Mary Hartman Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 I would like to say have a gorgeous day,, one and all whatever you believe in. It is your concepts after all. I have to roll, it's a very busy day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebk Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Religions are doctrines of faith - FACT ALL Religions are a belief in the one true God - FACT Creationism is a belief that all if not most religions embrace - FACT Big Bang is a theory - FACT Evolution is a theory - FACT Religion gives a lot of people comfort and is purely spiritual. Religion has a lot to answer for in that there are people who have done evil things in Gods name. All modern "western" laws were derived from the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, The Ten Commandments and that's a good thing, no? The Biblle and Koran etcetera are always open to some, often illogical interpretation. They are in there simplest form "life guide books". Nevertheless there are many beautiful things within as well as the fire and brimstone that people mosly talk about. Scientists, if as some have intimated are atheists have a lot to answer for as well. There have been many, many great things that science has provided some good and some evil. Medicine and biological research, space exlporation and so on, too many in fact to list, have benefitted us all. However, science like religion in the wrong hands and minds have "created" terrible things that are not good for mankind. Nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. If find it it amazing that the "guys in the lab" can develop these things that can wipe out millions of people yet can't find a cure for the common cold. "The greatest trick satan played on the world was convincing them that he doesn't exist", Kaiser Sose. You either believe or you don't. I don't usually speak up in these threads, although they are quite interesting to peruse. However, the use of the word "theory" here is incorrect. Theory does not mean something people think happens. It's an actual doctrine of fact. Here are the first 3 definitions of theory from Websters: 1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another 2: abstract thought : speculation 3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory> The 1st and 3rd definitions deal in FACT. Scientific theory is, in fact, FACT. Also, in your first 3 statements about religion which you state are fact, the key words are "belief" and "faith." The FACT is, religions are all about belief and faith, not FACTS. Therefore, while all 5 of your statements are, in fact, true, they don't mean what you think they do. In fact, they mean exactly the opposite of what (I think) you want to convey. FWIW, I'm a secular Jew (or Jew-lite as I like to say). I'm agnostic at this point. I'm not anti-religion. I'm working through it. It just amazes me that you can come here and make a statement and really not be proving your point... Please folks, know what you're talking about before you come here and throw out random thoughts that really don't make any sense... And before I get flamed, this is not personal. I really do enjoy reading this board. There are a lot of very nice folks here and I hope I haven't offended any of you (or at least too many... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 If it's only 99% then it's not entirely accurate is it? My point is, because anyone can edit the information it is open to corruption. Is anything entirely accurate? No. Just because anyone can edit the information, doesn't mean that anything is wrong. They have a huge amount of moderators that constantly get rid of shit information and people are always fixing errors. Take my challenge. Go to 20 pages and try and find something simply inaccurate or flat-out false. Bet you won't find many Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 What ? ... Takin' up already empty space, what a nerve ... You should be grateful that there was a couple more coins in the collection dish.... You religious freaks never cease to amaze me. I'm not a religious freak, but I agree that those people are also very annoying. Oh, and they rarely add anything to the "collection dish" so that's a terrible argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahyoubetcha Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Is there a good explanation why God doesn't allow us to have proof of his/her existence? Really, what's up with that? Why couldn't he/she doesn't just show up so that faith is no longer required? Why is faith a requirement of all religions? If I were a God, I would sure as shit make an appearance if just to say "Hey, guys! Yes, I really exist. Now, knock it off or else!" And as far as believing in a God just because there's no proof that one doesn't exist, then does that mean Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist as well, because I'm not aware of any scientific proof that they don't exist. That doesn't make any sense does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~tangerine~ Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 And as far as believing in a God just because there's no proof that one doesn't exist, then does that mean Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist as well, because I'm not aware of any scientific proof that they don't exist. That doesn't make any sense does it. lol, that's good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Is there a good explanation why God doesn't allow us to have proof of his/her existence? Really, what's up with that? Why couldn't he/she doesn't just show up so that faith is no longer required? Why is faith a requirement of all religions? If I were a God, I would sure as shit make an appearance if just to say "Hey, guys! Yes, I really exist. Now, knock it off or else!" And as far as believing in a God just because there's no proof that one doesn't exist, then does that mean Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist as well, because I'm not aware of any scientific proof that they don't exist. That doesn't make any sense does it. I'd argue that the proof is all around us. You just need to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrycja Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Well first off how am I being in the wrong for being someone who doesn't believe in the supernatural which is trying to prove by faith and writings of humans? Show me one religious text that was written by a god? Faulty reasoning IS NOT refuting something that does not exist. Faulty reasoning is believing this tripe to start with.. You do have one point though, I cannot prove they don't exist, however this means they are merely hypothetical. I mean hypothetically according to you here is a goddess from across town who comes complete with CD, I will be sure to be at her altar for my holy water sprinklings. Come one come all for our snake oils. Ok, I'm going to try this one last time because even I'm sick of myself by now, principles of logic shmogic, coherent presentation of arguments blah blah...It's like I'm speaking a different language here. No offense, MH, but I'm like the fourth or fifth person to mention that you may not have read their post carefully, or read into it, or misunderstood it. Maybe you're just way too busy or maybe I'm putting too fine a point on it. But you are actually proving my point. Religious texts have nothing to do with this. Does that surprise you? Using them to prove existence of a supernatural being is as futile as using them to disprove it. Tell you what. Just for fun, let's take the discussion of religion (ALSO a separate discussion) or atheism or theism out of the equation altogether because it seems to be a big stumbling block. What I am simply pointing out is not that any one single element (as has been done several times) be debated back and forth, but what I would like to see, and have yet to see, is a clearly laid out argument in support of a position. That's it. I don't want to impose my views, or insult, or indoctrinate. I suspect all of this is coming across as an imposition of your freedom, which you so staunchly and rightly govern with head held high. Please excuse me if you feel I am doing this, but I hope you don't seeing as how we seem to be clear and in agreement about the free will thing And thanks for the bold font, I mean that sincerely, I tore a contact lens and am about four inches away from the screen... And as far as believing in a God just because there's no proof that one doesn't exist, then does that mean Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist as well, because I'm not aware of any scientific proof that they don't exist. That doesn't make any sense does it. With all due respect, you're kind of missing the point. It's not that one believes in God because there's no proof that one doesn't exist. There are a few steps missing in between there, and so that conclusion doesn't hold as being the result of the premise. It's just that one cannot concretely conclude that a supernatural entity does not exist just because evidence isn't as direct as a knock on the door. Anyway, no disrespect to anyone, none of these are personal attacks, just seeking clarifications based on what people use to debate all topics. I just wanted to hear some good arguments and have some good discussions, not come across as a preaching douchebag; it isn't my intention at all. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzldoc Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 All ye without faith, I come before you "BEHOLD" the majesty that is thyne self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 have to believe in God. So I apologize for making it seem like I did believe that. I didn't get that from your posts (but I haven't been in here for a few days). I love reading people's thoughts on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Damn....my mind just went completely blank. I'll have to get back to you... Time will tell.... The next time there's a great Keith quote-and there will be a next time-that's when the bullshit comes out. ...back to your regularly scheduled thread.... Well he cracks me right up every time he opens his mouth, so I don't see what the problem with Keith is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Can we just get this straight, please- the whole "Athiests believe nothing will happen to them when they die" is getting on my nerves, people The fact is that I DON'T KNOW, therefore I don't give a rat's ass. What I DO know is that my body will disintegrate. If you think for a second that I find that to be lacking, think again (or not depending on how you feel about it). For fuck's sake, we are creating heaven and hell right here on earth every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Theres more than one kind of atheism, some will base there belief on the lack of scientific evidense while others believe that while god/gods cannot be disprooven religion itself is ultimately destructive and we'd be better off without it. The problem is IMHO that alot of those who follow the former seem to be more interested in talking down to others(or playing to there own crowd) than actually acheiving anything while the latter have been responible for more deaths than anything else in recent history(Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Ill Sung etc). The lesson should be IMHO that ANY strongly held belief(be it in a nation, a system or an individual) can be incredabley destructive not just religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I'd argue that the proof is all around us. You just need to look. Nope, nothing here..... Then there couldn't be anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagey_17 Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Has anybody heard "black cloud of islam" by roy harper , very provocative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~tangerine~ Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I'd argue that the proof is all around us. You just need to look. Maybe if you write a book about your "proof" you will become someone famous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 ^ I think that's got to be a record of quotes and responses gathered together in consecutive posts I've ever seen. Great tenacity guitarmy. Hats off to you. I quickly learned that the maximum quote number is 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 How's this for a question. What if there is something after you die, and there are consequences, but you picked the wrong religious beliefs to practice? Do you only get a pass for having religious beliefs, despite the fact that many religions believe in much different ideals? That's sort of my point. If there is nothing after you die, then there's no way you're gonna get screwed for not picking a religion. But there is no way to prove that there's nothing, just as there is no way to prove that there is anything! Now if you pick the "wrong" one, and the "right" one is gonna screw you over for doing so, then at least you tried!? Picking atheism is like not responding at all. It's like being asked a question and not saying anything, or not filling in any answers on an exam. If the exam doesn't exist, then it's no problem. But if it does, you'd better answer! As far as which one to pick, you have to do your own personal multiple choice or fill in the blank. Something that is relevant to you? I can't answer that for you, and I'm not going to try to convert you to my religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 First I'd like to say thanks for peeking in. Probably very busy too. As far as argueing with everyone that I didn't read your posts. That's old news. I think I accused you of this many times in my megapost, so sorry about that. I was responding to the posts as I was reading them and didn't get to the part where you acknowledged the PMs until it was too late! Convincing some people there's scientific proof of evolution is like nailing jello to a tree. It's a waste of time Yeah it's really too bad that it can't be even considered among many religious people. I think the easier way to convince people of evolution is to say that it's possible for both creationism and evolution to coexist. Whether you believe that or not doesn't matter, because it at least gets them considering the evolution part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 He's really pissed at his girlfriend, and kept it bottled up inside too long, lol. I'm sure you're having a little fun there, but there actually might be something to look into there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Having faith on something created to pacify mans fright of death is not an option for me. All gods have been proven to not exist. Sure, you can elaborate, threaten, scare your children into believing they will burn in hell because they do not believe in your supernatural misfit desire as much as you wish. The bible was not written by a 'God.' It was written by close to 100 men/women. HERE THAT? Men and or women...NOT a 'God,' of your delusions. Loud and clear! I don't believe you when you say that "All gods have been proven to not exist". There is no way to prove that god does exist or that god doesn't exist. Which is what confuses me about the atheists. If there is no way to prove the non-existence of God, why do they believe in it? A philosophy based on proof that lacks proof sounds like a load of crap to me. Oh and by the way, you can't prove the non-existence of god by citing something in a religious text that didn't come true. Why? Because then you'd be using a religious text as proof! Something you wouldn't do before! ... So you have to go outside of religion to prove the non-existence of God. Here's a great theorem from propositional logic (very science/math based): "The absence of proof is not proof of absence." It means that just because you can't see something or find proof of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's kind of like "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound?" I always say, "yeah, it's just that no one was around to hear it." If God set forth the Big Bang and no one was around to record it, did God do it, or did it happen at all? How you do go outside of science and religion to prove that God does/doesn't exist? Well you tell me. I'm stumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The worst kind of Catholic - the "Chreaster." Twice a year showing at mass taking up space from the one who want to be there. Well, (atheists turn away, you might puke at what I'm about to say) Now now, just because someone has, as those within the faith would say "lost their way", doesn't mean we should ridicule them for their behaviors. Electrophile can come back whenever he/she feels, if they come back at all. We can't judge Electrophile, we can just let them make up their own mind. Don't tell me you plan on not going to church on Christmas and Easter simply because you know it will be crowded with the "Chreasters". I'm guessing your gripe is the lack of space. To which I say, get there early. My family gets there 1 hour early. It really sucks, but we have our seats. Chances are, the "Chreasters" that come in at the last second will have to stand. (ok atheists, the coast is clear) I'm not even atheist and I feel queezy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I don't usually speak up in these threads, although they are quite interesting to peruse. However, the use of the word "theory" here is incorrect. Theory does not mean something people think happens. It's an actual doctrine of fact. Here are the first 3 definitions of theory from Websters: 1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another 2: abstract thought : speculation 3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory> The 1st and 3rd definitions deal in FACT. Scientific theory is, in fact, FACT. Also, in your first 3 statements about religion which you state are fact, the key words are "belief" and "faith." The FACT is, religions are all about belief and faith, not FACTS. Therefore, while all 5 of your statements are, in fact, true, they don't mean what you think they do. In fact, they mean exactly the opposite of what (I think) you want to convey. FWIW, I'm a secular Jew (or Jew-lite as I like to say). I'm agnostic at this point. I'm not anti-religion. I'm working through it. It just amazes me that you can come here and make a statement and really not be proving your point... Please folks, know what you're talking about before you come here and throw out random thoughts that really don't make any sense... And before I get flamed, this is not personal. I really do enjoy reading this board. There are a lot of very nice folks here and I hope I haven't offended any of you (or at least too many... ) Very good points. Yeah, as I think I mentioned this before. An internet forum is one of the most anonymous and un-credible places you can find information! 0% accountability and 100% anonymity. I'd love to hear what you (or anyone) would say about my posts though. I fear they were too big for anyone to consider reading, which is as I admit, a sign of bad writing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Is there a good explanation why God doesn't allow us to have proof of his/her existence? Really, what's up with that? Why couldn't he/she doesn't just show up so that faith is no longer required? Why is faith a requirement of all religions? If I were a God, I would sure as shit make an appearance if just to say "Hey, guys! Yes, I really exist. Now, knock it off or else!" And as far as believing in a God just because there's no proof that one doesn't exist, then does that mean Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist as well, because I'm not aware of any scientific proof that they don't exist. That doesn't make any sense does it. I'm gonna say that every religion deals with this differently. I can only speak for the Catholic faith, and even then, there are multiple opinions within it. It goes something like this: If God made it that easy, then there would be no point in believing in God. Believing is itself the hard part! It's kind of like the "why is there evil in the world?" question. Without evil and without suffering, there would be no good and no learning experiences/pleasure. Perhaps most importantly,without evil, there is no free will. Your afterlife has similar yin and yang aspects to it too. If salvation in an afterlife was easily attainable, then free will wouldn't exist. We'd all be robots. It'd be very dull and very uninteresting. To be truly free, is to be in a prison. ... As far as your fairy-tale mascot assertions, it can go the other way too---Why be an atheist just because there is no proof that God doesn't exist? Which is why I think it's in your interest to play the odds and pick a religion. Where do you start? Hard to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarmy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I'd argue that the proof is all around us. You just need to look. Well I would agree that proof there is a God is all around us...yes. However, proof of which one? Now that's a whole 'nother question. Like I said, even the Big Bang theory doesn't account for who/what pushed the "Big Bang" button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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