1975 -1977 recordings,

[Sticks of Fire]

On 4/15/2019 at 9:54 AM, confounded_bridge said:

1973  and  1975:  Reel  to  reel

1977: Cassette

The  '73  and  '80  sbd  recordings  were  stolen  from  Jimmy's  house. That's  why  they  circulate  since  the  eighties  and  thats  why  we  have  never   seen  a  new  '73  or  '80  sbd  released  by  E.V. Whoever  transferred  the  sound  from  the  reels  to  the  cassettes, did  a  really  bad  job  with  the  tape  machines. The  '75  and  '77  sbd  recordings  most  likely  come  from  a  showco  employee  which  copied  the  original  master  tapes  before  giving  them  to  Jimmy. E.V.  buys  the  first  generation  copies  and  releases  them.

I’ll bet the 1973 open reels (surely in Jimmy possession) sound great like the 1975 reels.  I’ll even bet the 1973 cassette transfers that Jimmy has (which are probably the tapes that were stolen) probably sound really nice too.  

It’s the “down and dirty transfers” made from Jimmys stolen cassette which is where the quality drops a lot.   We’re lucky to have them but I believe those copies are where the quality loss happened.   (I’ll bet the 1980 tapes that were stolen weren’t the masters either but 1st gen copies Jimmy had made for listening purposes - and also the fragments UK/euro 1983 tapes too).  

Surely those U.K. and Euro 1973 masters are complete but the backup/listening copies are what was stolen and poorly transferred and why they are lesser quality and I’m complete.   

The 1977 shows - it’s anyone guess.  Had they been done on metal bias cassette tapes with the bias set properly and the levels pumped up high during the actual recording them I’ll bet they would have sounded even better but one one really know for sure.  

For example wasn’t a huge batch of Genesis soundboard cassettes found about 10-15 years ago in old film storage conrainers and most were done on el cheapo 120 min. normal bias cassettes?   Same could have been done with Zeppelin and why the quality isn’t as sparkling as the 1975 tapes - which sound fantastic.   

Hard to believe the sound techs from those tours haven’t turned up on this forums to discuss this stuff in depth.   It would be fascinating.  

[confounded_bridge]

On 5/6/2019 at 11:49 AM, Sticks of Fire said:

I’ll bet the 1973 open reels (surely in Jimmy possession) sound great like the 1975 reels.

I  agree  100%

[HolySoldierFan]

I’m new to the forum and Zeppelin boots. Been listening to the band for years and love the two official Live releases. I set out to find a good 1977 Soundboard just because I wanted to hear The Presence Material live. In the last 2 days I listened to most of Texas Hurricane and The MSG show— both soundboard. Have to say, I really enjoyed them, warts and all. 
 

Are there really people that prefer an audience recording to soundboard? I mean, I listened to “Listen To This Eddie” about a year or so ago and while I was totally impressed with the energy of the performance, the sound was completely underwhelming— it sounded like, well... an audience recording! A pretty good one at that, but audience nonetheless. Noisy, lacking dynamic lows and highs. Midrangey— nothing that I could extract a track or two to place on a party mix for my Zep-loving friends.
 

I hope someone finds a board recording from that show someday. I believe Jimmy looked for one while compiling material for the DVD release a few years back and didn’t find much?

can anyone point me in the right direction for where I might find Zep Boots? Please share. I listened on YouTube.

[Miinsane1971]

I'm sure that this has been answered before, but how in the heck were there so many amazing soundboards leaked from '75? Some of the releases sound even better than some official live albums that I've purchased. 

[rm2551]

On 1/31/2020 at 11:14 PM, HolySoldierFan said:

I’m new to the forum and Zeppelin boots. Been listening to the band for years and love the two official Live releases. I set out to find a good 1977 Soundboard just because I wanted to hear The Presence Material live. In the last 2 days I listened to most of Texas Hurricane and The MSG show— both soundboard. Have to say, I really enjoyed them, warts and all. 
 

Are there really people that prefer an audience recording to soundboard? I mean, I listened to “Listen To This Eddie” about a year or so ago and while I was totally impressed with the energy of the performance, the sound was completely underwhelming— it sounded like, well... an audience recording! A pretty good one at that, but audience nonetheless. Noisy, lacking dynamic lows and highs. Midrangey— nothing that I could extract a track or two to place on a party mix for my Zep-loving friends.
 

I hope someone finds a board recording from that show someday. I believe Jimmy looked for one while compiling material for the DVD release a few years back and didn’t find much?

can anyone point me in the right direction for where I might find Zep Boots? Please share. I listened on YouTube.

There are a few sites worth checking out - I'll PM you. With Listen To This Eddie - I find an amazing difference between listening through speakers and listening with headphones. Night and day difference. Good headphones at a good volume can really put you there. Close your eyes and you can really pick up what it's like being a few rows back from the stage. The best LTTE is a Winston remaster - which I find a noticeable improvement over other sources/versions.

[Nutrocker]

On 2/3/2020 at 3:06 AM, rm2551 said:

There are a few sites worth checking out - I'll PM you. With Listen To This Eddie - I find an amazing difference between listening through speakers and listening with headphones. Night and day difference. Good headphones at a good volume can really put you there. Close your eyes and you can really pick up what it's like being a few rows back from the stage. The best LTTE is a Winston remaster - which I find a noticeable improvement over other sources/versions.

Amazing that, in spite of the many variations, 1st gen source tapes, etc that have popped up over the years since, Winston's version of the June 21 show -at least fifteen years old by now- is still considered the best version. Winston's got the touch, no question about that...it's the only version I've ever needed!

[rm2551]

On 2/6/2020 at 5:34 PM, Nutrocker said:

Amazing that, in spite of the many variations, 1st gen source tapes, etc that have popped up over the years since, Winston's version of the June 21 show -at least fifteen years old by now- is still considered the best version. Winston's got the touch, no question about that...it's the only version I've ever needed!

It's clearly a better version (from all other I have heard at least) from Bonzo's insane opening. I'd say it's still incremental - but very noticeable and worth seeking out.

[gibsonfan159]

On 1/31/2020 at 8:14 AM, HolySoldierFan said:

Are there really people that prefer an audience recording to soundboard? I mean, I listened to “Listen To This Eddie” about a year or so ago and while I was totally impressed with the energy of the performance, the sound was completely underwhelming— it sounded like, well... an audience recording

People new to bootlegs usually prefer soundboards because they're closer to the dynamics of a live album and are easier to focus on. In time you'll learn to appreciate the realistic sound and authentic atmosphere of audience recordings. You really have to imagine yourself being in the crowd and not just focus on sound clarity.

[Miinsane1971]

5 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

People new to bootlegs usually prefer soundboards because they're closer to the dynamics of a live album and are easier to focus on. In time you'll learn to appreciate the realistic sound and authentic atmosphere of audience recordings. You really have to imagine yourself being in the crowd and not just focus on sound clarity.

I'm one of those people that much prefer soundboards. There are a select few audience recordings that I can listen to, but they have to be really clear. I have yet to lose my "soundboard ears".

[PeaceFrogYum]

11 hours ago, Miinsane1971 said:

I'm one of those people that much prefer soundboards. There are a select few audience recordings that I can listen to, but they have to be really clear. I have yet to lose my "soundboard ears".

The problems with soundboards are they that they are typically dry sounding, no ambience. A good aud has depth and warmth, plus ambience, which a soundboard lacks. Best is a good matrix where you have two sources (soundboard & aud) merged.

It's all in preference but I would take a good audience recording over a good soundboard. There are a few exceptions of course.

[cosmic_juice]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:04 AM, gibsonfan159 said:

People new to bootlegs usually prefer soundboards because they're closer to the dynamics of a live album and are easier to focus on. In time you'll learn to appreciate the realistic sound and authentic atmosphere of audience recordings. You really have to imagine yourself being in the crowd and not just focus on sound clarity.

Good post!

[Page Les Paul]

Seek these out. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

04/28/1977  Cleveland             Led Zeppelin Boots (Two Source Merge) 

05/21/1977  Houston                North Bridge Remaster 

05/22/1977  Fort Worth           Liriodendron Remaster 

05/25/1977  Landover             Pseudonym Remaster 

05/26/1977  Landover             Pseudonym Remaster

05/28/1977  Landover             Pseudonym Remaster

05/30/1977  Landover             Lirodendron Remaster

06/07/1977  NYC                      North Bridge Remaster

06/21/1977  Los Angeles       Winston Remaster

06/23/1977  Los Angeles       Winston Remaster

06/25/1977  Los Angeles        Winston Remaster

06/27/1977  Los Angeles        Dadgad Remaster

07/17/1977  Seattle                 North Bridge (with video)

[Page Les Paul]

I have a question:

Why do the soundboards for the 75 US Tour sound so much clearer than the soundboards for the last two nights of Earl's Court? For example - Seattle (03/21/1975) sounds so much clearer than the Earl's Court (05/25/1975) show. Is the venue somehow affecting the sound? I could see that for an audience tape but not a soundboard.

[SteveZ98]

The "soundboards" from the Earls Court shows are actually video soundtracks, so they were recorded on a different machine than the soundboards from the '75 US tour. I haven't listened to the Earl's Court recordings recently, but being soundtracks they may also include effects (reverb, etc.) that don't appear on soundboards. Also, more generally, we don't know the path each recording took before it was released. One could have been copied from tape to tape multiple times before we got to hear it, and another could be much closer to the master. That's my guess as to why the '77 soundboards all sound so different, even for shows that were played on consecutive nights.

Edited June 15, 2020 by SteveZ98

[Page Les Paul]

1 hour ago, SteveZ98 said:

The "soundboards" from the Earls Court shows are actually video soundtracks, so they were recorded on a different machine than the soundboards from the '75 US tour. I haven't listened to the Earl's Court recordings recently, but being soundtracks they may also include effects (reverb, etc.) that don't appear on soundboards. Also, more generally, we don't know the path each recording took before it was released. One could have been copied from tape to tape multiple times before we got to hear it, and another could be much closer to the master. That's my guess as to why the '77 soundboards all sound so different, even for shows that were played on consecutive nights.

Makes sense. Lots of reverb and it just sounds muddier to me. I believe these were multi-tracked shows (24th and 25th) so hopefully we will see an official release some day.

[Bonzo_fan]

3 hours ago, Page Les Paul said:

I have a question:

Why do the soundboards for the 75 US Tour sound so much clearer than the soundboards for the last two nights of Earl's Court? For example - Seattle (03/21/1975) sounds so much clearer than the Earl's Court (05/25/1975) show. Is the venue somehow affecting the sound? I could see that for an audience tape but not a soundboard.

 

3 hours ago, SteveZ98 said:

The "soundboards" from the Earls Court shows are actually video soundtracks, so they were recorded on a different machine than the soundboards from the '75 US tour. I haven't listened to the Earl's Court recordings recently, but being soundtracks they may also include effects (reverb, etc.) that don't appear on soundboards. Also, more generally, we don't know the path each recording took before it was released. One could have been copied from tape to tape multiple times before we got to hear it, and another could be much closer to the master. That's my guess as to why the '77 soundboards all sound so different, even for shows that were played on consecutive nights.

Steve basically covered it. As far as different venues affecting a soundboard they most definitely do, but in a roundabout way. Since the soundboard is a direct copy of what was being sent through the PA, it features the same corrections that would have been made to adjust for idiosyncrasies of the venue. For example, a bass-heavy soundboard suggests that the natural acoustics of the venue were lacking in bottom end. I can't recall who or in which thread, but someone on here explained this in more detail a month or so ago.

The other reason the North American '75 boards sound so good, especially compared to the '77 ones, which you would expect to be as good or better since there was an extra two years of technology available, is that they were recorded on reel-to-reel tapes, whereas the '77 boards were recorded on cassette tapes -- I guess new technology isn't always an improvement eh?

[blindwillie127]

Interesting observation:

 

TJ1 year ago

"75 was a different vibe for some reason. I saw Zep in 75 NYC and again in '77, the 77 show(s) had a ton of juice, the atmosphere was ELECTRIC, '75 was very competent playing, except for Plant's voice. Still, the band was good, Plant was okay, but the vibe was subdued in 75. 1977 - WOW!!! Those shows left everyone deaf and limp - IN A GOOD WAY. Anyone else seen zep/ notice the difference in those two tours, '75 - '77?

Show less

 

[Page Les Paul]

What is the consensus for the best sound for 04/27/1977 Cleveland (Destroyer)? I have the Empress Valley version but I see there is a version mastered by Winston (Ohio Dr. Who). Thoughts?

[pluribus]

4 hours ago, Page Les Paul said:

What is the consensus for the best sound for 04/27/1977 Cleveland (Destroyer)? I have the Empress Valley version but I see there is a version mastered by Winston (Ohio Dr. Who). Thoughts?

Weedwacker’s version was a transfer from the low gen (or master?).  That got used by most of the recent bootlegs.

[Nutrocker]

10 hours ago, pluribus said:

Weedwacker’s version was a transfer from the low gen (or master?).  That got used by ALL of the recent bootlegs.

Fixed it for you😆 Yet, oddly enough, I still prefer the sound of my old Destroyer boot which I suspect is vinyl sourced to Weed's Master Reel source.

[Page Les Paul]

50 minutes ago, pluribus said:

Weedwacker’s version was a transfer from the low gen (or master?).  That got used by most of the recent bootlegs.

Thank you! 

[pluribus]

8 hours ago, Nutrocker said:

Fixed it for you😆 Yet, oddly enough, I still prefer the sound of my old Destroyer boot which I suspect is vinyl sourced to Weed's Master Reel source.

 FWIW, I also tend to gravitate to an older compilation (Tomislaw). 

[Guest WD52]

This is going to sound horribly geeky, but....It is no real use discussing what shows sound like unless you explain what system you are listening to. What you might be appreciating is the way your system creates the sound rather than an objective view of the boot in question. For example the same boot sounds poorer and less dynamic when played in my car stereo, slightly better on my £200 cheap work cd player and fantastic on my £2k Roksan M2 player through similarly priced speakers and amp. And don't get me started on the current trend for vinyl-where people spend £20 on an album then play it on a £200 record player with a £20 needle and claim vinyl is superior to cd....

[pluribus]

38 minutes ago, WD52 said:

This is going to sound horribly geeky, but....It is no real use discussing what shows sound like unless you explain what system you are listening to. What you might be appreciating is the way your system creates the sound rather than an objective view of the boot in question. For example the same boot sounds poorer and less dynamic when played in my car stereo, slightly better on my £200 cheap work cd player and fantastic on my £2k Roksan M2 player through similarly priced speakers and amp. And don't get me started on the current trend for vinyl-where people spend £20 on an album then play it on a £200 record player with a £20 needle and claim vinyl is superior to cd....

I think most of the discussion here has been around recording origins, not playback systems. For the Destroyer soundboard, there is A) the version that first came out on vinyl, B ) lowgens of that source that have been traded for years, and C) a fresh transfer of the master cassette made a few years ago.  Sure, each one of those versions of the same root recording will sound different, depending on your system, but the origins of those specific versions plays the bigger part here.

[Bonzo_fan]

9 hours ago, WD52 said:

This is going to sound horribly geeky, but....It is no real use discussing what shows sound like unless you explain what system you are listening to. What you might be appreciating is the way your system creates the sound rather than an objective view of the boot in question. For example the same boot sounds poorer and less dynamic when played in my car stereo, slightly better on my £200 cheap work cd player and fantastic on my £2k Roksan M2 player through similarly priced speakers and amp. And don't get me started on the current trend for vinyl-where people spend £20 on an album then play it on a £200 record player with a £20 needle and claim vinyl is superior to cd....

You're right that the same boot can sound noticeably different depending on the hardware you're listening with, but I think general assessments of sound quality are pretty fair.  I could play LTTE or Blueberry Hill through my phone's speaker and it would still sound significantly better than something like Seattle '72 through car speakers or a really good stereo.  As for the vinyl debate, I notice a difference, but I have no idea what my setup cost because it was a Christmas gift, so I'm not sure where it would fall on your spectrum.  I would say CDs are closer to vinyl than they are to mp3, but vinyl is still superior.