JTM Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Loud and clear! I don't believe you when you say that "All gods have been proven to not exist". There is no way to prove that god does exist or that god doesn't exist. The FACT that that there is no way to prove god exists is proof of the non-existence of a god. "There has never been a god - there will never be a god - there is no god." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Well I would agree that proof there is a God is all around us...yes. However, proof of which one? Now that's a whole 'nother question. Like I said, even the Big Bang theory doesn't account for who/what pushed the "Big Bang" button. Ha Ha ... a button............. Buttons had'nt been invented, dont'cha know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The FACT that that there is no way to prove god exists is proof of the non-existence of a god. "There has never been a god - there will never be a god - there is no god." Interesting you say that. Why do you believe such a thing? Is it because someone told you? Well what proof did they show you? Or did you prove it yourself? If so, what you said is hardly a scientific proof. It's just a statement that doesn't hold up any more than a religious text does. Ha Ha ... a button............. Buttons had'nt been invented, dont'cha know. Well that's the point. How does one contemplate what happened before the start of existence? My answer is that there must be something that occurs outside of existence as we know it. Something that we can never understand. And how do go about proving something like that? You can't! I chose to have faith and not waste my time trying to prove/understand something that is impossible to do so. It seems to me that atheists don't waste their time either, and chose not to believe in something that is impossible to prove. The whole point of God is that we can't understand it. Religion and faith are our human attempts at it though. If we could understand God, meaning if we knew everything God did, then we'd be just as powerful, so it makes sense for it to be impossible to gain such knowledge of the existence of God. But are we wrong for trying? Not any more wrong than someone might be for not trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~tangerine~ Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I'm sure you're having a little fun there, but there actually might be something to look into there! Yes i was joking, but of course there could be truth to your statement, too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The whole point of God is that we can't understand it. Religion and faith are our human attempts at it though. If we could understand God, meaning if we knew everything God did, then we'd be just as powerful, so it makes sense for it to be impossible to gain such knowledge of the existence of God. Phew... You're all over the place.. ... .. Have you been hittin' the peruvian marching powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59LesPaul Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Well he cracks me right up every time he opens his mouth, so I don't see what the problem with Keith is It's not a problem with him so much as it's a problem with peoples' reaction to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~tangerine~ Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 That's sort of my point. If there is nothing after you die, then there's no way you're gonna get screwed for not picking a religion. But there is no way to prove that there's nothing, just as there is no way to prove that there is anything! Now if you pick the "wrong" one, and the "right" one is gonna screw you over for doing so, then at least you tried!? Picking atheism is like not responding at all. It's like being asked a question and not saying anything, or not filling in any answers on an exam. If the exam doesn't exist, then it's no problem. But if it does, you'd better answer! As far as which one to pick, you have to do your own personal multiple choice or fill in the blank. Something that is relevant to you? I can't answer that for you, and I'm not going to try to convert you to my religion. My point is there is no afterlife. If i'm wrong and there is, WE WILL ALL BE WELCOME INTO THE SAME PLACE, regardless of race/culture/sex/religious beliefs, etc. I feel my life is full without religion being a part of it. I am giving my daughter an outstanding education at a Synogogue/Pre-school. If she chooses to continue with a religious education when she is old enough to make that decision, i will support her. btw...her school not only has Jewish children, but Catholic/Christian/Indian and Blacks attending, and they are taught about Jewish holidays and traditions as part of the curriculm. I am sure, they still practice their own faith, but have an added benefit of learning of another. Does this give them twice as good a chance of getting into the afterlife Being an atheist (not believing in God) is not leaving anything blank. It's using what i consider to be logical thought. Man made up religion (and one supreme being) to alleviate their fear of the unknown. I have no problem believing all this is here out of plain old "matter". Look at the concept of time. It's mind boggling...and the lifeforms on other galaxies we can't even see likely believe in things much different than us, lol. Do they go somewhere else when they die? If you look at time, you will see we are really just a very tiny spot in it, kind of like what a knat is to us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlaxle 56 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I would think Agnosticism is the one that is like leaving the answer blank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Nope, nothing here..... Then there couldn't be anyway.Ok you missed my point. Maybe if you write a book about your "proof" you will become someone famous.You also missed my point. Well I would agree that proof there is a God is all around us...yes. However, proof of which one? Now that's a whole 'nother question. Like I said, even the Big Bang theory doesn't account for who/what pushed the "Big Bang" button. This is a great post. I feel the same way. I just happen to believe in the Christian version of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Well I would agree that proof there is a God is all around us...yes. However, proof of which one? Now that's a whole 'nother question. Like I said, even the Big Bang theory doesn't account for who/what pushed the "Big Bang" button. The fact that the laws of physics seem to be fine tuned to create a "complex" universe suitable for life rather than say one full of blackholes or evenly distributed sub atomic particals is interesting. The other answer is of course that there are infinate paralell universes with infinate different laws so its no coincidense that we live in the one suitable for life since those codictions are needed for us to exist in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankly Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Well I would agree that proof there is a God is all around us...yes. However, proof of which one? Now that's a whole 'nother question. Like I said, even the Big Bang theory doesn't account for who/what pushed the "Big Bang" button. By suggesting that someone (presumably God?) pushed the button, you are merely forcing the question back further - ie who created God? If the answer is that God has always been there, why is it not possible that the universe has always been there? - or at least the conditions that created the big bang. By suggesting a more complicated solution, you are adding to the problem, not answering it. I don't agree that proof of God is all around us - there is no proof of God that I can see. I'm no expert on quantum physics, but my understanding is that random events happen all the time- radioactive decay for example, and at the subatomic level, particles come into existence and pop back out again and can only be located by probability. If the conditions for the big bang have always existed, one of these random events may have triggered it. It makes more sense to me than making up a being of higher intelligence to start things off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Random events like Radioactive Decay do not account for the enormous amount of energy required to start the creation of the Universe within seconds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 HAHA, no matter how you put it, EVERYTHING is culture. Which is actually truth for everyone out there wishing for such truths. Culture is involved in everything related to human activity. When you say that each culture has it's own language, that's not true! To prove my point---Canadian culture has a couple major languages that I can think of, French and English. American culture has English, but Spanish is becoming very prevalent. While language makes up a big part of culture, it does not restrict it. So yes, Christianity is a culture. Either you, Peggy, or Webster got it wrong. You could say that each Christian religion is it's own culture, but you can't restrict it to language, for I have showed you that you can't. Judaism is a culture, but it is also a religion. Your theory about language also doesn't apply to Catholicism, for Catholicism has no official language. Catholics beleive in "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church" It means: One - unified Holy - God's Catholic - universal Apostolic - started by apostles and carried down the years from them. I want to underline the "Catholic" part: Catholic means: 1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal. 2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all. 3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church. It's called the Catholic Church, because it seeks to include all langua-cultures in a universal, "everyone included" manner. That's why today in the Catholic church, the mass is said in the people's language, and not latin, which is what most uninformed folks think is the official religion of the Catholic Church. It's not---the official religion is yours. No, you missed my point (though you've definitely read my posts, and I really appreciate that ). By its literal definition, Judaism is a Culture. America, Canada, etc, are not cultures, they are countries. You also didn't talk about the rest of the requirements: -A country (or state; whatever you call it) -It's own food/food laws -Dress -Tradition -People -Views -Music -Lineage Catholicism, by tradition, also has all of these. And I can say that with 100% certainty because my Mom's dad is a Deacon (my Mom's side of the family is very Catholic). Latin, despite not being used anymore, is, in fact, Catholicism's language. It has it's own country/state (Rome/Italy), its own lineage, it's own dress (granted, only amongst nuns, monks, clergy, etc), it's own traditions, and, yes, even its own food. Obviously I'm not talking about today or the way Catholicism/Judaism is today. I'm talking about traditionally and by the literal definition. I hate these genetic definitions of things like race and religion. If you have descended from any Jewish ancestors then yes, you're part Jewish. That doesn't mean you have to be Jewish. You can be whatever you want. In the general context of things, yes, you are absolutely correct. However. her question was regarding Jewish tradition, and so I gave her the answer in that context. My faith meter is coming up "bullshit" (not you--THEM). You and me both. Any particular Christian religions you're talking about (not lumping Christian faiths together)? Namely Evangelicals, Born Agains, ultra-fanatical Baptist groups (Westboro Baptist Church, some Southern Baptist churches etc), etc. Pretty much the ultra Right Wing fanatical sects. You don't like Billy Joel do you? His piano-centric stuff (Piano Man, Entertainer, Captain Jack, Lullabye, Scenes from an Italian Restaurant, etc), but I don't get the brownie points because I don't get the reference. ... Nathan's post #187 on page 10 I don't think they read your posts and I don't think they'll read mine. I do think you will. I'm guessing they're afraid that they might learn something that contradicts their beliefs and can't see past your words. You think it's possible that atheists are lazy? Even if they had the proof, they don't care enough to see it. Not lazy, no. But some are not open to the idea of faith. Some are as close-minded as any other fanatic in any other religion. ----------------------------- I just want to say, Mary, thanks for the info on the Human ABO Blood Groups. That provides some very interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankly Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Random events like Radioactive Decay do not account for the enormous amount of energy required to start the creation of the Universe within seconds... i wasn't suggesting that it did - I don't know enough about quantum physics to argue sensibly - I was merely suggesting that positing that an intelligence started things is an even more unlikely answer as it then begs the question of who created the creator? The 'God of the gaps' argument is not very strong anyway. just because we don't (currently) know the answer to something doesn't mean that the answer must be that God did it. I think it was Carl Sagan that said that any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. In other words, show something like a video camera to someone in medieval times and you'd be thought to be a magician or maybe a God. We know better and know that there is a logical, scientific answer. Hopefully, one day, there will be a logical, scientific answer to what started the universe - it may be however, that we will never know. Maybe it was just too long ago, or the science involved is too complex for us to deduce, but just because we don't know doesn't mean that we have to say 'God did it' - sometimes we have to accept that we just don't know the answer, but we should never just give in and believe it was magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Religions are doctrines of faith - FACT Agreed. ALL Religions are a belief in the one true God - FACT Absolutely incorrect. In fact, I would venture to say (I do not have the time at the moment to bring up numbers on this, though I will try in the future) that polytheistic religions (belief in many gods) outnumber monotheistic religions (belief in one god). Creationism is a belief that all if not most religions embrace - FACT Wrong again. Christianity (and fanatical Christianity) is the only religion that I know of that accepts Creationism as fact. I don't know about Islam, but I know for a fact that no Jew, not even the fanatical ones, accept Creationism as it is exactly told in the Torah. All Jews agree with the Big Bang, Evolution, and Natural Selection, just as God's tools for creation. Big Bang is a theory - FACT Evolution is a theory - FACT Theory is not what you think. It is a scientific statement based on the Scientific Method. So it is even above an educated guess, being only one step behind a proven, unshakable fact. Religion gives a lot of people comfort and is purely spiritual. Agreed. Religion has a lot to answer for in that there are people who have done evil things in God's name. Wrong. People have a lot to answer for. Religion, like any weapon, is only as dangerous as the person wielding it. All modern "western" laws were derived from the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, The Ten Commandments and that's a good thing, no? Only mostly true, but not entirely true. The Biblle and Koran etcetera are always open to some, often illogical interpretation. They are in there simplest form "life guide books". Bullseye! You hit the nail on the head with this one. This is exactly how the Bible should be read, IMO. Scientists, if as some have intimated are atheists have a lot to answer for as well. There have been many, many great things that science has provided some good and some evil. Again, that has to do with the person. Edited to say: On another board some fool started a religion on Led Zeppelin! If you are talking about Planet Zeppelin, that was started on Facebook as a joke and then brought over by the same originator by my suggestion as a joke. No one actually takes it seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankly Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Wrong again. Christianity (and fanatical Christianity) is the only religion that I know of that accepts Creationism as fact. I don't know about Islam, but I know for a fact that no Jew, not even the fanatical ones, accept Creationism as it is exactly told in the Torah. All Jews agree with the Big Bang, Evolution, and Natural Selection, just as God's tools for creation. Theory is not what you think. It is a scientific statement based on the Scientific Method. So it is even above an educated guess, being only one step behind a proven, unshakable fact. afaik, Roman catholicism accepts that evolution is true, again, as God's tools for creation. To my knowledge, The Church of England, or at least most of its adherents, also accept evolution. My wife is a devout Christian and a regular churchgoer and finds the creationist argument laughable, as do most people in the church that I know. It is really only in the USA that there is any real argument over this - evolution is a theory in name, but the weight of evidence in support is so huge that it is to all intents and purposes proven to be true. The weight of evidence continues to grow with every discovery in DNA research and there is no serious evidence that supports any other theory. You can say that the earth revolving around the sun is a theory - it seems obvious to anyone looking that the sun goes around us - but all of the evidence supports the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Is there a good explanation why God doesn't allow us to have proof of his/her existence? Really, what's up with that? Why couldn't he/she doesn't just show up so that faith is no longer required? Why is faith a requirement of all religions? If I were a God, I would sure as shit make an appearance if just to say "Hey, guys! Yes, I really exist. Now, knock it off or else!" And as far as believing in a God just because there's no proof that one doesn't exist, then does that mean Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist as well, because I'm not aware of any scientific proof that they don't exist. That doesn't make any sense does it. This is a very good question. No one really has the answer to this one. And it is something to ponder. Why doesn't God just come down and tell us what the correct religion is? Can we just get this straight, please- the whole "Athiests believe nothing will happen to them when they die" is getting on my nerves, people The fact is that I DON'T KNOW, therefore I don't give a rat's ass. What I DO know is that my body will disintegrate. If you think for a second that I find that to be lacking, think again (or not depending on how you feel about it). For fuck's sake, we are creating heaven and hell right here on earth every day. What we mean with the whole "Athiests believe nothing will happen to them when they die" is the souls. Y'all don't believe in souls, therefore y'all don't believe that after we die, we are destined for Heaven or Hell, depending on how we live our lives. Obviously, y'all know what will happen to our bodies. If I may provide a thought: I understand that for you, being worm-food and fertilizer is enough, but not for me. I have to believe in an afterlife. I have to believe that I am working towards something. I have to believe in Heaven. Why? I've had an extremely dark past. I was a very depressed child and contemplated suicide a lot. I had no friends and was a very unlucky person. And I made mistakes that I will never be able to forgive myself for. This world has been cruel to me. It has always been my family and my fear of God (in that he has something life-changing in store for me one day) that has kept me from killing myself. And a belief in something more keeps me going. My family, My Judaism, my belief in God, and my belief in Heaven have helped me combat and almost entirely get rid of my depression. I am a happier person now thanks to all of it. How can I not believe in it when that belief has saved my life? The FACT that that there is no way to prove god exists is proof of the non-existence of a god. "There has never been a god - there will never be a god - there is no god." Wrong. Absence of evidence does NOT equal evidence of absence. afaik, Roman catholicism accepts that evolution is true, again, as God's tools for creation. To my knowledge, The Church of England, or at least most of its adherents, also accept evolution. My wife is a devout Christian and a regular churchgoer and finds the creationist argument laughable, as do most people in the church that I know. It is really only in the USA that there is any real argument over this - evolution is a theory in name, but the weight of evidence in support is so huge that it is to all intents and purposes proven to be true. The weight of evidence continues to grow with every discovery in DNA research and there is no serious evidence that supports any other theory. You can say that the earth revolving around the sun is a theory - it seems obvious to anyone looking that the sun goes around us - but all of the evidence supports the opposite. I should have been more specific. I apologize. I meant that Creationism is only considered legit by certain sects of Christianity. I know most are coming to accept or already accept Evolution. But certain fanatical secs do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 ignore this post... sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankly Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I should have been more specific. I apologize. I meant that Creationism is only considered legit by certain sects of Christianity. I know most are coming to accept or already accept Evolution. But certain fanatical secs do not. It's Ok Nathan - I know what you meant - I was really backing you up i suppose - the response was more aimed at the guy who said 'Evolution is a theory' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 It's Ok Nathan - I know what you meant - I was really backing you up i suppose - the response was more aimed at the guy who said 'Evolution is a theory' Oh... Okay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Phew... You're all over the place.. ... .. Have you been hittin' the peruvian marching powder. I only wish, because then I might know what was wrong with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 i wasn't suggesting that it did - I don't know enough about quantum physics to argue sensibly - I was merely suggesting that positing that an intelligence started things is an even more unlikely answer as it then begs the question of who created the creator?Me either, so let's not The 'God of the gaps' argument is not very strong anyway. just because we don't (currently) know the answer to something doesn't mean that the answer must be that God did it. I think it was Carl Sagan that said that any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. In other words, show something like a video camera to someone in medieval times and you'd be thought to be a magician or maybe a God. We know better and know that there is a logical, scientific answer. Hopefully, one day, there will be a logical, scientific answer to what started the universe - it may be however, that we will never know. Maybe it was just too long ago, or the science involved is too complex for us to deduce, but just because we don't know doesn't mean that we have to say 'God did it' - sometimes we have to accept that we just don't know the answer, but we should never just give in and believe it was magic. i'm not saying that the only explanation for God or a deity of some kind is the start of the Big Bang. I am simply offering a possibility that some people (yes, even scientists) believe could exist...that someone/something started a chain events that led to our existence. I don't believe us to be a mistake, is what I'm saying I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankly Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Me either, so let's not i'm not saying that the only explanation for God or a deity of some kind is the start of the Big Bang. I am simply offering a possibility that some people (yes, even scientists) believe could exist...that someone/something started a chain events that led to our existence. I don't believe us to be a mistake, is what I'm saying I guess. i know what you mean - there are plenty of scientists who have religious belief and, although I'm an athiest, I can understand the argument that a God 'started things off' and then the universe went about its merry way and ended up as we are now. I happen not to believe that, but I can understand why people choose to have that belief. In many ways it fits with the beliefs of the majority of christians in Europe - although perhaps not in the USA! I find it harder to accept when people fly in the face of the evidence, such as creationism, and believe something for which there is no evidence. I don't think that we are a mistake. You could say that we are inevitable, as the conditions in the world in which we live have shaped us through evolutionary pressure to become what we are. We are not an accident, nor are we random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I'm an athiest. I don't care what other people believe as long as they leave me out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 It's not a problem with him so much as it's a problem with peoples' reaction to him. Well you might turn to stone if you look at him for more than 5 seconds, but other than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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