:

1. According to Richard Cole, Zeppelin's road manager, the story of Zeppelin selling their souls to Satan for power and fame actually "got started" with Page himself, as he shared with groupies who were interested in his "dark" side.

2. Cole stated, "It proclaimed that in the earliest days, the band members except for John Paul who refused to participate - had made a secret pact among themselves, selling their souls to the Devil in exchange for the band's enormous success...one of our roadies once said to me, 'I tried to broach the subject once, and Jimmy went into a rage. I'd never raise the issue again.'" (Richard Cole, Stairway to Heaven Uncensored, 1992, pg 11)

3. Abaddon, the founder of the heavy metal group Venom, stated, "If Jimmy Page had gone out and said, 'Led Zeppelin are a satantic band, and I'm a Satanist' or whatever, it would have flattened Led Zeppelin." (Baddel ey pg. 130)

4. "I feel [Crowley's] a misunderstood genius of the twentieth century. Because his whole thing was liberation of the person, of the entity, and that restriction would foul you up... a lot of the points he made can be seen to manifest themselves all down the line. His thing was total liberation and really getting down to what part you played. What you want to do, do it." (Paul Kendall, Led Zepplin: In Their Own Words, p. 100 (Quote from Jimmy Page)

5. " [Crowley] was like an eye to the world, into the forth coming situation. My studies have been quite intensive...I've employed his system in my own day to day life...And that is the way big names are made these days. Not via the press or 'Ready steady go..."(Ibid. pg. 103) (Quote from Jimmy Page)

6. Michael des Barres:

"Jimmy...was the classic rock star with the moated castle, the velvet clothes, the fabulous cars that he couldn't drive and the 80,000 rare guitars. And, like an idiot, I was dabbling with the Aleister Crowley thing at the time." (Yorke, pg 150)

7. Michael des Barres:

"I used to go down and see Jimmy at Plumpton Place and he'd pull out Crowley robes, Crowley's Tarot deck, all the Crowley that he'd collected. I thought, 'this is great!' It was so twisted and debauched, their whole thing. That is what Jimmy represented to me." (Yorke, pg 150)

8. Crowley used Boleskine as a type of satanic headquarters to summon the demons "Thoth" and "Horus." (Not Sourced)

9. Jimmy Page stated, "Yes it was owned by Aleister Crowley...Strange things have happened in that house that had nothing to do with Crowley. The bad vibes were already there." "...Of course, after Crowley there have been suicides, people carted off to mental hospitals..." (Not Sourced)

10. Jimmy Page stated, "Many is the time I just stayed home alone. I spend a lot of time near water. Crowley's house is in Loch Ness, Scotland. There were two or three owners before Crowley moved into it. It was also a church that was burned the gound with the congregation in it." (Paul Kendall, Led Zeppelin: In Their Own Words, 1981, pg. 100)

11. Jimmy Page:

"There was not one good collection of books on the occult in London, and I was tired of having to go all different places to get the books I wanted." (Hit Parader, July, 1975, pg. 64)

12. "to me, it was more important what was behind the obelisk." (Not Sourced) (Quote By Jimmy Page Describing Cover Of Presence)

13. Robert Plant:

"The name Led Zeppelin means a failure, and Swan Song means a last gasp...so why not name our record label that?" (Eddie McSquare, Led Zeppelin: Good Times Bad Times, 1991, pg. 57) (Quote From Robert Plant)

14. Crowley referred to "the divine Swan" writing, "and the wild swan sings...and my heart sings..." (The Electric Silence)

15. Jimmy Was Casting His Spell." (Stephen Davis, Hammer of the Gods, pg. 128)

16. That Was Instructed - But Under A Strict Cloak Of Secrecy (Ramble Four Interview)

17. "Sacrifice cattle, little and big; after a child...Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them...The best blood is of the...fresh blood of a child..." (Aleister Crowley, The Book of the Law, 1976, pg. 48- 59) (While Showing Picture Inside Houses of the Holy Album Booklet)

18. "But the bloody sacrifice, though more dangerous, is more efficacious; and for nearly all purposes human sacrifice is the best." (Aleister Crowley, Magick: In Theory and Practice, 1973, pg. 220)

19. "The animal should therefore be killed within the circle...For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim." (Ibid. pg 219) (While Showing Picture Inside Houses of the Holy Album Booklet)

20. "Turning counter-clockwise, the priest points with the sword to each cardinal point of the compass and calls forth the respective Princes of Hell: Satan from the south, Lucifer from the east, Belial from the north, and Leviathan from the west." (Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible, pg. 131)

21. "contact with...demons, spirits." (Crowley, Magick, inside sleeve) (Quote From Jimmy Page)

22. "Jimmy spent his days in his suite with the shades drawn and candles lit...He spent his days and nights wide awake, holding his guitar...'waiting for something to come through.'" (Hammer of the Gods, Stephen Davis, pg. 242)

http://theater.goodfight.org/ (Type in Led Zeppelin, then click on it to view it to understand the above quotes in more detail and beyond what I provided.)

[DAS]

Well collected but your sources are not very good.

On Hammer Of The Gods:

Jimmy Page:

I think I opened [the book] up in the middle somewhere and started to read it, and I just threw it out the window. I was living by a river then, so it actually found its way to the bottom of the sea.

Robert Plant:

He (Davis) did a lot of investigations with a guy who used to work with Led Zeppelin, Richard Cole, who, over the years, had shown deep frustration at not being in a position to have any authority at all. He was tour manager and he had a problem which could have been easily solved if he'd been given something intelligent to do rather than check the hotels, and I think it embittered him greatly. He became progressively unreliable and, sadly, became a millstone around the neck of the group. These stories would filter out from girls who'd supposedly been in my room when in fact they'd been in his. That sort of atmosphere was being created, and we were quite tired of it. So eventually we relieved him of his position and in the meantime he got paid a lot of money for talking crap. A lot of the time he wasn't completely well. And so his view of things was permanently distorted one way or another.

[betteremily]

1. According to Richard Cole, Zeppelin's road manager, the story of Zeppelin selling their souls to Satan for power and fame actually "got started" with Page himself, as he shared with groupies who were interested in his "dark" side.

Honestly, I wouldn't completely write off what Cole is saying here. There is a quote by Page where he says something to the effect of "I don't want anything I do to be respectable." And, as I've expressed on the forum before there is a very queer...irony... in the word ZOSO. Granted, the symbol itself came out an occult book but when looking at it from a numerological angle there is something that points in the same direction.

I don't buy the groupie excuse though. You really think they had to actually WORK at getting laid?

3. Abaddon, the founder of the heavy metal group Venom, stated, "If Jimmy Page had gone out and said, 'Led Zeppelin are a satantic band, and I'm a Satanist' or whatever, it would have flattened Led Zeppelin." (Baddel ey pg. 130)

Yes, it is better business to keep people guessing.

4. "I feel [Crowley's] a misunderstood genius of the twentieth century. Because his whole thing was liberation of the person, of the entity, and that restriction would foul you up... a lot of the points he made can be seen to manifest themselves all down the line. His thing was total liberation and really getting down to what part you played. What you want to do, do it." (Paul Kendall, Led Zepplin: In Their Own Words, p. 100 (Quote from Jimmy Page)

The guy was a nutjob, IMO. The only things he said of value are what people have been saying since man began to express philosophical thought.

5. " [Crowley] was like an eye to the world, into the forth coming situation. My studies have been quite intensive...I've employed his system in my own day to day life...And that is the way big names are made these days. Not via the press or 'Ready steady go..."(Ibid. pg. 103) (Quote from Jimmy Page)

I believe it, really.

6. Michael des Barres:

"Jimmy...was the classic rock star with the moated castle, the velvet clothes, the fabulous cars that he couldn't drive and the 80,000 rare guitars. And, like an idiot, I was dabbling with the Aleister Crowley thing at the time." (Yorke, pg 150)

Sounds like a hoarder to me.

therefore be killed within the circle...For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim." (Ibid. pg 219) (While Showing Picture Inside Houses of the Holy Album Booklet)

I love how murder, err I mean, "sacrifice" is divinity. What a riot!!

And to the opening post:

No, I don't mind. I am totally against religion, but I know there is God.

It's funny, no one complained about Black Sabbath singing about God. In fact, they got the

Satanist label too, didn't they? Interesting question DAS.

http://www.lyricsfre...r_20019384.html

[Walter]

Well collected but your sources are not very good

Robert Plant:

He (Davis) did a lot of investigations with a guy who used to work with Led Zeppelin, Richard Cole, who, over the years, had shown deep frustration at not being in a position to have any authority at all. He was tour manager and he had a problem which could have been easily solved if he'd been given something intelligent to do rather than check the hotels, and I think it embittered him greatly. He became progressively unreliable and, sadly, became a millstone around the neck of the group. These stories would filter out from girls who'd supposedly been in my room when in fact they'd been in his. That sort of atmosphere was being created, and we were quite tired of it. So eventually we relieved him of his position and in the meantime he got paid a lot of money for talking crap. A lot of the time he wasn't completely well. And so his view of things was permanently distorted one way or another.

If Richard Cole was such a hated villain of the band when all was said and done, why was he a backstage guest at the 02 reunion concert?

[FutureRockStar3]

Thanks for your feedback on some of those quotes I was asking about DAS and betteremily, and am looking forward to hearing feedback on the rest of them!

They have an entire video expose of Black Sabbath and Ozzy Osbourne as well betteremily. I just haven't collected the quotes yet, but I will.

There is also a video about "Stairway to Heaven" that I'll get to also. They play parts of the song backwards, and you can hear the satanic messages if you listen closely. I'm sure the majority of you already knew about the hidden messages in the song to begin with, haha!

[DAS]

I didn't hear anything about Cole being a villain. Just (at times) a bad employee. And even if he was a villain I see no problem allowing him to attend O2 because he was a significant player in backstage events the first time around.

Also, I personally write off all accounts of Satan granting wish as silly superstition and wives tales. If there was an evil genie running around then why do all the heavy metal bands who worship him not make it big? Why don't more people win the lottery since I'm sure there would be a lot of takers. Superstitious hocus pokus.

[Walter]

You were discrediting the "FutureRockStar3" post because his source "wasn't very good" and cited a quote from Robert Plant who blames Richard Cole as the person whom Stephen Davis used to write false stories about Zeppelin and their antics on tour as well their involvement in the occult. That would define Cole as a villain, based on Robert's quote.

Add to that what Jimmy said about the book and you have to wonder why they would invite someone they feel sold out the band, to make a buck based on a bunch of lies, to their reunion show....or haven't sued him for straying so far from the truth.

I don't think Richard Cole has been proven to be a source that is "not very good".

[DAS]

The source I was talking about was the book itself. Not the source's source. The band members have claimed the book is BS. I'm not one for conspiracies and looking for the "Real Truth." If they say it's no good it's not as far as I'm concerned. That doesn't mean everything in the book is wrong. But every time someone tries to make silly claims about devils and evil and so forth they always appeal to the same source which is not credible.

[Walter]

Understood. I was referring to the quote you used from Robert to prove your point.

[Knebby]

If Richard Cole was such a hated villain of the band when all was said and done, why was he a backstage guest at the 02 reunion concert?

All of the band had separate guest lists. Cole's presence does NOT indicate that he is completely welcome in the "fold" again, though I do think that all of the members have mellowed over the years and adopted something of a "life's too short" philosophy, preferring to focus on the good times rather than the bad.

[Knebby]

There is also a video about "Stairway to Heaven" that I'll get to also. They play parts of the song backwards, and you can hear the satanic messages if you listen closely. I'm sure the majority of you already knew about the hidden messages in the song to begin with, haha!

I'm sorry if you've been mis-led into thinking that Zeppelin put "backwards messages" into their music. They really didn't. To paraphrase Robert, if they were going to go to all the trouble of doing that, the messages would have been "Buy our records".

[SteveAJones]

You were discrediting the "FutureRockStar3" post because his source "wasn't very good" and cited a quote from Robert Plant who blames Richard Cole as the person whom Stephen Davis used to write false stories about Zeppelin and their antics on tour as well their involvement in the occult. That would define Cole as a villain, based on Robert's quote.

Add to that what Jimmy said about the book and you have to wonder why they would invite someone they feel sold out the band, to make a buck based on a bunch of lies, to their reunion show....or haven't sued him for straying so far from the truth.

I don't think Richard Cole has been proven to be a source that is "not very good".

Richard Cole is not only a great source but was often an eyewitness. That's not to say he's infallable or his recollections 100% correct with regard to trivia (dates, places, venues, etc) but there's no question Peter Grant, if not the band, had the utmost faith & confidence in him for over a decade. Think about it: PETER GRANT felt Richard was THE man for the job.

They're all aware Cole was a primary source for Hammer of the Gods and why he did so at the time. We're all aware of what they think of that book. Didn't make him a villain now or then, makes him human (we all do things in life we may regret later).

Besides - to bring this back on topic - the occult exaggerations in that book were the work of the author (Davis) not Cole.