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http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelin-stairway-trial-goes-to-jury-as-both-sides-plead-case-20160622?page=2

Well, this is the first I've read this:

Anderson had some setbacks early on, though. He repeated his assertion that Hollenbeck Music (a publishing concern owned by legendary music producer and impresario Lou Adler) actually owned the "Taurus" copyright; that argument was rendered null, however, when Judge Klausner affirmed, in his instructions to the jury, that the trustees of Randy Wolfe's estate indeed own the "Taurus" copyright.

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43 minutes ago, KellyGirl said:

Court is over and the jury is still deliberating?   I have mixed feelings of that being  good and
bad for Zeppelin.  The bad:  What is there to deliberate?  

Same thing we've been discussing since last week -  access via their use of the killer "Fresh Garbage" baseline in the "As Long As I Have You" medley.  A lengthy deliberation is definitely not good for Led Zep.   There were three issues when the trial started, right?  Proximity, Access and Similarity. Now there is only one -- Access, but one would have to make a speculative leap to get there because "Fresh Garbage", while on the same side of the record as "Taurus", is not "Taurus".   From a jury perspective I think it's worth discussing for at least a little while before make a decision, yes?  -- though after an hour or so, I can't imagine that being good for Zep. 

On another note:  Doesn't the name Malofiy mean "bad seed" or "bad spirit" or something like that?

Edited by Mercurious
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Just now, mack said:

Could go either way.

 

Never overestimate the diligence or intelligence of a jury pool.  Particularly in a civil case.

I agree with this.  A jury can easily get the "Robin Hood" mentality in a civil case involving a sort of David v. Goliath situation.  Tomorrow should be very telling.  If it goes past Thursday, then the plaintiff most certainly is getting something out of it.  

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6 minutes ago, Mercurious said:

 Proximity, Access and Similarity. Now there is only one -- Access

I disagree. While I'm not sure exactly what is meant by proximity, I don't think similarity has been proven, aside from proving that it's similar to a common musical sequence which can't be copyrighted. Whether or not they heard Taurus, whether or not they got the idea from Taurus, shouldn't be as important as whether or not that bit of music can even be copyrighted in the first place.

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Just now, Balthazor said:

I disagree. While I'm not sure exactly what is meant by proximity, I don't think similarity has been proven, aside from proving that it's similar to a common musical sequence which can't be copyrighted. Whether or not they heard Taurus, whether or not they got the idea from Taurus, shouldn't be as important as whether or not that bit of music can even be copyrighted in the first place.

Invert the meaning, or flip it -- Proximity was the whole "they played with us, we toured US together, they went to our shows," that sort of thing.  They didn't even establish that they were ever in the same room together in Denver in 1968, so ...  proximity is out.  Similarity is out, too, because the judge ruled that those notes can't be copyrighted.   So there were three issues at start -- two of those are out, leaving only the access issue, which Led Zep labelled "speculative" in the motion to dismiss filed on Monday.

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Just now, Mercurious said:

Invert the meaning, or flip it -- Proximity was the whole "they played with us, we toured US together, they went to our shows," that sort of thing.  They didn't even establish that they were ever in the same room together in Denver in 1968, so ...  proximity is out.  Similarity is out, too, because the judge ruled that those notes can't be copyrighted.   So there were three issues at start -- two of those are out, leaving only the access issue, which Led Zep labelled "speculative" in the motion to dismiss filed on Monday.

Oh I see what you're saying, I was reading it exactly backwards, that proximity and similarity were already "proven" and the decision left hinges on access. But you're saying the exact opposite. Reading comprehension fail. :)

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3 minutes ago, Balthazor said:

Oh I see what you're saying, I was reading it exactly backwards, that proximity and similarity were already "proven" and the decision left hinges on access. But you're saying the exact opposite. Reading comprehension fail. :)

My bad, I should have been a little less fuzzy :)

 

 

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10 hours ago, Strider said:

We, the jury, find in favour of the defendants. Furthermore, we think Malfoy should be disbarred and prevented from being anywhere near a courtroom for the rest of his life. Thanks for wasting our time and costing us money.

SUSTAINED!

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1 hour ago, Mercurious said:

Same thing we've been discussing since last week -  access via their use of the killer "Fresh Garbage" baseline in the "As Long As I Have You" medley.  A lengthy deliberation is definitely not good for Led Zep.   There were three issues when the trial started, right?  Proximity, Access and Similarity. Now there is only one -- Access, but one would have to make a speculative leap to get there because "Fresh Garbage", while on the same side of the record as "Taurus", is not "Taurus".   From a jury perspective I think it's worth discussing for at least a little while before make a decision, yes?  -- though after an hour or so, I can't imagine that being good for Zep. 

On another note:  Doesn't the name Malofiy mean "bad seed" or "bad spirit" or something like that?

Fresh Garbage" is a red herring used by the plaintiffs to mislead the jury. There is no basis in fact that even if Jones and Page heard "Fresh Garbage" before they played the riff in concert, that means they also heard "Taurus".

Both Jones and Page testified they did not own the first "Spirit" album at that time. "Fresh Garbage" was played on the radio back then, while "Taurus" was not...at least, I never heard it.

Jones said it was a riff he heard somewhere and liked, so the odds are that Jones, and maybe even Page, were in a pub or a club and "Fresh Garbage" was played over the radio or jukebox and that's where they heard the riff.

Again...no evidence or proof that any of the band heard Taurus before writing "Stairway to Heaven".

Easy dismissal of the case. IF the jury is halfway sentient.

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13 minutes ago, Strider said:

Fresh Garbage" is a red herring used by the plaintiffs to mislead the jury. There is no basis in fact that even if Jones and Page heard "Fresh Garbage" before they played the riff in concert, that means they also heard "Taurus".

Both Jones and Page testified they did not own the first "Spirit" album at that time. "Fresh Garbage" was played on the radio back then, while "Taurus" was not...at least, I never heard it.

Jones said it was a riff he heard somewhere and liked, so the odds are that Jones, and maybe even Page, were in a pub or a club and "Fresh Garbage" was played over the radio or jukebox and that's where they heard the riff.

Again...no evidence or proof that any of the band heard Taurus before writing "Stairway to Heaven".

Easy dismissal of the case. IF the jury is halfway sentient.

That's like saying even though you know a song....let's just say The Beatles' "Let It Be", that you are completely familiar with every song on that album.  Could be true but just as likely not to be!  Lot of here say for certain!

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3 hours ago, Mercurious said:

Same thing we've been discussing since last week -  access via their use of the killer "Fresh Garbage" baseline in the "As Long As I Have You" medley.  A lengthy deliberation is definitely not good for Led Zep.   There were three issues when the trial started, right?  Proximity, Access and Similarity. Now there is only one -- Access, but one would have to make a speculative leap to get there because "Fresh Garbage", while on the same side of the record as "Taurus", is not "Taurus".   From a jury perspective I think it's worth discussing for at least a little while before make a decision, yes?  -- though after an hour or so, I can't imagine that being good for Zep. 

On another note:  Doesn't the name Malofiy mean "bad seed" or "bad spirit" or something like that?

Per Robert Plant's testimony: "Alternately regal and earthy, his voice maintaining its trademark sonorous burr, Plant revealed that he first brought Spirit's work to the rest of his band-mates, having discovered their song "Fresh-Garbage" on a 1968 Columbia Records compilation and then incorporating a cover of it into Zeppelin's early live sets."

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/robert-plant-on-spirit-song-in-stairway-trial-i-dont-remember-it-20160621

 

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12 hours ago, Strider said:

Fresh Garbage" is a red herring used by the plaintiffs to mislead the jury. There is no basis in fact that even if Jones and Page heard "Fresh Garbage" before they played the riff in concert, that means they also heard "Taurus".

Both Jones and Page testified they did not own the first "Spirit" album at that time. "Fresh Garbage" was played on the radio back then, while "Taurus" was not...at least, I never heard it.

Jones said it was a riff he heard somewhere and liked, so the odds are that Jones, and maybe even Page, were in a pub or a club and "Fresh Garbage" was played over the radio or jukebox and that's where they heard the riff.

Again...no evidence or proof that any of the band heard Taurus before writing "Stairway to Heaven".

Easy dismissal of the case. IF the jury is halfway sentient.

Wait a minute.  You're the poster that suggested I was being naive last week for expressing similar doubts about any connection between "Fresh Garbage" and "Taurus".  I've never thought this suit was anything but frivolous and should have been tossed by Klausner before this massive waste of time of a trial, but we all know the jury is wondering why Page can't remember ever saying how much he liked Spirit, or why in the world he owns four or five Spirit records.  "Fresh Garbage" is not "Taurus",  but it's no a red herring.  if we're wondering what there is for the jury to talk about, this question of access via "Fresh Garbage" is certainly it -- but I'm far too biased in favor of Jimmy Page to be a proper devil's advocate.

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As far as I'm concerned it has been well established that a descending scale as employed in Stairway goes back hundreds of years.  Since Bach (at least), every manner of songwriter has put their spin on it.  A ruling for the plaintiff would in effect mean that Randy California had the right to put his spin on it but Jimmy Page did not.  And make no mistake, Page's inclusion of an ascending melody and artful resolution makes his very different from Taurus.

if you told me that Page had actually listened to Taurus and was inspired by it that would not effect my opinion that Randy C's estate should not get one thin dime out of this, let alone a writing credit.  If they win Page would have to live another 100 years to sue all of the artists who were inspired by Zeppelin songs when writing their own music.

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15 minutes ago, mstork said:

if you told me that Page had actually listened to Taurus and was inspired by it that would not effect my opinion that Randy C's estate should not get one thin dime out of this, let alone a writing credit.  If they win Page would have to live another 100 years to sue all of the artists who were inspired by Zeppelin songs when writing their own music.

I agree 100%.   To think otherwise is to say that a formula 1 race car and a beat up Pinto are one and the same because they both contain a certain ignition technology.  Jake Holmes is the only person who ever had a reasonable claim against Jimmy Page, and even Holmes agreed that his claim is extremely limited from an artistic perspective. 

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Ashley Cullins tweeted that jury sent in a note. She said  it could be the verdict, a
question or a request for food.

I hope it is not for food, because that would mean they feel they have a long ways to
deliberate still.

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