JPJ almost leaving the band

[mos6507]

I know it would have never happened, of course, but Ray Manzerak was a superb musician, professionally schooled at the prestigious Chicago Conservatory, although not a bass player. I know with the doors he (Ray) played bass pedals while simultaneously playing keys...I dont believe that would've worked in LZ, but imagine the musical possibilties if they had retained a bass player, as well....Led Zeppelin would not exist as we know them today!

One of the reasons I love Led Zeppelin is they never changed their lineup and they never brought in support musicians on their tours. They also very rarely employed extra musicians in the studio. So there was tremendous purity in what they did. What you were hearing was the output of the 4 guys. The parts that go into Zeppelin are never anonymous. They always carry with it the characteristics of the players. So when you listen to a Zep bassline, it's JPJs bassline. It's his phrasing. His rhythms. His fills, whether it's The Lemon Song or Carouselambra. They were true auteurs. Even the Beatles can't claim that since so many signature Beatles tracks feature George Martin's orchestral backing.

Edited May 22, 2008 by mos6507

[poortom]

i thought it was something to do with him touring while his kids were on school holidays or something like that.

[Evster2012]

i thought it was something to do with him touring while his kids were on school holidays or something like that.

Read the thread yes? Oh, didn't? Might want to try it out. Quite a lot of stuff has been posted. Sorry, I don't mean to be an ass about it, but we did post quite a bit of research on the topic. It would be nice if all that effort wasn't in vain. Sorry, but it's a bit annoying when you go to the trouble of digging through your archives to answer (or at least conribute to, and in my case post links to archival interviews) a topic with something substantial, that actually sheds light on it, and you get someone coming in like this. It's like they would rather just be heard than actually answered. It's frustrating.

[Knebby]

If you can provide evidence that Robert was hurt by that, I'd believe you. Robert said that the band did not hang around eachother that much during their "family time" (unless they were making music like they did in Wales) so it might have been seen as a sign of respect to let Robert mourn on his own.

I have no evidence to offer you other than my word regarding numerous personal conversations, and you know how I feel about that - take it or leave it. I have nothing to prove, and there is no reason why I can't offer my informed opinion in a discussion.

I have to add that it amazes me that people give this band such God-like status that they will continue to make excuses for them when they behave appallingly. There are no excuses for what happened in this instance.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Knebby

[Pat71]

I have no evidence to offer you other than my word regarding numerous personal conversations, and you know how I feel about that - take it or leave it. I have nothing to prove, and there is no reason why I can't offer my informed opinion in a discussion.

I have to add that it amazes me that people give this band such God-like status that they will continue to make excuses for them when they behave appallingly. There are no excuses for what happened in this instance.

I'm interested in any opinions you might have as to explanations, rather than excuses, for what happened. I would imagine they might involve heroin in Page's case, and reticence in both their cases.

[Otto Masson]

It's really obvious that a few years into the career of Led Zeppelin Robert and Jimmy had become really good, close friends. You only need to watch them live to see that. It's just obvious. I remember Robert mentioning in some old interviews which I probably read in the '80's that there was a slight competitive thing also going between them, which is very likely true, but not of the essence in this connection. Close friends all the same. So the fact that Jimmy didn't show support when the tragedy struck in 1977 is really astonishing, and I've often wondered about it. The only plausible explanation that comes to my mind is what Steve already said: he must have been fucked up on drugs and feeling he had nothing much to offer. That's no excuse, however; but it's the only way I can at least begin to understand it. Jonesy was absent too, and it doesn't look good either, but he wasn't as close to Robert as Jimmy had been.

[Otto Masson]

Jonesy was serious about leaving the band. Here is the actual quote from Dave Lewis's interview with Peter Grant:

'DL: How serious was it in late 1974 when John Paul Jones told you he wanted to quit the band?

PG: Oh, very serious. He turned up at my house one afternoon and told me he'd had enough and said he was going to the choirmaster at Winchester Cathedral. We had this heart to heart during which we recalled a time in Australia when I got very insecure and thought the band wanted to blow me out. Anyway it turns out John said he thought it was the other way round - that I was going to blow them out. Anyway I said if you want to leave, well you've got to do what you've got to do. But I said think about it. So we invented that press story saying he was overtaxed. There was a bonus to all this because the studio time we had booked at the Grange for Zeppelin we gave to Bad Company who had just formed.

DL: Did the others get to know about Jonesy's unrest or was it kept low key?

PG: It was kept low key. I told Jimmy of course who couldn't believe it. But it was the pressure. He was a family man, was Jonesy. By that time the security thing in the U.S. was getting ridiculous. We started getting death threats - in fact straight after the '73 tour following the Drake robbery, there was a very serious one. Some crackpot letter from Jamaica stating what was in store for us when we toured again. It got very worrying. That's how we lost a little of the camaraderie after that when we were in America because there were armed guards outside the hotel rooms all the time. [....]'

I think it's obvious that if Jonesy really had quit at this time, it would have been a tremendous blow to the band. He was really irreplaceable, but I think we can be sure he still would have been replaced.

[Gainsbarre]

'DL: How serious was it in late 1974 when John Paul Jones told you he wanted to quit the band?

PG: Oh, very serious. He turned up at my house one afternoon and told me he'd had enough and said he was going to the choirmaster at Winchester Cathedral.

DL: Did the others get to know about Jonesy's unrest or was it kept low key?

PG: It was kept low key. I told Jimmy of course who couldn't believe it.

And yet I read a 2005 interview with Jimmy where he claimed he knew nothing at all about JPJ's desire to leave and take a job at Winchester

[SteveAJones]

Jonesy was serious about leaving the band. Here is the actual quote from Dave Lewis's interview with Peter Grant:

Otto, this particular quote is the same one placed under scrutiny earlier in the thread.

Just to reiterate, my personal opinon is that Peter Grant was speaking very tongue in

cheek...Westminster Cathedral

[Otto Masson]

Otto, this particular quote is the same one placed under scrutiny earlier in the thread.

Just to reiterate, my personal opinon is that Peter Grant was speaking very tongue in

cheek...Westminster Cathedral

So what? To me the context makes it obvious Grant was not tongue in cheek.

And it's Winchester, not Westminster.

[Otto Masson]

And yet I read a 2005 interview with Jimmy where he claimed he knew nothing at all about JPJ's desire to leave and take a job at Winchester

Yep, I remember that too. There is a discrepancy, either because Grant meant to talk with Jimmy about it and then didn't - many years later thinking he did; or because Jimmy didn't remember it. Grant does say Jimmy found it hard to believe. I think Jimmy said in that 2005 interview, 'I didn't know that. What an odd chap!'

[Gainsbarre]

So what? To me the context makes it obvious Grant was not tongue in cheek.

And it's Winchester, not Westminster.

Yes Winchester not Westminster...

That explains your Catholic confusion earlier, Steve

Westminster cathedral is the catholic cathedral in London, Winchester is a Church of England Cathedral

Edited May 22, 2008 by Gainsbarre

[SunChild]

It's really obvious that a few years into the career of Led Zeppelin Robert and Jimmy had become really good, close friends. You only need to watch them live to see that. It's just obvious. I remember Robert mentioning in some old interviews which I probably read in the '80's that there was a slight competitive thing also going between them, which is very likely true, but not of the essence in this connection. Close friends all the same. So the fact that Jimmy didn't show support when the tragedy struck in 1977 is really astonishing, and I've often wondered about it. The only plausible explanation that comes to my mind is what Steve already said: he must have been fucked up on drugs and feeling he had nothing much to offer. That's no excuse, however; but it's the only way I can at least begin to understand it. Jonesy was absent too, and it doesn't look good either, but he wasn't as close to Robert as Jimmy had been.

It's such a very odd thing, impossible to fathom. Some things you do not duck.

Wasn't Jones on a camping trip in California at the time? Maybe it was literally impossible to get hold of him, in those days before cell phones and laptops?

Were Grant and Page dealing with the business end of a sudden tour cancellation? (Not a good enough reason to abandon Plant at that time, of course.)

[Otto Masson]

It's such a very odd thing, impossible to fathom. Some things you do not duck.

Wasn't Jones on a camping trip in California at the time? Maybe it was literally impossible to get hold of him, in those days before cell phones and laptops?

Were Grant and Page dealing with the business end of a sudden tour cancellation? (Not a good enough reason to abandon Plant at that time, of course.)

Grant was.

[Gainsbarre]

I think Jimmy said in that 2005 interview, 'I didn't know that. What an odd chap!'

Yes! That was it

[MadScreamingGallery]

It's really obvious that a few years into the career of Led Zeppelin Robert and Jimmy had become really good, close friends. You only need to watch them live to see that. It's just obvious. I remember Robert mentioning in some old interviews which I probably read in the '80's that there was a slight competitive thing also going between them, which is very likely true, but not of the essence in this connection. Close friends all the same. So the fact that Jimmy didn't show support when the tragedy struck in 1977 is really astonishing, and I've often wondered about it. The only plausible explanation that comes to my mind is what Steve already said: he must have been fucked up on drugs and feeling he had nothing much to offer. That's no excuse, however; but it's the only way I can at least begin to understand it. Jonesy was absent too, and it doesn't look good either, but he wasn't as close to Robert as Jimmy had been.

During my concert-going years, that was always my impression - that Robert and Jimmy were "really good, close friends" - that there was a special bond between them. I am basing that, though, only upon my own experiences - when the band was touring the U.S. For example, when my friends and I were attending the Zep concerts we were always focused on the two of them - Robert and Jimmy. It wasn't just their musical performances that interested us but also the interplay between the two of them: their body language, small talk, eye contact, glances exchanged. We always believed that that bond between the two was strong during the years that we saw them live - '71-'75. They are great, beautiful memories of the two of them and, when I read about how their friendship was fractured (and some of the things that caused that fracture), it deeply saddens me. Sometimes that happens with friendships, though, no matter how close and how strong the bond: things happen and people respond and behave in different ways and sometimes not in the best way - often there is no explanation for their responses or behaviors - but, because of it, the friendship, if it survives, is never the same.

I posted this some time ago, elsewhere on this board:

At this point, some memories have faded, but others remain crystal clear. At one concert, between songs, we watched as Jimmy was briefly fiddled with something – I can’t remember if it was his guitar or amp or theremin or some other piece of equipment. As Robert was waiting for Jimmy to get whatever needed to be adjusted, sorted out so the band could begin the next song, he was watching Jimmy with a look that I could only describe as “affection”. Then Robert said “Jimmy” – in the manner that close friends address one another. Then Jimmy looked over at Robert and they exchanged a glance and their eyes met and an expression passed across both their faces that we couldn’t interpret as anything but a real friendship that contained both affection and a bond – and we saw that look pass between them on more than one occasion. Sometimes I wish a camera had been there to record those things – they were beautiful to observe. Many years have passed since those Zep concerts and those years have been marked by a number of tragedies: the deaths of Bonzo and Karac, the car accident on Rhodes, Jimmy’s battles with substances, etc. I don’t know what effect, if any, those tragedies and life in general had upon the relationship between Robert and Jimmy. When it comes to the post-Zep relationship between Jimmy and Robert, I am in no position to make an analysis or interpretation. I will leave that to the Zep guys – or to someone who was there to witness it firsthand.

[slave to zep]

this is only my opinion, but.............

people deal with death and hardships/tragedy in different ways.

i observed this first hand when my mother passed away. she was only 41, and i was 13.

some people just didnt know what to say or do around us. a young father left alone to raise 3 kids, he was inconsoleable, having just lost the love of his life ( they were very much in love ). i came to recognize some different types of people, actually different types of behaviour.

the person who swoops in, arms around you, crying with you, not leaving your side.

the person who comes over, cooks the meals, does the washing, slips away quietly.

the person who comes over, doesnt talk, but just stays near.

the person who doesn't know what to do or say, and keeps away.

my mothers best friend couldnt bring herself to attend the funeral, it was too much for her. i believe that jimmy was this type of person. what do you do or say to a person who has just lost a young son? there's nothing you can say. i know some people will say " but jimmy should have been there!" no, if he felt like this, then he shouldn't have been there imo, it may have been the worst thing to do. we didnt feel bad towards mums best friend, we understood. some people grieve in different ways, thats all.

[Walter]

^Well said. Everyone is different in times like that. It is all speculation.

Enjoying everyone's input on this thread, I had heard about JPJ wanting to quit in '74 and I always assumed it was due to their constant recording, touring and hard partying - but this has been a very educational exchange of information (for the most part).

Peace.

[slave to zep]

^^ thankyou. i just think that, well, we were not there, so how on earth could we make judgements about something like that? sometimes, when you think there can be no excuse for someones behaviour, you find out that there indeed was. also, if there were some bad feelings between jimmy and robert, or others, it may not have even anything to do with karacs untimely death. we simply dont know.

[AllisonAdler]

Some people actually do know, but clearly others love to play the doubting/second guessing game. Oh well, I suppose it passes the time.

[slave to zep]

well, unless people on this forum choose to tell the truth about who they are, then we are not to know they are close to the band, and that what they say is factual. i mean, unless someone comes out and says " i am a close personal friend / relative, and i have discussed this with _____ and this is fact, then it has to be supposition. a lot of people on here wont even put their gender or country in their profiles.............

[Misty]

well, unless people on this forum choose to tell the truth about who they are, then we are not to know they are close to the band, and that what they say is factual. i mean, unless someone comes out and says " i am a close personal friend / relative, and i have discussed this with _____ and this is fact, then it has to be supposition. a lot of people on here wont even put their gender or country in their profiles.............

but, even if they did say this, how are we to believe them? how could a statement like that be proven on this board?

[AllisonAdler]

well, unless people on this forum choose to tell the truth about who they are, then we are not to know they are close to the band, and that what they say is factual. i mean, unless someone comes out and says " i am a close personal friend / relative, and i have discussed this with _____ and this is fact, then it has to be supposition. a lot of people on here wont even put their gender or country in their profiles.............

Is "numerous personal conversations" not enough for you then? If you choose not to buy it, fine, but it seems a bit pointless. What other motive than actual truth would anyone have for saying something of this nature?

By the way, MSG, lovely post--I didn't see it when you originally wrote it, so thanks for sharing your experiences again!

Edited May 24, 2008 by AllisonAdler

[slave to zep]

Is "numerous personal conversations" not enough for you then? If you choose not to buy it, fine, but it seems a bit pointless. What other motive than actual truth would anyone have for saying something of this nature?

By the way, MSG, lovely post--I didn't see it when you originally wrote it, so thanks for sharing your experiences again!

sorry, who has had " numerous personal conversations"? anyway, they would have had to have had a conversation with jimmy regarding the subject that im referring to.

[slave to zep]

Is "numerous personal conversations" not enough for you then? If you choose not to buy it, fine, but it seems a bit pointless. What other motive than actual truth would anyone have for saying something of this nature?

By the way, MSG, lovely post--I didn't see it when you originally wrote it, so thanks for sharing your experiences again!

oh, if you are referring to Knebby here, then yes, i absolutely trust what she has to say. but as i said, i doubt whether she has spoken to jimmy regarding this topic.