Ginger Baker trashes Bonzo/Moonie....

[zeppy668]

i don't believe Bonzo had words like this for any of his contemporaries did he? Such a shame that Baker lacks a brain, but I suppose not all musicians are nice people.

I can't say for certain that he never dissed another drummer or musician (aside from the Alvin Lee 'OJ' incident) but I know he generally respected everyone who either influenced him or who was in the business while Led Zeppelin began their run to the top. He certainly had a way of taking out his humor on drummers who he felt were inferior to him. But he also had a great ear for talent. I recall Deborah Bonham discussing the time she and John were backstage at a Police concert in 1978 and her big crush, Sting, acted like a snob to them. She was upset but Bonzo justified it by essentially saying, "Don't pay attention to it. We behaved the same way when we started. These guys are gonna be huge." He was a huge fan of Stewart Copeland.

Edited July 26, 2013 by zeppy668

[Charles J. White]

It’s so pathetic that the only bands, who could have perhaps given Led Zeppelin a run for their money, are the ones who attack them in the press on a regular basis. The jealousy from some of these hypocritical provincial rednecks is ridiculous – The Jeff Beck Group’s Rod Stewart likes to pretend that Jimmy owes everything to the mod, Peter the perv from the Who, Rolling Stones with their always strung out Richards loved trashing Zeppelin, the boring Clapton was always jealous, and now Ginger Baker, the bitter angry old Ginger Baker lost in the confusion and thoughts of his own mind…Maybe if they spent more time doing stuff besides disco music, slow sounding blues covers, less time in police jails, and dinners of LSD they might have given Zeppelin a run for their money…But Zeppelin always pulled it together when in the studio and conquered in the stadiums – 02 anyone?

[zeppy668]

It’s so pathetic that the only bands, who could have perhaps given Led Zeppelin a run for their money, are the ones who attack them in the press on a regular basis. The jealousy from some of these hypocritical provincial rednecks is ridiculous – The Jeff Beck Group’s Rod Stewart likes to pretend that Jimmy owes everything to the mod, Peter the perv from the Who, Rolling Stones with their always strung out Richards loved trashing Zeppelin, the boring Clapton was always jealous, and now Ginger Baker, the bitter angry old Ginger Baker lost in the confusion and thoughts of his own mind…Maybe if they spent more time doing stuff besides disco music, slow sounding blues covers, less time in police jails, and dinners of LSD they might have given Zeppelin a run for their money…But Zeppelin always pulled it together when in the studio and conquered in the stadiums – 02 anyone?

I like your passion and I do think there is some friendly and clearly some unfriendly rivalry involved here but I can't say Clapton is jealous of Led Zeppelin. He's proven himself to be far more versatile an artist than Jimmy Page, which at the end of the day, is probably all he really cares about (if he does to begin with). For Pete, I think the fact the Who were once the big underground British band with him as the 'great songwriter,' and then Zeppelin's eclipse of all that left him envious. The same could be said about The Stones but at the end of the day, the Stones were before and after Led Zeppelin with hundreds of songs compared to Zeppelin's fifty or so. That's not to say I think they're better than the boys (the Stones were very spotty live, even during the Mick Taylor years). I think Keith feels he's earned the right, given his success, to say what he wants. And to his credit, he's pretty candid compared to most. And I can't really argue with him. Or any of these guys really. They've all etched their own path into the rock and roll history books. They all represent a tremendous gift Great Britain brought to the world during the 1960s by channeling black American music. If they want to bitch like cranky ol' Englishmen, I think they've earned that right.

Edited July 26, 2013 by zeppy668

[Tazz3]

Ginger baker is just an a hole no body likes him lol. He can't compare to bonzo

[Sagittarius Rising]

I like your passion and I do think there is some friendly and clearly some unfriendly rivalry involved here but I can't say Clapton is jealous of Led Zeppelin. He's proven himself to be far more versatile an artist than Jimmy Page, which at the end of the day, is probably all he really cares about (if he does to begin with). For Pete, I think the fact the Who were once the big underground British band with him as the 'great songwriter,' and then Zeppelin's eclipse of all that left him envious. The same could be said about The Stones but at the end of the day, the Stones were before and after Led Zeppelin with hundreds of songs compared to Zeppelin's fifty or so. That's not to say I think they're better than the boys (the Stones were very spotty live, even during the Mick Taylor years). I think Keith feels he's earned the right, given his success, to say what he wants. And to his credit, he's pretty candid compared to most. And I can't really argue with him. Or any of these guys really. They've all etched their own path into the rock and roll history books. They all represent a tremendous gift Great Britain brought to the world during the 1960s by channeling black American music. If they want to bitch like cranky ol' Englishmen, I think they've earned that right.

Sorry bud, that dog don't hunt. No one is better than anyone else, maybe more talented, more driven, but that does not excuse bad behavior. I have played in several bands and I tell you this, what John Lennon said was 100% spot on when asked the Ringo Star vs. Pete Best question. If Neal Peart wanted to join my band and he turned out to be an asshole I would can his ass in a second for a second rate drummer the band can get along with. Just like Ginger Baker, no matter how talented someone is, at the end of the day the other musicians will only take so much shit before they either walk, fire him, or beat the shit out of him.

No one earns the right to bad behavior!

Regarding Clapton, I don't find him very versatile at all, in fact his playing is downright boring and he never attempted the multiple styles Page did. Now Gilmore, who plays in a very similar style to Clapton is a versatile player and an exciting player, why, because unlike Clapton he pushed himself and took chances. Clapton is a one-trick pony if there ever was one.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Sagittarius Rising

[FunkyPhantom]

I can't say for certain that he never dissed another drummer or musician (aside from the Alvin Lee 'OJ' incident) but I know he generally respected everyone who either influenced him or who was in the business while Led Zeppelin began their run to the top. He certainly had a way of taking out his humor on drummers who he felt were inferior to him. But he also had a great ear for talent. I recall Deborah Bonham discussing the time she and John were backstage at a Police concert in 1978 and her big crush, Sting, acted like a snob to them. She was upset but Bonzo justified it by essentially saying, "Don't pay attention to it. We behaved the same way when we started. These guys are gonna be huge." He was a huge fan of Stewart Copeland.

Thanks for the tidbit zeppy. I knew he and Jason had love for the Police, never was aware of that quote though.

[weslgarlic]

Some artists get a kick out of dissing a fellow artist especially if they have followed in their footsteps

Dean Martin slagged off the stones , Plant has had many a dig at Coverdale ...........etc etc

Sting might have not know who they were and was having a bad day or may have been in awe of Bonzo or been a bit envious

Edited July 26, 2013 by weslgarlic

[Pagesbow]

Do we really want and expect everyone to have kind words for their contemporaries? maybe the aforementioned Baker, Townshend, Stewart, Clapton (add Jack Bruce to the list) and Richards just don't like Zep and are giving their honest opinion, maybe it's jealousy on some of the individuals parts (Townshend has said as much) surely it's just one interpretation, doesn't mean it's correct.

Zeppelin are just one of those bands that it's ok to "diss" for some reason. You very rarely hear any negative words spoken about The Bealtes or Bob Dylan. However, you can't tell me every other rock musician likes their stuff? they are just "sacred cows" Cliff Richards and Tom Jones are the only musicians I've heard speak negatively about The Beatles. (presumably due to jealously )

To be honest, I kind of like the rivalries, gives things an edge instead of everyone pretending to like everyone like they mostly do these days (as advised by their PR machines)

In the 90's the Gallagher brothers from Oasis were outspoken and dismissive of many bands, and that gets a lot of people's backs up, but I prefer that to people stabbing you in the back behind closed doors - at least you know where you stand with outspoken individuals.

[mstork]

Regarding Clapton, I don't find him very versatile at all, in fact his playing is downright boring and he never attempted the multiple styles Page did. Now Gilmore, who plays in a very similar style to Clapton is a versatile player and an exciting player, why, because unlike Clapton he pushed himself and took chances. Clapton is a one-trick pony if there ever was one.

I second that. Is Clapton great? Yes, of course. More versatile than Page? Hell no. Unless by "versatile" you mean "able to play a Freddie King inspired blues solo over any song."

[mstork]

As for Baker's comments on Bonzo, they're silly. Criticizing Bonzo because he "can't swing" is like saying Michael Jordan was not a great basketball player because he "couldn't jump". Bonzo could swing like a motherf$&!er!

[Silverseas]

. .Speaking of drummers here, Mitch Mitchell is still my all time favorite. The guy had incredible technique: loose, energetic, jazzy and eruptive. He's definitely in the Big 4 with Bonzo, Moon and Ginger.

Absolutely. Mitch seems to be a criminally underrated drummer. His nuances and dynamics on the drum heads was brilliant.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Silverseas

[zeppy668]

Sorry bud, that dog don't hunt. No one is better than anyone else, maybe more talented, more driven, but that does not excuse bad behavior. I have played in several bands and I tell you this, what John Lennon said was 100% spot on when asked the Ringo Star vs. Pete Best question. If Neal Peart wanted to join my band and he turned out to be an asshole I would can his ass in a second for a second rate drummer the band can get along with. Just like Ginger Baker, no matter how talented someone is, at the end of the day the other musicians will only take so much shit before they either walk, fire him, or beat the shit out of him.

No one earns the right to bad behavior!

Regarding Clapton, I don't find him very versatile at all, in fact his playing is downright boring and he never attempted the multiple styles Page did. Now Gilmore, who plays in a very similar style to Clapton is a versatile player and an exciting player, why, because unlike Clapton he pushed himself and took chances. Clapton is a one-trick pony if there ever was one.

I've played in several groups too and while you're right, Cream didn't implode because of Ginger Baker, it imploded largely because Jack Bruce and Eric Clapton couldn't get along anymore. It's obvious, beyond their own words, because Ginger played separately with Bruce and Clapton after Cream. So, despite whatever personality shortcomings he had, Ginger Baker found himself in several groups because THEY wanted him.

"No one earns the right to bad behavior!"

How about John Bonham? As much as I love the man, he wasn't a saint on the road. Do we give him a pass?

Eric Clapton and David Gilmour are miles apart in styles, phrasing, tone and versatility. If that's your opinion, I suggest you listen to both artists more carefully.

Do we really want and expect everyone to have kind words for their contemporaries? maybe the aforementioned Baker, Townshend, Stewart, Clapton (add Jack Bruce to the list) and Richards just don't like Zep and are giving their honest opinion, maybe it's jealousy on some of the individuals parts (Townshend has said as much) surely it's just one interpretation, doesn't mean it's correct.

Zeppelin are just one of those bands that it's ok to "diss" for some reason. You very rarely hear any negative words spoken about The Bealtes or Bob Dylan. However, you can't tell me every other rock musician likes their stuff? they are just "sacred cows" Cliff Richards and Tom Jones are the only musicians I've heard speak negatively about The Beatles. (presumably due to jealously )

To be honest, I kind of like the rivalries, gives things an edge instead of everyone pretending to like everyone like they mostly do these days (as advised by their PR machines)

In the 90's the Gallagher brothers from Oasis were outspoken and dismissive of many bands, and that gets a lot of people's backs up, but I prefer that to people stabbing you in the back behind closed doors - at least you know where you stand with outspoken individuals.

I've heard plenty of people diss both the Beatles and Bob Dylan over the years. In last week's Rolling Stone issue, Donald Fagen disses Dylan's live act pretty heavily.

The Gallagher brothers don't really have clout to be dismissive towards anyone. They were one three hit wonders, who were hyped as the next Beatles and imploded because they had shit personalities. They're now equally famous for their attitude as they are for Wonderwall.

I second that. Is Clapton great? Yes, of course. More versatile than Page? Hell no. Unless by "versatile" you mean "able to play a Freddie King inspired blues solo over any song."

I think Page is in another galaxy from Clapton but I can't deny Clapton's versatility. And by that I mean the fact that he's gone from The Yardbirds to John Mayall's Blues Breakers to Cream to playing on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" and various other George Harrison pieces to Blind Faith to Derek & the Dominoes to an extremely successful solo career and beyond.

The other side to the versatility part is Page has largely played nothing but Zeppelin material post 1980 (minus the Firm). Clapton has so much work to chose from he can play different sets all the time and yes, play blues standards too. I wish Page would do more of that (when and if he tours again).

The bottom line is it's apples and oranges. I would pay top money to see Jimmy and I wouldn't pay more than 50 bucks to see Clapton. Clapton's music hasn't changed my life the way Page's guitar playing has. But Eric Clapton has carved a career and reputation that demands respect wherever he goes. To ignore that is a great disservice to his genius.

Edited July 26, 2013 by zeppy668

[Sagittarius Rising]

I've played in several groups too and while you're right, Cream didn't implode because of Ginger Baker, it imploded largely because Jack Bruce and Eric Clapton couldn't get along anymore. It's obvious, beyond their own words, because Ginger played separately with Bruce and Clapton after Cream. So, despite whatever personality shortcomings he had, Ginger Baker found himself in several groups because THEY wanted him.

"No one earns the right to bad behavior!"

How about John Bonham? As much as I love the man, he wasn't a saint on the road. Do we give him a pass?

Eric Clapton and David Gilmour are miles apart in styles, phrasing, tone and versatility. If that's your opinion, I suggest you listen to both artists more carefully.

I've heard plenty of people diss both the Beatles and Bob Dylan over the years. In last week's Rolling Stone issue, Donald Fagen disses Dylan's live act pretty heavily.

The Gallagher brothers don't really have clout to be dismissive towards anyone. They were one three hit wonders, who were hyped as the next Beatles and imploded because they had shit personalities. They're now equally famous for their attitude as they are for Wonderwall.

I think Page is in another galaxy from Clapton but I can't deny Clapton's versatility. And by that I mean the fact that he's gone from The Yardbirds to John Mayall's Blues Breakers to Cream to playing on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" and various other George Harrison pieces to Blind Faith to Derek & the Dominoes to an extremely successful solo career and beyond.

The other side to the versatility part is Page has largely played nothing but Zeppelin material post 1980 (minus the Firm). Clapton has so much work to chose from he can play different sets all the time and yes, play blues standards too. I wish Page would do more of that (when and if he tours again).

The bottom line is it's apples and oranges. I would pay top money to see Jimmy and I wouldn't pay more than 50 bucks to see Clapton. Clapton's music hasn't changed my life the way Page's guitar playing has. But Eric Clapton has carved a career and reputation that demands respect wherever he goes. To ignore that is a great disservice to his genius.

Nope, I don't give Bonham a pass at all. He was a troubled person and I have said as much on this board several times. He does not get a pass and IMO if he were in my band, regardless of success, the first time he pulled physical violence on anyone he would be gone. His bad attitude would have been enough for me as well, would have told him to grow the fuck up and act like an adult otherwise I would have fired him from the band around 71' or 72' when he was really beginning to be an asshole, or as they so endearingly called him, The Beast.

Your opinion on Clapton being distinctly different style wise from Gilmour, well, I guess you need to read a few interviews with Gilmour buddy because he has said in several interviews how Clapton was his main influence and that he pretty much copied his style. Of course he is not so much in the blues vein compared to Clapton but the style is virtually the same, the main difference is instead of playing standard pentatonic based runs Gilmour uses Dorian & Mixolydian modes to give his solos a jazzier feel.

[bluecongo]

Notice how Page is always complimentary of Clapton?

Notice how much admiration Bonzo had for Ginger?

What does Creem say about our boys? Now I've heard all 3 guys, Clapton, Baker & Bruce trash the Zeps.

No class and bitter jealousy. Jack Bruce & Ginger Baker are angry old men who were notoriously difficult to get along with, you can see why.

[Sagittarius Rising]

^ Exactly, some people have class whereas others are simply bitter, old men.

[DropDown]

A bit off topic, but did anyone else notice that whoever put this video together - and I believe it's an official video of the BFI - spelled portrayal as "portrail"?

Yikes!

[Pagesbow]

I've heard plenty of people diss both the Beatles and Bob Dylan over the years. In last week's Rolling Stone issue, Donald Fagen disses Dylan's live act pretty heavily.

The Gallagher brothers don't really have clout to be dismissive towards anyone. They were one three hit wonders, who were hyped as the next Beatles and imploded because they had shit personalities. They're now equally famous for their attitude as they are for Wonderwall.

OK, Donald Fagan - that's one:P Joni Mitchell recently, that's two. I don't think Dylan and The Beatles evoke the same vitriol or hate as some other artists have towards Zep. Maybe that's because Page and co also stole a lot of people's girlfriends back in the day see also: Todd Rundgren and Elvis Costello.

In regard to Oasis, I think they hyped themselves as the next Beatles and, I don't like to assume, but if I were to guess I'd say you weren't living in the U.K circa 1994, to let's say, 2000? because Oasis were not one-hit wonders here: their debut album was the fastest selling debut of all-time and the follow up has become the fifth biggest seller in the U.K (Outselling Jackson's Thriller and Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon) they were the biggest band of the 90's in this country. I know they are perceived differently in the U.S and known mainly for Wonderwall - but trust me - in the U.K they had the "clout" and their comments made the news.

[the chase]

As far as Bonham not having any swing to his playing.. that is ridiculous.

Compared to Ginger Baker who was much more of a Jazz Drummer, yeah he didn't swing as much.

But Baker really doesn't rock! Not a slam on him either.. He certainly can, like he did on PIL's Generic album... it's just not really his thing.

Drummers are either top kit players, players that lead with their hands ...

Jazz players tend to lead with their hands, which are very busy. The Bass Drum and Hi-Hat tend to just add color and accents.

Ginger Baker plays like this.. and very well.

Or, they're Bottom Kit players, players that lead with their feet.

John Bonham played from the ground up...his feet led the way... He was more about Groove and Soul than he was about Jazz... He had the best feet in the business.. That constant left foot on the Hi-Hat / Tamborine all the way through Moby Dick is as impressive as his flying hands.. His right foot was without a doubt the best in Rock Drumming..... and yeah he could also swing like an MF when he wanted to..

A good example of the difference of a top kit and bottom kit players would be to listen to the 2 different Drummers in Yes.. Bill Bruford and Alan White. Both are incredible, but Bill is much more of a top kit Jazz guy and Alan is more of a Bottom Bass Drum heavy player.. Both styles work very well.

A lot of Jazz guys are jerks to non Jazzers.. always have been..

[Pagesbow]

As far as Bonham not having any swing to his playing.. that is ridiculous.

Compared to Ginger Baker who was much more of a Jazz Drummer, yeah he didn't swing as much.

But Baker really doesn't rock! Not a slam on him either.. He certainly can, like he did on PIL's Generic album... it's just not really his thing.

Drummers are either top kit players, players that lead with their hands ...

Jazz players tend to lead with their hands, which are very busy. The Bass Drum and Hi-Hat tend to just add color and accents.

Ginger Baker plays like this.. and very well.

Or, they're Bottom Kit players, players that lead with their feet.

John Bonham played from the ground up...his feet led the way... He was more about Groove and Soul than he was about Jazz... He had the best feet in the business.. That constant left foot on the Hi-Hat / Tamborine all the way through Moby Dick is as impressive as his flying hands.. His right foot was without a doubt the best in Rock Drumming..... and yeah he could also swing like an MF when he wanted to..

A good example of the difference of a top kit and bottom kit players would be to listen to the 2 different Drummers in Yes.. Bill Bruford and Alan White. Both are incredible, but Bill is much more of a top kit Jazz guy and Alan is more of a Bottom Bass Drum heavy player.. Both styles work very well.

A lot of Jazz guys are jerks to non Jazzers.. always have been..

Interesting

On a side note: it's odd how John Lydon is mates with Ginger Baker because on paper you'd think they'd end up killing each other. Even more odd is that Lydon seems to cite Cream as an influence.

[kingzoso]

I watched that 8 minute clip of Ginger Baker and I realized that I wasted 8 minutes of my time.

I do like Cream but I will admit that Ginger Baker seems "so out of touch with reality" that is was very hard to watch. I could care less about what he thinks about "Bonzo" or "Moonie". I hate to say this but I think that Ginger Baker is so "fried" and out his mind (and his money) that his legacy will be more about his negative and ignorant comments about his contemporaries that he so likes to disparage.

Although John Bonham passed away in 1980, John Henry Bonham will always be given and equated as the Greatest Rock and Roll Drummer of All-Time. I think that this accolade of Mr. Bonham (from millions of Led Zeppelin Fans from around the World) does not sit well with Mr. Baker. I think that envy and jealousy can make someone very bitter and ...

Edited July 27, 2013 by kingzoso

[Pagesbow]

And let's not forget that Plant has made plenty of pithy comments of a dismissive and derisory nature directed at musicians who he feels are beneath him. By all accounts - Robert can be a bit of a bitch when he wants to

[The Rover]

Just watched the fantastic documentary, "Beware Mr. Baker" and Ginger basically trashes Bonzo. "Bonham had technique but he couldn't swing a sack of shit. The same with Moonie. If they were alive today, ask them." Then they cut to Eric Clapton and he scoffs at the idea of Bonzo/ Moonie being compared to Ginger because he claims Baker is a composer and was a fully harmonic musician. The thing I found interesting was he considers himself a jazz drummer and that at one point in his life, he used to shoot up a mix of heroin, cocaine, and LSD. He's totally insane!

So, name someone that Mr. Baker has not "trashed" over the years....

[Walter]

Best foot for sure! Jason needed that double headed contraption just to get close to his father's beat pattern at the 02.

As far as Bonham not having any swing to his playing.. that is ridiculous.

Compared to Ginger Baker who was much more of a Jazz Drummer, yeah he didn't swing as much.

But Baker really doesn't rock! Not a slam on him either.. He certainly can, like he did on PIL's Generic album... it's just not really his thing.

Drummers are either top kit players, players that lead with their hands ...

Jazz players tend to lead with their hands, which are very busy. The Bass Drum and Hi-Hat tend to just add color and accents.

Ginger Baker plays like this.. and very well.

Or, they're Bottom Kit players, players that lead with their feet.

John Bonham played from the ground up...his feet led the way... He was more about Groove and Soul than he was about Jazz... He had the best feet in the business.. That constant left foot on the Hi-Hat / Tamborine all the way through Moby Dick is as impressive as his flying hands.. His right foot was without a doubt the best in Rock Drumming..... and yeah he could also swing like an MF when he wanted to..

A good example of the difference of a top kit and bottom kit players would be to listen to the 2 different Drummers in Yes.. Bill Bruford and Alan White. Both are incredible, but Bill is much more of a top kit Jazz guy and Alan is more of a Bottom Bass Drum heavy player.. Both styles work very well.

A lot of Jazz guys are jerks to non Jazzers.. always have been..

[Triplet Kick]

Great drumming point by The Chase above, thanks.

Mr Baker is clearly a bit of a loon. However, as some others have already pointed out, the influence of Cream on bands around them in the mid- to late-60s should not be underestimated. E.g. the story goes that Queen's Brian May was looking for a "Ginger Baker/Mitch Mitchell-type drummer" when he met Roger Taylor around 1969. In those days, Cream were constantly name-checked in admiration by many in the rock fraternity and beyond.

The thing is, so many bands who were influenced by Cream - such as Zeppelin - ended up surpassing what Cream had achieved with even more success. Perhaps this is where any sour grapes lie with Mr Baker et al.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Triplet Kick

[Wolfman]

He's also pissed that Jack Bruce and Pete Brown,the guy who wrote the lyrics to a lot of Cream's songs, got most of the money when he's the one who arranged a lot of their great songs (Ex/ he told Bruce to reverse and slow down some riff he was playing to create "Sunshine Of Your Love").