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The Rover 75

Did They Paint Themselves Into A Corner?

45 posts in this topic

Now hang with me, on this one. During Live shows, songs like " Dazed & Confused" 30 mins, 'Whole Lotta Love" 15 mins, "Stairway To Heaven" 12 mins, "No Quarter" 15 mins, "Moby Dick" 15 mins., among others. depending on the tour. So they played these songs nightly, & we are looking at approx 1 1/2 - 2 hrs of show time already. So the question is, did this limit the amount of new songs that were played, because of the length of these songs? I think it did, it would explain why some songs were rarely played, or not at all, at least that is what I think.

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It did to an extent, but I think if they had really wanted to play a song live they could have alternated tunes on different nights. I wish they had played custard pie, the wanton song, for your life and candy store rock live. I'm gonna crawl could have been interesting in the tour over Europe. Alternate that with SIBLY.  I'm sure they had their reasons - some songs might have been rough on plants voice, others might not have translated live well (levee), etc.

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I think it was an ego thing. Each of the really long ones is a showcase for each instrumentalist. Guitar / noise solo, No Quarter, drum solo. By 1977 each stretching out to close to 30 mins long.... I agree it was a mistake to go that way as it left no space for songs that would have sounded great live:

Custard Pie (just listen to the storming Page / Black Crowes version and imagine it with Plant, Jones & Bonzo), Wanton song, For your life, Royal Orleans, Carouselambra, I'm gonna crawl, all could have had some / more showtime, but ego got in the way, jmo.

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Posted (edited)

 

Couldn't we surmise Zeppelin was a jam Band essentially? They tried to do what jam bands do and take the audience somewhere else sometimes hitting and sometimes missing? Never trying to replicate what's on record. I kind of dig that because if I want to hear an exact copy of the record and I can stay home and listen to the record. A unique performance can only happen once.

Edited by Tremelo

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Considering the amount of studio material that was available by the '75, '77, & '80 tours, they would have always left some fans wanting or unsatisfied.  During the O2, Plant makes a point of mentioning that some tunes 'had to be there".  It wasn't any different for the above mentioned tours.  As an example, people still complain 40 years later that D & C wasn't included on the '77 & '80 tours.  I imagine some people that saw them on the '75 tour in America wonder why they didn't get an acoustic set like @ the Earl's Court shows.  You can go on & on.....

It was also the era.  It's not a coincidence things were changed up for the '80 tour.  It was a different concert and music environment from when they started.       

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, The Rover 75 said:

Now hang with me, on this one. During Live shows, songs like " Dazed & Confused" 30 mins, 'Whole Lotta Love" 15 mins, "Stairway To Heaven" 12 mins, "No Quarter" 15 mins, "Moby Dick" 15 mins., among others. depending on the tour. So they played these songs nightly, & we are looking at approx 1 1/2 - 2 hrs of show time already. So the question is, did this limit the amount of new songs that were played, because of the length of these songs? I think it did, it would explain why some songs were rarely played, or not at all, at least that is what I think.

Those long things are part of the reason I like Led Zeppelin, without them I would be much less interested. It was twenty five minute Dazed and Confused(s) that whetted my appetite for more and more bootlegs

Edited by JTM

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All valid points, & I do agree. But wouldn't it have been cool to see more of the deeper tracks? I think we all would have enjoyed songs like Night Flight, The Rover & Down By The Seaside from PG, for an example? 20-25 mins of Dazed Confused is just overblown iMHO, don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic song, but 7 minutes or whatever the orig studio time, makes it a better track.

I do think the Whole Lotta Love version on TSRTS is perhaps their best, so I do enjoy some jamming, just not all the time. lol

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Aside from the absurdly long Moby Dick drum solos, I'd prefer a smaller number of long improvisational songs than a larger number of songs played basically the same as what's on the albums. I can always listen to the albums, but if I listen to a concert I want to hear something different. The long improv numbers like As Long As I Have You, Dazed and Confused, No Quarter, and the Whole Lotta Love medleys are my favorite parts of the Zeppelin concerts. Hearing album clones of Black Dog or Rock and Roll for the 200th time is what I could do without.

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3 hours ago, JTM said:

Those long things are part of the reason I like Led Zeppelin, without them I would be much less interested. It was twenty five minute Dazed and Confused(s) that whetted my appetite for more and more bootlegs

 

im in the opposite camp. those long songs are part of the reason i dont listen to a ton of led zep boots, or at least skip the long songs. gimme a 10 minute version of dazed and confused and play 3 or 4 more songs over a 40 minute version of dazed. they still could have improvised and made each version different every nite without having to play a half hour version. 

i do like the extended whole lotta love, but dazed no quarter and moby dick i rarely listen to live. 

fire away! haha

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, The Rover 75 said:

All valid points, & I do agree. But wouldn't it have been cool to see more of the deeper tracks? I think we all would have enjoyed songs like Night Flight, The Rover & Down By The Seaside from PG, for an example? 20-25 mins of Dazed Confused is just overblown iMHO, don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic song, but 7 minutes or whatever the orig studio time, makes it a better track.

I do think the Whole Lotta Love version on TSRTS is perhaps their best, so I do enjoy some jamming, just not all the time. lol

 

agree 10000000%. half hour versions of dazed moby dick and no quarter just scream of overblown 70s bombast. i actually think led zep felt the same way since they dropped those songs for the '80 tour. 

i would have no problem extending those songs live to 10-15 minute versions, but werent there 40+ minute versions of dazed? thats cray cray!

Edited by corduroyg

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I am kinda in the middle on this one. Moby Dick, IMO, is just stupid at 30+ minutes. I think even die hard drummers would walk after 15 minutes. TSRTS version is the perfect length. keep the song at no more than 12 min max but switch up the movements to keep fresh. D&C was great ar 30+ minutes when they could keep it interesting, however by 75' that ship had long sailed, they should have either whittled it down to no more than 20 min or just dropped it entirely, NQ I feel the same. Nothing wrong with a long jam however it MUST remain interesting. Playing for the sake of playing is not only redundant, its selfish.

A good example of a long jam kept both fresh and interesting is, ironically enough, the last song the band ever played. WLL from Berlin is in my top 5 versions of the song. A 20 min version which feels like 5 min because it is so damn well executed, and so damn interesting.

As Gunny Highway would say: "You can beat me, mistreat me, abuse me, or even kill me...just don't bore me."

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They might have but  

it was 40 years ago. Things change.. 

They played for 3-4 hours a night. 

They could jam with the best of them.. 

I'll take a band that takes chances over a cookie cutter, paint by numbers, same set every night concert any day. 

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I find all the medleys essential listening, in As Long as I Have you, How Many More Times, Bring It on Home, and Whole Lotta Love.  The jams up to and including the Theremin section in WLL were fantastic and special.  Dazed grew more and more interesting every year up through 1973.  Its development over time was a special achievement.  I do agree that by 1975 Dazed was in overkill mode.

No Quarter was always essential listening in my book no matter how long it was.  It was so different from year to year, and it showcased their incredible ability to really improvise and communicate on stage.  Endlessly fascinating.  When I listen to a 1973, 75, or 77 show I make sure to focus on No Quarter.  Those jams are, to me, one of the very essences of Led Zeppelin.

For me it would not have been the same band without all of those long extended jams.   

The 1977 guitar solo was an interesting idea that did not seem well executed.  White Summer was good up until and including some 1977 shows.  By 1980 is was not good.

 

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4 hours ago, IpMan said:

I am kinda in the middle on this one. Moby Dick, IMO, is just stupid at 30+ minutes. I think even die hard drummers would walk after 15 minutes. TSRTS version is the perfect length. keep the song at no more than 12 min max but switch up the movements to keep fresh. D&C was great ar 30+ minutes when they could keep it interesting, however by 75' that ship had long sailed, they should have either whittled it down to no more than 20 min or just dropped it entirely, NQ I feel the same. Nothing wrong with a long jam however it MUST remain interesting. Playing for the sake of playing is not only redundant, its selfish.

A good example of a long jam kept both fresh and interesting is, ironically enough, the last song the band ever played. WLL from Berlin is in my top 5 versions of the song. A 20 min version which feels like 5 min because it is so damn well executed, and so damn interesting.

As Gunny Highway would say: "You can beat me, mistreat me, abuse me, or even kill me...just don't bore me."

I remember a flood of fans going off to the bathroom after about 10 minutes of Moby Dick - Seattle 1977.  

 

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21 minutes ago, Box of Jimmy's said:

I remember a flood of fans going off to the bathroom after about 10 minutes of Moby Dick - Seattle 1977.  

 

Would be interesting to find out how many mainstream rock bands were still including drum solos in their set by 1977 (barring the prog and fusion/jazz outfits).

Wouldn't be many, I would think.

I agree with the early poster and skip the longer epics on boots.

More interested in hearing the contemporary numbers from that tour/album.

 

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Keeping White Summer in the setlist after 1970 was criminal. If you've heard it once, you've heard it all.

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I think it was Plant who said "By 77, Zeppelin was showboating it quite a lot live, we were all guilty really 

of not pushing it forward" Stuck in a rut set wise? Because its easier?

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12 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

Would be interesting to find out how many mainstream rock bands were still including drum solos in their set by 1977 (barring the prog and fusion/jazz outfits).

Wouldn't be many, I would think.

I don't know, drum solos seemed to still be a thing well into the 80's hair band days.

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Posted (edited)

i think that led zeppelin and rush are the best two performing bands in the history of rock music.both were unique bands who were also great performers and seeing them live was more than just a concert,it was an event you will remember for your life.

 

Edited by John Teegen Sr.
spelling

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3 hours ago, Balthazor said:

I don't know, drum solos seemed to still be a thing well into the 80's hair band days.

Dread to say it, but yep, Motley Crue. Can't think of many others though.

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16 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

Would be interesting to find out how many mainstream rock bands were still including drum solos in their set by 1977 (barring the prog and fusion/jazz outfits).

Wouldn't be many, I would think.

 

4 hours ago, Balthazor said:

I don't know, drum solos seemed to still be a thing well into the 80's hair band days.

 

31 minutes ago, 76229 said:

Dread to say it, but yep, Motley Crue. Can't think of many others though.

Kiss were still doing drum solos with Peter Criss as late as 1998, as this video shows. To put it mildly, Criss is no Bonham.

 

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One of the many things I love about Led Zeppelin is their ability to "improvise" and it did get to the point of ego, excess and self indulgence in 1977.  However, from their very beginning to their very end, Led Zeppelin improvised in one form or another.  (I say this because I have listened to hundreds of bootlegs, I was 9 years old when Bonzo died).  In some cases, I think that it was way too "Over the Top" and somewhat redundant to play one song for and up to 45 minutes in duration at almost every concert in 1977.  Most of these songs have already been mentioned.  I think that it would have been better (in hindsight) if Led Zeppelin would have "cut the waffle" in 1977 and played songs that they never (or rarely) played live.  Some of the songs that I would have loved to hear are:

Out on the Tiles

When the Levee Breaks

Your Time is Gonna Come

Gallows Pole

In the Light (My Favorite LZ Song)

The Rover

Hots on For Nowhere

Carouselambra...

 

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Posted (edited)

I get the retrospective complaints about long improvised sections being played instead of a bunch of the 'songs' we would have liked them to have played, but I don't think it would have been physically possible, not for 3 and a half hours. Hell, in '75 they were doing marathon long shows and Plant could barely sing. In '77 Plants voice was in much better shape but couldn't possibly have sung for over three hours without intermittent breaks to get a rest, some tea, and some....energy B) 

Page was the real workhorse with the least amount of downtime during these tours. Moby Dick and JPJ piano solo in NQ were his only rest stops. Page was frail, but he was a beast when it came to stamina. Besides, I'm sure it was fun/relaxing/challenging to do a lot of improvising as opposed to just cranking out all your songs in a familiar way. Thats what the Rolling Stones did, and I love it, but thats not what I listen to live Led Zeppelin for.

Just my two cents

 

 

 

Edited by blindwillie127

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It would've been interesting to see what the 1980 tour list would have looked like. I doubt that we would've seen Moby Dick and Dazed and Confused re-enter the set. I think that era of the band was over. Starting with the 1979 Knebworth gigs, LZ was a different band. One of the reasons why I like watching those Knebworth gigs (despite the flaws, playing, weather or otherwise) is the variety of songs they played. They still didn't break out anything like a full version of The Rover or Hots On For Nowhere, but still, it was neat to see all those tunes played.

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The only song which describes getting painted into a corner and actually says it, is tom petty, jammin me. So especially today, with overwhelming amount of information and or lack of information, considering led zeppelin delving deep into songs like dazed and confused and no quarter, it was great they did that and improvised, like the jazz greats could. Yes, moby dick should have been cut by ten minutes for bootleg sake...but it simply was'nt and john bonham was one of the best drummers ever. Considering 1980, its most interesting that stairway to heaven, white summer, since ive been loving you were not dropped out of the set...but whatever. 

I think jimmy page and the black crowes in 99 and led zeppelin in 2007 shows what a current streamlined zep catalogue could be live. 

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