The Next President of the USA will be?

[SunChild]

Long story short, I was riding my bicycle and the front wheel hit a cut-out planter in the sidewalk and pitched me over the handlebars, smashing the bone right below the kneecap. The kneecap as a result was depressed and the bone was broken in a herringbone pattern. A regular set-and-cast wasn't an option, I needed a plate to cover both bones to facilitate healing because otherwise, it wouldn't heal properly.

Wow, sorry to hear that, Electrophile. Sounds like a nasty experience!

On topic, $25 K for what you described would probably be more like $150K in my neck of the woods, possibly more. Say your insurance covers 20% = $30K. Median income in the US is around $50K. Tough financial hit, and that's if you're lucky enough to have insurance.

The insurance company would also hem, and haw, and "lose" paper work, and file a couple of bogus "denials" and such, hoping to reach an untimely filing status that lets them off the hook - anything to either delay or avoid payment.

There are whole armies of employees paid to handle that crap, in every hospital and medical office in the US, right now. Doctors have to be as good at choosing the right codes to put on the bill as they are at repairing complex fractures.

Not cheap, not efficient, and not humane.

[wanna be drummer]

Sorry for the long delay, I was travelling with a wonky lap top that crashed so much I just stopped using it... but, this is a good discussion.

No worries. Happens to me all the time

Yes, it IS a good comparison... because we're talking about threats to your health and even your life. Kind of like a wild fire. Or an intruder with a gun.

What, you've never heard of communicable diseases, epidemics, pandemics? There's been quite a resurgence of tuberculosis in recent years, for example, mainly among the poor. You know, those same poor who don't seek health care because they can't afford it? Yup, they get contagious diseases, too.

Yes I know. One can definitely get contagious diseases and get others sick. Unfortunately, that's bound to happen. There's no way to erally prevent that. Firefighters keep buildings safe by making sure we have fire escapes, we follow fire hazard laws, limiting number of people in a building, etc. Universal health care just takes from the people and redistributes (poorly) health care. It's not a comparison.

Why do you think that? We all suffer "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to." We're flesh and blood, absolutely guaranteed to be injured or take sick. It's far more likely than fire or crime -you're going to become ill some day, friend, and wouldn't it be nice if that didn't bankrupt your whole family?

Shakespeare was ahrdly writing about health care. Yes, we all get sick. But that doesn't mean it's everybody else's responsibility to provide for us. That falls on our own shoulders.

And private health care can be cheap again, we just need to fix the system

No one says you can't go see a private doctor or buy private health insurance. I'm just saying people shouldn't HAVE to.

In that regard, Obama's plan is quite brilliant.

And I'm saying that people who are on their own plan shouldn't have to pay for those who don't have their own, since they aren't getting anything out of it.

Gotta agree with you on that one!

The Bush Admin rammed that through Congress faster than the so called Patriot (sic) Act, probably just for that reason; after all, they only have a few months left to spread wealth from the poor and middle class to the ultra wealthy.

Bush is to blame for singing the bill, but it's the Democrats' fault for even passing it.

Easy enough. Socialized medicine (*oooh, I said the "S" word*!) Single payer health care. Government paid health services. Call it want you want, it's the system where medical care is provided by doctors and other trained health care providers, and the bills are paid via taxes. It would be cheaper than our current system since it removes the barbaric profit margins of the insurance companies, and done right, people would seek care earlier, and go in for wellness checks to maintain health, resulting in less serious illnesses and less expensive treatments.

Not really sure where to start.

First off, I realize you want socialized medicine. I'm well aware of this. But how do you want to pay for this? Where are you going to get the doctors to make up for the 40 million extra patients? What are you going to do about illegal immigrants getting health care? What sort of taxes are you willing to bump up to acheive universal coverage?

Second, government-quality health care would be worse. Privatized systems in America are almost always of better quality than government-sponsored systems.

Third, it wouldn't make anything cheaper at all. Medicine will still cost a shitload. That's why insurance has skyrocketed. That means the government would spend the same thing insurance companies do, which also means that they'll have to tax mroe to make up for it...which would suck.

Lastly, it wouldn't speed up care at all. It would make it a hell of a lot slower! Doctors would have 40 million more patients to look after. This would slow down how fast people get treatment. Also, people would probably go to the doctor more often since they wouldn't have to pay a premium. Universal health care would probably dramatically increase the amount of time it takes to receive help. Just look at all the Canadians that flock here for treatment.

There are many successful models to choose from since most countries, even poor ones, have that system.

Successful? The peopel have to pay much higher taxes to pay for their health care system, so I'd hate to live in half of those countries on the WHO ranking list. I'm sorry, but I stgrongly disagree with that notion

Your answer?

Just gave it.

[Suz]

Wow, sorry to hear that, Electrophile. Sounds like a nasty experience!

On topic, $25 K for what you described would probably be more like $150K in my neck of the woods, possibly more. Say your insurance covers 20% = $30K. Median income in the US is around $50K. Tough financial hit, and that's if you're lucky enough to have insurance.

The insurance company would also hem, and haw, and "lose" paper work, and file a couple of bogus "denials" and such, hoping to reach an untimely filing status that lets them off the hook - anything to either delay or avoid payment.

There are whole armies of employees paid to handle that crap, in every hospital and medical office in the US, right now. Doctors have to be as good at choosing the right codes to put on the bill as they are at repairing complex fractures.

Not cheap, not efficient, and not humane.

I know more than one person this has happened to. Shit, I myself had light bleeding in my 8th month of pregnancy and had the nerve to go to the nearest hospital (out of network! I am such a fool!) That only cost me 500 bucks and a yearlong fight with my insurance company. I know someone (with insurance) who owed 35, 000 to the insurance company. I also know someone (without insurance) who owed 250, 000. That's 4 zeros. It's only a matter of time before something like this happens to everyone. I don't care who you are (unless you're in congress). ANYONE can get laid off, ANYONE can get sick. It will happen to you or someone in your family. I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that healthcare in the US is a privelege, but it's really embarassing to our country.

[THE FIRST LEDZEP]

^you must have a really good job.

[THE FIRST LEDZEP]

GUESS WHAT

If Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi control the government, can you imagine the liberal laws that will be created?

Higher taxes, mandated national health care, amnesty for illegal immigrants, leaving Iraq before the job is finished, continued dependency on foreign oil, abortions on demand ... the list will go on and on.

[bigstickbonzo]

If Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi control the government, can you imagine the liberal laws that will be created?

Higher taxes, mandated national health care, amnesty for illegal immigrants, leaving Iraq before the job is finished, continued dependency on foreign oil, abortions on demand ... the list will go on and on.

Sounds like defeatist anger to me.

And how the fuck do you make sense out of continued dependency on foreign oil? Explain that one professor!

I guess that's the new neo-moronic tactic, try brainwashing the dimwitts into believing it was the other guys who screamed "foreign oil will pay for everything" when it just made a few rich and made the rest of Americans look like chumps.

[THE FIRST LEDZEP]

Chase Utley

[wanna be drummer]

What type of revolution you envisioning?

Remember Remember the Fifth of November

[bigstickbonzo]

Remember Remember the Fifth of November

It's coming...

The 5th of November.

Also the day Doc Brown fell, hitting his head on his toilet seat and having a vision, a revelation, a picture in his head. The thing that makes time travel possible...the flux capasitor.

[Dzldoc]

[bigstickbonzo]

^ Nice.

[MisterMcLov1n]

GUESS WHAT

If Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi control the government, can you imagine the liberal laws that will be created?

Higher taxes, mandated national health care, amnesty for illegal immigrants, leaving Iraq before the job is finished, continued dependency on foreign oil, abortions on demand ... the list will go on and on.

GUESS WHAT

Quit repeat posting.

[longdistancewinner]

I know more than one person this has happened to. Shit, I myself had light bleeding in my 8th month of pregnancy and had the nerve to go to the nearest hospital (out of network! I am such a fool!) That only cost me 500 bucks and a yearlong fight with my insurance company. I know someone (with insurance) who owed 35, 000 to the insurance company. I also know someone (without insurance) who owed 250, 000. That's 4 zeros. It's only a matter of time before something like this happens to everyone. I don't care who you are (unless you're in congress). ANYONE can get laid off, ANYONE can get sick. It will happen to you or someone in your family. I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that healthcare in the US is a privelege, but it's really embarassing to our country.

This is what I don't understand. For such a powerhouse of a nation, I don't understand why medical health care isn't a right in the U.S. Can someone explain to me how/why you have to pay so much? Who exactly decided that, unless you have insurers, you're pretty much fucked with your health?

By no means is the NHS all sunshine and smiles, but, shit, if I need it, it's there and it's free. I couldn't believe it when my mother's friend had to pay for a visit to a walk-in clinic in Florida just to see what was hurting her back. I think it cost something like $500. In Britain that would be about...£7-8. With medication. You have an exemption card, then it's free.

Remember Remember the Fifth of November

Bonfire Night?

[wanna be drummer]

This is what I don't understand. For such a powerhouse of a nation, I don't understand why medical health care isn't a right in the U.S. Can someone explain to me how/why you have to pay so much? Who exactly decided that, unless you have insurers, you're pretty much fucked with your health?

Becuae our quality is usually better?

And who said your fucked with your health? We have plenty of free service treatment centers. Where are you getting your information from?

Who are you to decide that it's a right that someone is owed health care from everyone?

Bonfire Night?

[Dzldoc]

No one gets turned away from an emergency room. Got a cold? go to Rite-Aid

[longdistancewinner]

Becuae our quality is usually better?

And who said your fucked with your health? We have plenty of free service treatment centers. Where are you getting your information from?

Who are you to decide that it's a right that someone is owed health care from everyone?

Who are you to decide that it's not a right owed to everyone? Have you ever been ill? Do you have any close friends or family that've been ill? Healthcare is a priority. You should live your live daily with the peace of mind that if something, god forbid, should happen, at least you know that all you have to worry about is getting better.

I asked why and who decided that you pay so much. I didn't ask for the arsehole treatment. I've been going to America for a long time - 15 years - and I love it to bits, but I would never live there because I know that should I become ill (and I'm not 100% now) I can get treatment here for free. So, please don't take that as me insulting your country.

And sometimes, just sometimes, wannabe, it's actually fuckin' top-notch healthcare. Quality isn't always assumed when you pay. And we can pay for private, just like you.

Nice image you have of Big Ben, there. I'm sure it'd go down like a cup of cold sick if I did a U.S version, yes?

[wanna be drummer]

Who are you to decide that it's not a right owed to everyone?

And therein lies the question.

I'd suggest that we have the right to get healthcare, but the means of doing so fall upon our shoulders.

Have you ever been ill? Do you have any close friends or family that've been ill? Healthcare is a priority. You should live your live daily with the peace of mind that if something, god forbid, should happen, at least you know that all you have to worry about is getting better.

Of course my family and friends have been ill.

And yes, health care should be a priority. Too bad so many people expect others to pay for theirs.

I asked why and who decided that you pay so much. I didn't ask for the arsehole treatment. I've been going to America for a long time - 15 years - and I love it to bits, but I would never live there because I know that should I become ill (and I'm not 100% now) I can get treatment here for free. So, please don't take that as me insulting your country.

I'm insulting no one. Don't be sensitive.

And sometimes, just sometimes, wannabe, it's actually fuckin' top-notch healthcare. Quality isn't always assumed when you pay. And we can pay for private, just like you.

In America, generally priovatized ANYTHING is better. Why would health care be different?

Nice image you have of Big Ben, there. I'm sure it'd go down like a cup of cold sick if I did a U.S version, yes?

Never seen V for Vendetta have you?

[longdistancewinner]

Of course my family and friends have been ill.

And yes, health care should be a priority. Too bad so many people expect others to pay for theirs.

Are you talking about insurers or the people that want healthcare to become free?

I'm insulting no one. Don't be sensitive.

I'll remember that when I have my yearly checkup with my doctor for my chronic anxiety disorder.

In America, generally priovatized ANYTHING is better. Why would health care be different?

It isn't any different. But, unless, you've had the privilage of being treated in both a private hospital and an NHS one you can't really say that private healthcare is better quality. And your original quote was, 'Because our quality is usually better?'. Implication being there, that you think ours is shit because it's free.

[wanna be drummer]

Are you talking about insurers or the people that want healthcare to become free?

People who want universal health care (tis never "free")

I'll remember that when I have my yearly checkup with my doctor for my chronic anxiety disorder.

Taken completely out of context.

It isn't any different. But, unless, you've had the privilage of being treated in both a private hospital and an NHS one you can't really say that private healthcare is better quality. And your original quote was, 'Because our quality is usually better?'. Implication being there, that you think ours is shit because it's free.

I wasn't referring to "your shit". I didn't even know you were from outside the US. I was talking about the American ranking compared to most of the world.

And I can tell you that private health care coverage is better here than the crap the government dishes out.

[allthekingshorses]

Well soon this will finally come to a conclusion. I cant believe the eve of the election is here. I am interested to see how accurate the exit polls are as well as the voter turnout. Will it be as high as predicted? And last but not least, will we hear from our buddy Hermit? If Obama wins, how can he resist?

Hi all!

I will "hope" Obama wins and that we here from Hermit. And I can't believe we are finally there either. The last two weeks have been in slow motion and now the last four days have flown by. If we can believe CNN, Barack has this thing won... time will tell in less than a day!

[Strider]

For months I have been of the opinion that this election would be fairly close,

one way or another, no matter what the polls said about either Obama or McCain

having a big lead.

My feelings were based on the fact that the majority of McCain supporters were

older/conservative and THEY tend to usually get out the vote on a consistent

basis...they know when and where their polling places are and don't mind the wait.

Whereas with Obama's supporters, who skew mostly younger and many will be

first-time voters, you just don't know if all those people telling pollsters they

are for Obama will ACTUALLY get out and vote tomorrow. Will they forget the

vote is tomorrow? Do they know where their polling place is? And, given how

Gens X, Y and Z are so ADD-addled and obsessed with instant gratification, how

do we know that if these young kids show up at the polling place and see a big

line that they won't blow it off as too long a wait for them?

But in the last week I've had a change of heart...I think Obama wins...and wins

BIG!

And one thing that has turned me from pessimist to optimist is this: most of my

conservative friends have completely soured on McCain/Palin.

I have 11 friends that are conservative.

1 is voting for John McCain.

1 is voting for Bob Barr.

2 are voting for Ron Paul.

3 are voting for Barack Obama.

And the other 4 are sitting this election out in disgust with all the candidates.

Yes, I'm aware my sample is hardly scientific...still, I'm hearing from other

people from across the country who report similar disillusionment with McCain/

Palin and the craven Rovian campaign they have chosen to run.

I just feel the groundswell of excitement building for Obama and his supporters,

contrasted with a lack of same for McCain.

[wanna be drummer]

Well soon this will finally come to a conclusion. I cant believe the eve of the election is here. I am interested to see how accurate the exit polls are as well as the voter turnout. Will it be as high as predicted? And last but not least, will we hear from our buddy Hermit? If Obama wins, how can he resist?

I doubt it

[bigstickbonzo]

I'm hearing from other

people from across the country who report similar disillusionment with McCain/

Palin and the craven Rovian campaign they have chosen to run.

Alot, if not a majority of the hardest conservative-based Republicans have been angry since McCain won the nomination because he wasn't their choice. That would be Romney. Palin is the closet to what "they" define as one of their own, but mostly all moderate Republicans despise Palin because she makes their party look weak and at times, foolish in the campaign and there you have it: a ripe cocktail full of hate, bigotry and defeat that has been boiling over for weeks now.

Nearly all the negative attacks that weren't fully warranted, some seen here for instance, are solely based on the idiological division of the Republican Party in this election and the frustration within that they will likely lose this election because they fucked things up so bad.

[Lake of Shadows]

Well soon this will finally come to a conclusion. I cant believe the eve of the election is here. I am interested to see how accurate the exit polls are as well as the voter turnout. Will it be as high as predicted?

Yes, that will be interesting to see. I'm hoping, but not expecting, that there won't be any problems with determining the outcome. It will be fine with me if I never again hear the phrase 'hanging chad' or 'dangling chads' or whatever it was. Folks should keep their chads protected from harm

And last but not least, will we hear from our buddy Hermit? If Obama wins, how can he resist?

Nope, you won't... it's not a matter of being able to resist or not. As far as I know, he's fine, but won't be back.

[wanna be drummer]

Shoudl've picked Fred Thompson