Osama bin Laden DEAD

[JTM]

The Begining.

U.S Armour Bin Laden (Some news agencies refer to Osama as Usama)

The End.

Obama Kill Laden.

Not funny ?.....Well it made me chuckle.

[Fool In The Rain 60]

The Begining.

U.S Armour Bin Laden (Some news agencies refer to Osama as Usama)

The End.

Obama Kill Laden.

Not funny ?.....Well it made me chuckle.

And it made me chuckle too

[Kiwi_Zep_Fan87]

The Begining.

U.S Armour Bin Laden (Some news agencies refer to Osama as Usama)

The End.

Obama Kill Laden.

Not funny ?.....Well it made me chuckle.

LOL! Well, this is definitely my favourite post in this thread! I giggled when I read this, honestly!

[Kiwi_Zep_Fan87]

I don't necessarily agree because the point most people miss when drawing this analogy is that he was a head of state and as such his entire nation was targeted and held accountable for the atrocities he and his regime were committing. There is no such nation state accountability when it comes to terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda or terrorist leaders such Osama Bin Laden. We're moving away from wars between nations to wars between nations and super-empowered networks and/or individuals. Even so, I have always felt it is simplistic - if not jingoistic - for people to proclaim things such as "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", not to mention there's no consensus on the definition of terrorist or terrorism for that matter.

Look, I am of the opinion, that there does exist a remote resemblence between Hitler and the terrorists of today, in terms of what they advocated, namely : hatred and intolerance. I have even mentioned in one section of this thread that the very circumstances of WWII and "The War On Terror" couldn't be more different. I am no expert on terrorism or anything associated with it, nor do I claim to be. But, if you think about it, Hitler's sick and twisted movement wasn't confined to Germany alone. It did spread elsewhere in Europe did it not? Anyway, again, let me make myself clear. I neither want participate in some sort of debate nor stir up trouble. All I was thinking about was the remote similarity between Hitler and the terrorists of today. That is all.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Kiwi_Zep_Fan87

[dazedcat]

Point 1. Terrorists are different from enemy combatants in that they deliberately target non-combatants and non-military targets.

The end results are the same. Death. The military calls it "collateral damage", accidental but death none the less. Regardless of what's targeted, terrorists wage war and the results are or can be anyway, massive loss of life.

Point 2. Regime change in Iraq became a national security objective. Mission accomplished, by the way.

Whose national security objective? A gutless Congress who folded like a fucking tent to Bush/Cheney? Saadam ordered the attacks on the Twin Towers did he? I must have missed that factoid.

Point 3. Afghanistan was governed by the Taliban, whom sanctioned acts of terror/war against the United States. Personally I don't give a squirt a piss about winning the hearts of pacifists and appeasers. As you said, kill who needs to be killed. We can argue all day to what extent American citizens have been made safer by the operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan but I should think it's pretty damn clear they haven't made them any LESS safer.

The Taliban leadership should have been taken out similar to what happened to Bin Laden. The original US military attack on the country toppled them, but Bush had his targets set on Iraq, so that all went backwards. Now, Obama has his own little Afghani war going on there. Once again, take out the leadership as required but leave the military in a full scale invasion force out of the equation.

You may not care about winning hearts and minds, but as an American myself I'm fully aware that there is the rest of the world out there. I didn't mean to appease anyone nor do I lose sleep over other countries not liking us. But I DO care about how it's done and I just don't believe the past two administrations have done it the right way.

Edited May 13, 2011 by dazedcat

[BIGDAN]

Certainly the world is full of ignorant people with minimal if any understanding of American foreign policy, let alone America's history. Besides, people like them and I strongly suspect yourself aren't particularly concerned with civilian body counts, rather that unfortunate aspect of warfare is merely cited and exploited to fuel further Anti-American rhetoric.

Hi Steve,

For an Intelligent guy you come across as rather THICK sometimes especially when it concerns America Foreign Policy so I will endeavor to enlighten you.

I am not Anti American at all, although I am against some of the things that the American Government and Military have done and continue to do.

History in the case of America seems to continuously repeat itself with regard to Americas word when it comes to Treaty's, every so called Treaty with the Redskins was in fact violated even before the ink was dry was it not? you mentioned the "Law of Armed Conflict and perhaps even the Geneva Conventions" both of which are broken every day by some American GI somewhere in the world.

Its not the fact that American Soldiers commit atrocities everywhere they go but the fact that the American Military and the American Government try their dammed hardest to cover it up, My Lai is a prime example, 400+ civilians massacred and no one brought to justice, even the President (Nixon) stopped Justice being done on that occasion.

So please don't misconstrue my words any further, my hatred for what someone or some country does should not be thought of as hatred for that person or for that country. I have only admiration for the American People, and hatred for some of the things that the American Government and Military do, have I made myself clear now or do I need to re-post to make it crystal for ya?

Now please answer my question on how America changed tack after 9/11 in regard to the funding and procurement of arms in its support of the IRA? which went on for 3 decades, some ally you turned out to be, so now you can see how morally defunct this "WAR ON TERRORISM" has become for your Countries Government? cant you?

Regards, Danny

PS,America took over from Great Britain as the worlds police force after WW2, so enjoy it while you can for it is a job that is badly payed and very unappreciated by many, and like Rome and its Empire you will be forever hated, however hard you try and however good your intentions, that just goes with the job and the territory.

PPS, And please tell your President to stop evoking God when you get a Victory as God is neither a fan or supported of America or its Foreign policy, Jesus said "The meek will inherit the Earth" and that means that just as the Roman Empire Crumbled so will yours, as did the British one as well, and the Meek, well poor bastards as they are will most likely get about 6ft of earth just like the rest of us.

PPPS, Who are the Meek anyway? ain't seen any round my way for millennia.

Edited May 13, 2011 by BIGDAN

[TypeO]

The end results are the same. Death. The military calls it "collateral damage", accidental but death none the less. Regardless of what's targeted, terrorists wage war and the results are or can be anyway, massive loss of life.

Sorry, but that's more than just a little too simplistic.

By that rationale you could label General Motors terrorists for building vehicles that people die in as a result of accidents, or anything else where accidental death occurs.

If you aren't able to make a distinction between targeting (intention) innocent, non-military humans by non-uniformed combatants for the purpose of deadly coercion, as opposed to peripheral deaths in the waging of armed, uniformed conflict, then you really shouldn't even be posting, because you lack a fundamental understanding of the basic concept being discussed, and as a result will only offer myopic dissent no matter how compelling or accurate the response is.

/just sayin'

[MrZoSo]

Depends on which side of the fence you are sitting Steve, America in many peoples eyes are the Worlds Biggest Terrorists Organisation, and have killed a hundred times more innocent civilians than all the Official Terrorist Cells put together, that's certainly a fact.

And lets not forget that Bin Laden was a Freedom Fighter armed and equipped by the CIA long before he was labeled a Terrorist, he didn't change his beliefs only his Enemy, from the USSR to the USA, America only stopped funding the IRA AFTER 9/11. It makes me wonder sometimes who are the more Moral, the Terrorists or the State Terrorists.

Regards, Danny

Funny analogy because many consider the IRA freedom fighters...Besides, show me proof it was the US government funding the IRA... Lots of proud Irish people who prospered in the US would have been suspect perhaps? Who knows.

Ben Loaden was not labeled a terrorist, ole hole in the head was self proclaimed. Hole in the heads feelings got hurt when his country/homeland wanted the US to help with an issue instead of hole in the heads army, which was offered, and refused.

So ole hole in the head... headed out and hooked up with the tailiban as he was banished from his home, and ole hole in the head held a grudge he needed to address...He then had to show his people he was right, so he decided to kill innocent people in the name of God to make his point. That also did not work out.

People believe lots of things... Elvis is alive, Hitler was alive...Bin loaden is alive, Virgins are waiting for them in heaven for blowing up themselves and innocent people up. We can only do the best we can with what we've got, and if that means being looked at in an unfavorable manner by some, well then so be it. The US is a young nation, learning as we go.

We have, and will make mistakes. For the most part our theory of freedom has been working well. The entire wold benefits from this belief. That's certainly is a fact.

[MrZoSo]

PPPS, Who are the Meek anyway? ain't seen any round my way for millennia.

We left you in the dust a long time ago. if you'd have checked your rear view mirror you'd have gotten a glimpse as we strode past.

Edited May 13, 2011 by MrZoSo

[dazedcat]

Sorry, but that's more than just a little too simplistic.

By that rationale you could label General Motors terrorists for building vehicles that people die in as a result of accidents, or anything else where accidental death occurs.

If you aren't able to make a distinction between targeting (intention) innocent, non-military humans by non-uniformed combatants for the purpose of deadly coercion, as opposed to peripheral deaths in the waging of armed, uniformed conflict, then you really shouldn't even be posting, because you lack a fundamental understanding of the basic concept being discussed, and as a result will only offer myopic dissent no matter how compelling or accurate the response is.

/just sayin'

No that's not what I said at all. Read it again before you hurl insults. Nowhere did I remotely infer the military was a terrorist organization, not even close. Others have but not me.

Myopic is a very good word though, had to look that up did you?

[BIGDAN]

Citing an atrocity committed by one unit during the Vietnam War over 40 years ago to substantiate the broad, sweeping and wholly inaccurate statement that American Soldiers commit atrocities everywhere they go and the American Government try their dammed hardest to cover it up is a prime example of quintessential Big Dan logic.

By the way, with regard to the massacre and your assertion no one was brought to justice 26 U.S. soldiers were charged with criminal offenses and William Calley sentenced to life in prison (though he served only 3 1/2 years under house arrest). That isn't because the U.S. is the world's biggest terrorist organization as you claim, rather as a result of a Culture of Concealment within the Pentagon during what was among the most divisive times in American history.

Steve, you would make a good politician, you dodge what questions you cannot possibly justify.

Now justify the US Governments involvement in allowing the IRA to get funds from US sympathisers and allowing the CIA to procure weapons for them if you can, and its u-turn after 9/11, if you can do that I'll recommend you for President myself.

I have just seen a new hour long documentary on Me Lei on the history channel, as I said no justice for the INNOCENT people of Vietnam there, cover up was by a 3 Star general as well and a President. Do you want me to dig up more atrocities that your Military have committed and keep on doing so? you would give the SS a good run for their money there me old son. If you do you will help me make my point not yours, as I said for an intelligent guy you are_ _ _ _no I'll let you fill in the blanks.

Steve again you make my point, you use the word "WAS" rather than "IS" when referring to"Culture of Concealment within the Pentagon during what was among the most divisive times in American history." because your Government is still using that culture of Concealment to this day, it is part of their DNA to tell lies, the bigger the better in some cases.

Now you gonna try to answer some questions or continue to defend the indefensible and attack my credibility at the same time or what?

Regards, Danny

[Jahfin]

[BIGDAN]

The record shows I've agressively responded to most if not all of the inaccuracies you have posted tonight and thru the years (there are so many) however now that you've equated the United States Armed Forces with the SS only a damn fool would assign credibility to you.

So what Jack Nicholson said in the film "A Few Good Men" was right? "You cant handle the truth" nice one Steve you have made my day and my point, cheers.

Now if you don't like what I say about your Armed forces and your Government that's one thing, but to openly ignore any revelent questions I put and cherry pick what you want to answer only a damn fool would assign credibility to you, so if its too hot to handle you wont answer it right? OK Mr President I understand.

Regards, Danny

PS, Best if you keep you nose out of my posts in the future, I imagine its quite hard for a guy like you to be constantly challenged and put to right by a damn fool like me, enough said I think don't you?

[Reggie29]

People should focus on what is going to happen next, not what is essentially an old regime and resigned to the past.

Who will take over as leader?

It may well turn out to be a case of better the devil you know...?

Another suicide bombing in Peshawar Pakistan, near the Afghani border yesterday and no doubt more to come.

With relations between the USA and Pakistan strained to say the least the Taliban and Al Qaeda will most likely see that as an opportunity to drive a wedge even further between them.

Mushareff is under pressure because he is seen as somewhat of a traitor for allowing the raid (assuming he knew about it) and on the flipside as not being upfront with the US or being naive / stupid about not knowing bin Laden's whereabouts.

I've heard reports he'd been living in that mansion for years!?

If and it is a very big if, the Pakistan government falls then there is a very real risk the terrorists will somehow gain control and have access to nuclear weapons.

If that ever happens and they unleash them it will make even 9/11 look pale in significance, though I doubt it would happen outside of the region.

But who really knows when or where it would happen even with tightened security post 9/11?

Will the US and allies do another Saddam Hussein and invade them on the premise of looking for WMD's?

I suspect there will heightened tension with India over Kashmir too, who, according to a local 60 Minutes report, a lot of Kashmiris are / were bin Laden sympathisers.

That region has always been a powderkeg waiting to explode.

Time will tell.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Reggie29

[BIGDAN]

Funny analogy because many consider the IRA freedom fighters...Besides, show me proof it was the US government funding the IRA... Lots of proud Irish people who prospered in the US would have been suspect perhaps? Who knows.

Ben Loaden was not labeled a terrorist, ole hole in the head was self proclaimed. Hole in the heads feelings got hurt when his country/homeland wanted the US to help with an issue instead of hole in the heads army, which was offered, and refused.

So ole hole in the head... headed out and hooked up with the tailiban as he was banished from his home, and ole hole in the head held a grudge he needed to address...He then had to show his people he was right, so he decided to kill innocent people in the name of God to make his point. That also did not work out.

People believe lots of things... Elvis is alive, Hitler was alive...Bin loaden is alive, Virgins are waiting for them in heaven for blowing up themselves and innocent people up. We can only do the best we can with what we've got, and if that means being looked at in an unfavorable manner by some, well then so be it. The US is a young nation, learning as we go.

We have, and will make mistakes. For the most part our theory of freedom has been working well. The entire wold benefits from this belief. That's certainly is a fact.

Hi Mr Zoso,

I said "Americans" funded the IRA not the US Government, but they allowed it to go on and would do nothing to stop it therefore becoming COMPLICITE in the TERRORISM those funds were used for. Just as guilty as "Hole in the head" there then, so your President would be, as head of your country just as guilty as "Hole in the head" in any sane persons book then? is that right?

Your just full of excuses aren't you, Proud Irish? what's to be proud of? killing 3000+ innocent civilians, just goes to show that Young Nations are as Ignorant as Young People, but being Young is no excuse for Bad Behaviour, didn't your Parents teach you anything except how to dodge questions?

Regards, Danny

[spidersandsnakes]

Once again you've posted a false statement. You need to familiarize yourself with the Law of Armed Conflict and perhaps even the Geneva Conventions.

http://usmilitary.ab...wars/a/loac.htm

I didn't see any of your Laws of Armed Conflict and the Geneva Conventions (pretty words aren't they:)!!??) when that other TERRORIST lot, the National Guard, BRUTALLY MURDERED 4 innocent AMERICAN kids on May 4th 1970 at Kent State(the NG COULD NOT disobey the governor's orders to shoot down the 4 kids, now could they? That is ALL written in the official report:)!!! Sorry, but I'm only responding with "brutality" against the IGNORANT brutallity expressed in some posts here:)!!

[spidersandsnakes]

........AND......were the soldiers respecting the Laws of Armed Conflict or the Geneva Conventions when they BRUTALLY bombed the Nam villages with napalm????!! The napalm was used by a REGULAR OFFICIAL ARMY CALLED THE U.S. ARMY, not a bunch of terrorists....or were they???!:)

[spidersandsnakes]

let alone America's history

Perhaps during the American REVOLUTION, the Sons & Daughters of the REvolution, might have been called "terrorists", but they were fighting a GOOD cause....if they were terrorists, then I'm a terrorist too :)!

Edited May 13, 2011 by spidersandsnakes

[BIGDAN]

On the other hand given you just posted "I am not Anti-American at all" your just full of shit.

Steve, every time we argue you start to act like a spoilt little brat, call names and run away, or give Admin a call, when are you going to grow up and grow a pair and either show some evidence that America isn't what I have said it is or sulk away?

I have a stack of evidence to show you, just give me the go ahead and I'll point you in the direction of the Facts and the Truth, or can you still not handle the Truth?

Regards, Danny

PS, Or if you just want to have the last word then say so and I'll oblige.

[spidersandsnakes]

Don't even get me started on Kent State. Suffice to say guardsmen have an inherent right to self-defense, particularly after an ROTC building is burned to the ground and campus unrest escalates into two days of campus-wide rioting.

I frankly DO NOT give a DAMN if you get or do not get started on Kent State . My business here is debating and that's what I will keep on doing....till I drop :):)

[spidersandsnakes]

Frankly, I see 2 many posters here branding anything anyone says that seems Anti -American as SHIT! I for one am NOT ANTI AMERICAN and will never be....this whole SHIT happened in the U.S.A., but it might have happened in any other Western country.....BUT I'm NO yesman either so when something has to be said, I WILL SAY IT (resoecting anyone else of course:))

[BIGDAN]

Might I suggest I've a greater understanding of the facts and truth with regards to these issues than you can fathom? Our exchanges thus far certainly suggest that to be the truth. You are entitled to your opinions, what I take exception to is your penchant for spewing the most asinine, banal and overtly Anti-American views imaginable and then expecting others not only to tolerate it but to respond to it point by point. Taking into account what you have posted tonight it's clear to most your "evidence" and "facts" have already been discredited.

No Steve you may not suggest that you have greater understanding of the facts and truth with regards to these issues than I can fathom, where are your credentials to justify such an arrogant statement for one?

And my evidence is out there for all to see, you only have to ask and I will point you to it, but I know your not that foolish as to ask because you know as well as I do that all that I have said is Fact and can be backed up.

Now where exactly did you serve in the Military, because for one who is so knowledgeable I would assume a Military background, either you or family members or even friends.

The real difference between us I think is my ability to say where my country goes wrong and that's what you are unable to do. Our dear friend Electrophile has stood up and said in what she believes in and I give her great credit for that, something very lacking in most Americans everywhere, come on prove me wrong again wont you.

Now as you will never answer any of my questions while I have discredited all of yours I'll end this one way discussion now, its over due to lack of Fact, Truth and Evidence, and as Judge Judy would say, "Your case is dismissed due to lack of evidence"

Regards, Danny

[spidersandsnakes]

Ok, fine. I stand by what I said and now I'll waste precious time attempting to enlighten certifiable leftist acid casualties such as yourself.

First of all, the LOAC applies to international conflicts, as do the Geneva Conventions. Kent State was a domestic incident.

Now to my main point, the leftist's portrayal of the violence at Kent State University as the fault of a vicious and stupid system is an attempt by the Left to delegitimise the existing social order. The Left and the liberal media have made martyrs of those shot by the National Guard, and portrayed most of the students as passive spectators. However, the truth is few of those shot were 'innocent victims', but were political activists engaged in violence. The Left's attitudes have led to society taking on a 'criminal ethic' under which the interests of law-abiding citizens come secondary to those of rioters. Put differently, it seems violence in the pursuit of "social justice" is sacrosanct. I'm here to tell you I'm not having it so get off my goddamn lawn.

I've heard this RAMBLING so many times, it's NOT funny anymore:). Someone in the late 60s said:"Next time the FIRE!!!":)

[spidersandsnakes]

B)

[spidersandsnakes]

Someone up here stated that Hitler was the world's BIGGEST terrorist (I also stated this some posts ago:))...now that is PURE FACT and he led the WORLD'S BIGGEST BUNCH OF TERRORISTS ever to walk the Earth.......THE RIGHT WING S S:)!!