The Ossetian Conflic

[greenman]

Your coming up with alot of very generalised points Dan rather than argueing the specific idea that Russia's actions in the last century or so have tended to be worse than the US or the UK. Obviously politicans in a strong democracy(which I don't think Russia is right now) will have to hide there wrongdoings more but the increase focus will also tend to limate those wrongdoings.

[I have got a horsey]

Yes, this was taken from the same web site that I posted earlier. You can do a google search on any one of these thugs and find these statistics all over the web.

I think your opinion is slightly biased, and perhaps maybe you don't know Soviet history too well

[zepyep]

Hi all,

Get real, get fucking real, you say that to me, go fucking look up or google your self just how many innocent people the Americans have killed, then post back to me.

And dont treat me like an idiot, and dont move the goal posts, Americia and GB have commited acts of genocide, maybe not as recent as Russia but nontheless they have still done it. Since ancient times we have been a barbarous people. We have commited great acts of genocide the world over, just as you have. Fact.

Are you forgetting what you did to the Red Indians, the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Filopinos, the Iraqis, the Japanese. Yes, you dont like to admit to that do you? You even kill your own students, and presidents, and even the fucking Buffalo you had to destroy. Your cops are forever killing your citizens and your citizens are killing each other and your fucking TV and Films have driven our kids to behave like your fucking retarded scum sucking kids as well. Now you have made me angry, and I'm a pacifist and your making even me want to go to war with you. The whole fucking world hates you and you cant even see it. You are loathed, but I still love you Americia.

I wish someone would start a "Why I hate America." thread so I could ignore it,...

Danny,even when the subject has none or little to do with America,you rant on about our sins.This about Russia's invasion of Georgia.

KB(two wrong's don't make a right)

[eternal light]

updated 2 hours, 27 minutes ago

BRUSSELS, Belgium - Russia halted all military cooperation with NATO, the Western alliance said Thursday, in the latest sign of East-West tension over the invasion of Georgia.

Alliance spokeswoman Carmen Romero said NATO had received notification through military channels that Russia’s Defense Ministry had taken a decision “to halt international military cooperation events between Russia and NATO countries until further instructions.”

The United States immediately played down the significance of the Russian decision, saying that NATO had already effectively frozen cooperation in protest at Russia’s continued military presence in much of Georgia.

“For all practical purposes, military-to-military cooperation had really already been ended with the Russians,” said U.S. National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe, with vacationing President Bush in Crawford, Texas.

“I can’t imagine a circumstance right now that we would engage in military cooperation with the Russians until the situation in Georgia is resolved.”

In a move that angered Russia, NATO foreign ministers on Tuesday said they would make further ties with Russia dependent on Moscow making good on a pledge to pull its troops back to pre-conflict positions in Georgia. But they stopped short of calling an immediate halt to all cooperation.

Moscow also bristled at NATO’s insistence that Georgia could one day join the alliance and by an agreement signed Wednesday allowing the United States to base anti-missile interceptors in Poland.

The U.S. State Department called the Russian move “unfortunate.” Spokesman Robert Wood told reporters in Washington, “we want Russia to work with us” despite U.S. concerns about the Georgian invasion.

“We still have some very important issues that we need to work with Russia on,” Wood said.

'Russia's help is critical for NATO'

Under a 2002 agreement that set up the NATO-Russia Council, the former Cold War foes began several cooperation projects. They include sharing expertise to combat heroin trafficking out of Afghanistan, developing battlefield anti-missile technology, joint exercises and help with rescue at sea.

Romero said she was unaware of any specific events under the cooperation agreement scheduled before early September.

NATO itself decided last week to suspend plans for a Russian warship to join NATO counterterrorism patrols in the Mediterranean Sea, deciding it was inappropriate after the outbreak of fighting in Georgia.

Earlier Thursday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov suggested that NATO needs Russia more than Moscow needs NATO, and Russian cooperation with NATO’s efforts against militants in Afghanistan could be jeopardized.

“Russia’s help is critical for NATO,” Lavrov said in televised comments in Moscow.

He said that after the NATO foreign ministers’ meeting “leading alliance members came to us and whispered in our ears, hoping that we do not halt cooperation with NATO on Afghanistan.”

Signs of tensions

Moscow signed an agreement with NATO in April authorizing the alliance to send non-lethal supplies to its troops in Afghanistan through Russian territory.

However, NATO officials said the alliance has not started to use routes through Russia since it has yet to conclude the necessary transit arrangements with Central Asian nations lying between Russia and the Afghan border.

In another sign of tensions, Moscow has called its ambassador to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, home for consultations, a diplomat at the Russian mission at alliance headquarters said.

Rogozin will leave Friday for “some time” said the diplomat, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to give his name for attribution.

Russian media reported Wednesday that Rogozin’s discussions in Moscow would include the question of future military cooperation with the alliance.

Meanwhile, three NATO warships sailed into the Black Sea on Thursday for what the alliance said were long-planned exercises and routine visits to ports in Romania and Bulgaria not linked to the conflict in Georgia.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26331771

[I have got a horsey]

NATO is just a Cold War relic, and it doesn't really serve any purpose other than to continue American military intimidation of Russia.

[Uncle Bill]

NATO's purpose is to provide a counter balance to Russian ambitions.

There, fixed.

[BIGDAN]

Your coming up with alot of very generalised points Dan rather than argueing the specific idea that Russia's actions in the last century or so have tended to be worse than the US or the UK. Obviously politicans in a strong democracy(which I don't think Russia is right now) will have to hide there wrongdoings more but the increase focus will also tend to limate those wrongdoings.

Hi 'greenman'

Lets get this straight once and for all, I am not saying that The US or GB have done worse than what Russia or Chinia or even Japan have done the last century, far from it.

But people on here, American people, are taking the moral high ground, and you cant do that when your hands are covered in blood just like the Russians are now.

If the Russians have blood up to their armpits then the US have it up to their elbows or wrists or knuckles, it dosen't really matter does it? It's still blood, civilian blood, innocent blood.

When it comes to judgement day God aint gonna give you brownie points for not being as bad as the Russians or Chineese is he, and you fools put your hands on your hearts when you sing your national anthem and ask God to protect you and help you and save you, really what kind of fools are you, he will condem you for what you have done and send you to the diety you are worshiping now, the Devil.

For you KB just so I keep on topic.

This Georgian conflict, let me give my opinion.

Georgia left the USSR and formed a Democratic Government.

Georgia wont let South Ossetia leave to form a state with its northern neighbour North Ossetia.

Link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war

South Ossetia, which has a Georgian ethnic minority of around one fifth (14,000) of the total population (70,000), broke away from Georgia in the 1991–1992 war (in which more than 2,000 people are believed to have died.

If Democracy is to work worldwide then the US should be on the Majoritys side, the South Ossetians as they are 80% of the population in that region.

This conflict has been going on since 1991, 17 years, now the war has escalated and the Russians have intervined to help their fellow Russians in South Ossetia.

Russia is right.

Georgia is Wrong.

Americia is wrong.

Anyone who sides with Georgia is wrong, including people on this forum.

If you think that Americia is not involved somewhere in this conflict, you are wrong.

There are Isralie millitary personel in Georgia and I would susspect the CIA are active as well. I maybe able to confirm this at a later date but my contact is unavailable at the moment, but he will know something for sure, as he works closely with those mentioned above.

So if Americia backs Georgia in this conflict, then what I have said about Americia being no better than Russia and China will be proven right, Americia will prove it is an undemocratic nation, and proves it is as autocratic as Russia or China. Fact. And Russia will be exonerated as a country that went to war in Georgia for a Democratic reason, to help the people of South Ossetia gain Democratic independence from its oppressor Georgia.

I know its hard to believe that Russia is in the right, but this time I think I have proved my point. Are you all happy with that, esp you KB, are you OK with what I have said?

Kind Regards, Danny

[XerSizNRite]

As an American and not knowing much about this region of the world, can someone answer me this:

Is the land that “South Ossetia” resides in, defined as within Georgian borders and/or part of the Georgian territory?

[BIGDAN]

Big Dan, I went all the way back to the cave man. Then I went to modern history. And in Modern History, no one but you says that America or Great Britan has committed genocide. History shows that the Soviets have several times. And as far as your claim of being a pacifist, that's bull. You are the first to fly off the wall when you dissagree with anyone else around here. Now you want to "Take me to War". Grow up, rather you like it or not many do not agree with you. And, do you have to curse so much to try to prove your point??

Go off and get educated, didn't your country teach you about what you did to the Red Indians, the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Filopinos, the Iraqis, the Japanese. Yes, you dont like to admit to that do you? You even kill your own students, and presidents, and even the Buffalo you had to destroy. Your cops are forever killing your citizens and your citizens are killing each other and your TV and Films have driven our kids to behave like your retarded scum sucking kids as well.

I have said this before but you didn't answer this statement, why the hell not? because it blows your retoric out of the water. Your arguement is destroyed, your country has done things as bad as Russia but you wont admit it. So to hell with you, if its all going to be one way with you then this post will end. You dont listen to reason do you?

I dont give a toss about what your thoughts are about me, I dont fly off the wall when someone disagrees with me, only people who constatly wont listen to the facts and thats you right now. If you dont agree with me then thats fine, but you go on and on about what Russia has done and nothing about your own country and when I put you right about that you ignore the Facts and carry on with your retoric as if I have said nothing.

I dont want to go to war with you, you just make me so angry. I have taken all the curses out so as not to offend your good self, as for people not agreeing with me, thats democracy and I will have to live with it. Could you let me know just how many there are that disagree with me, and how many that do, as I do not have this information to hand.

I'll leave it at that for now, thanks for the wind up 'srplane', you and KB gave it to me really good this time, much oblijed to you all. And I hope every one was entertained.

Many thanks, Danny

[Uncle Bill]

As an American and not knowing much about this region of the world, can someone answer me this:

Is the land that “South Ossetia” resides in, defined as within Georgian borders and/or part of the Georgian territory?

from danny's wiki link:

The United Nations, European Union, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Council of the European Union, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and all other countries in the world recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia.

This is what keeps the situation from being as cut and dried as Danny would have us believe.

[I have got a horsey]

There, fixed.

Still living in the 1950's, eh?

[Uncle Bill]

Still living in the 1950's, eh?

Yeah, apparently that's his plan.

[BIGDAN]

As an American and not knowing much about this region of the world, can someone answer me this:

Is the land that “South Ossetia” resides in, defined as within Georgian borders and/or part of the Georgian territory?

Hi 'XerSizNRite'

At the moment South Ossetia is defined as within the country of Georgia. It wants Independence as there are 80% Ossetians living there, but Georgia wont let it, this war has gone on since 1991.

Heres a link to the conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war

Regards, Danny

[BIGDAN]

from danny's wiki link:

The United Nations, European Union, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Council of the European Union, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and all other countries in the world recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia.

This is what keeps the situation from being as cut and dried as Danny would have us believe.

Its a pity you only picked out the part of the link that would give your arguement credence, stop haveing sly digs and post something with substance as I have, you act as if you are a CIA operative.

[Uncle Bill]

Its a pity you only picked out the part of the link that would give your arguement credence,

You really should read and comprehend a post before replying to it.

I didn't make an argument, I picked the part of the link that answered his question.

[marolyn]

you act as if you are a CIA operative.

shhhh...there are russians here...

[eternal light]

As an American and not knowing much about this region of the world, can someone answer me this:

Is the land that “South Ossetia” resides in, defined as within Georgian borders and/or part of the Georgian territory?

More than 37,000 refugees from South Ossetia have applied to the Russian Migration Service for temporary shelter in Russia. And a monastery in North Ossetia, where a children's rehabilitation centre was once created for the victims of the Beslan tragedy, is now helping South Ossetian refugees.

The children's rehabilitation center within the (Epiphany) Convent was first created for the victims of the Beslan tragedy for those children who saw the horrors of September, 2004. But no one expected that in just four years time the doors of the monastery will be opened again, now for south Ossetian families.

The mother superior went to Tskhinvali (pronounced Tinvali) to bring water to the victims when the battle was still underway. She managed to get out of the conflict zone, a Muslim family. For her there is no difference in religion anymore when people are crossing the first commandment, thou shalt not kill.

The sisters in the monastery have many relatives in south Ossetia because the border between the republics is for politicians. For the people there is no such divide; it has never existed. For us it has always been one Ossetia, and one nation.

The convent has received almost thirty tons of humanitarian aid, which has been distributed among families living here. A group of doctors as well as ~ and psychologists are working with them. So far fifteen children have been Christians. Many children who lost their homes are now here with the people of the monastery. Some of them are still afraid to go back. People here are trying to create conditions so the children can feel safe and secure on their return. Almost all families here say they will return to their native region.

"We have been offered different cities to move to... Thanks to all of them, but I will return to my home. Everyone to whom I spoke wants to return where they came from."

The head nun says all mothers here are heroes, as they managed to get their children out of the war.

Lolita, mother of ten children, managed to run away with her seven children, as well as her son who can't walk. "The tanks approached our village. Our village is right on the major highway that connects south Ossetia and north Ossetia. They spoke to each other as they drove their tanks. They fired on our houses. Also there were four policemen posted next to our house. But how could they defend against tanks with their rifles? Georgians killed them straight away."

Meanwhile mothers here continue to look at their phones waiting for a call from the other side of the border saying it's safe now to return.

-Martina Kushna, Russia Today (RT), Republic of North Ossetia

http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/29126/video

NEW YORK: August 12, 2008

STATEMENT from the Chancery of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Church Abroad On the Events in South Ossetia

In the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit!

It is with great concern that I follow the developments in South Ossetia, and hasten, on behalf of the First Hierarch and Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, to call upon all of our God-loving flock to fervent prayer.

We know how it has come to pass that there has been artillery shelling, the destruction of residential blocks, hospitals, nearby towns, how the wounded and the refugees were forced to evacuate under sniper fire, almost exclusively women and children. We do not know, moreover, the future consequences of the bloodshed we are witnessing now. All we can do is sympathize with the victims both here and there. Sorrow and pain rends our hearts, too, because facing each other in conflict are brotherly peoples—brothers through their historical roots, and in their Orthodox faith.

We are no strangers to Ossetia and know of these events from firsthand accounts. Even before the signing of the Act of Canonical Communion between both parts of the Russian Orthodox Church, the German Diocese of the Russian Church Abroad supported the construction of a monastery and trauma center after the Beslan tragedy. Our Australian and New Zealand parishes also provided significant aid. We intend to continue to support the nuns of this holy monastery, which was consecrated with the participation of representatives of the Russian Church Abroad. Now this convent is overfilled with refugees from Tskhinvali traumatized by the assault. The Abbess of the Convent, Mother Nonna, is already in Tskhinvali herself, caring for the wounded.

I express my own profound empathy and the prayerful support of our First Hierarch, who is now in Australia on First-hierarchal visit, and of the fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia to His Holiness Patriarch Alexy, to His Holiness Patriarch-Katolikos Ilia II of All Georgia, to Archbishop Feofan of Stavropol and Vladikavkaz, and to their clergy and flocks.

In these days preceding the lenten period of the Dormition of the Most-Holy Mother of God and before the Transfiguration of the Lord, the thoughts and prayers of the entire Russian Church Abroad are with the victims, their relatives and the God-preserved peoples of Russia, Georgia and Ossetia. Prayer is the ultimate appeal to the Almighty God, Who is Love, and of course, our hearts can never be directed against anyone but the enemy of mankind, the slanderer and "murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own." We pray for the repose of the souls of those who perished in the military actions, which spared not peaceful citizens. May the Lord "grant His people strength," as the Prophet and Psalmist David wrote, to overcome these sorrows and its consequences through peaceful dialog. And then, and only then, "the Lord will bless his people with peace." Blessed peace will help us Orthodox Christians serve as an example of good life to all of mankind, and will bring many "alien to the Divine life" into the wondrous Light of Orthodoxy.

With love in the Lord, and a request for your prayers,

+ KYRILL

Archbishop of San Francisco and Western America

Secretary of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia

August 11, 2008

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/...nakosettia.html

By Mansur Mirovalev, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

ALAGIR, Russia - Sarmat Kapisov ran all night through the forest with his family, fleeing the fighting in South Ossetia and headed for the Georgia-Russia border. On his back, the 17-year-old carried his brother, who has cerebral palsy.

"It wasn't easy," Kapisov said, huddled alongside his mother and seven siblings, who have taken refuge here at an Orthodox convent across the Russian border.

The convent director, known as Mother Nonna, said thousands have passed through since the bloodshed began a week ago in the pro-Russian separatist province claimed by Georgia.

Most were South Ossetian women and children on their way to a refugee centre set up inside a summer camp by Russian authorities. Many of the fathers and older brothers stayed behind to fight.

Mother Nonna said she had never seen so many terrified children clinging to their mothers' skirts.

"The most difficult thing was to answer their question: Where was God?" she said. "They had so much fear in their eyes."

Of the more than 100,000 people the UN refugee agency says have been uprooted by the conflict, an estimated 30,000 have fled across the border into Russia. About twice as many have gone the other direction, toward the Georgian capital.

When the war started, the Kapisovs spent days hiding in the basement of their home in South Ossetia. The mother and eight children fled. The father and two oldest brothers stayed behind to fight the Georgians alongside the Russian military.

The mother, Lolita Kapisova, 45, said Georgian tank fire later demolished their house.

"The most horrible thing was when the tanks arrived," she said, wearing a brown-and-yellow patchwork dress and clutching her month-old daughter.

After walking for a night, the family found a military convoy that helped get them to the convent, which has provided food and medicine to refugees. Thirty tonnes of supplies have poured into the convent from the Russian Orthodox Church alone.

"We are working around the clock," Mother Nonna said. "We drowned in the flood of refugees."

Recently washed children's clothing is strewn across the railings outside the convent, which functioned as a summer camp for the Communist youth group during the Soviet era and now includes a special rehabilitation centre for children who survived the 2004 terrorist siege of a school in nearby Beslan.

Dzara Kumeritova, an assistant at the convent, said that the refugees from South Ossetia all arrived terrified, most of the children too scared to eat for the first day or two.

"Somebody slammed the door and the crowd shivered," she said.

Lyudmila Khanikaeva, 21, had been breast-feeding her four-month-old daughter but she lost her milk for two days because her body was in a state of shock. She fled Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian provincial capital, with her daughter, sister and mother at the front of a pack of refugees.

"Those who followed us died," her sister, Zarina, 24, said, recalling gunfire, mines and tank shooting. "We were shot at all night."

Zarina said her father and husband stayed in Tskhinvali to fight. Their mother, Antonina, who said she crossed a forest full of dead bodies when fleeing town, was worried about them.

"Most mothers here are tortured because they don't know what happened," she said.

Russia has said about 2,000 people died in the fighting this week, though that number has not been independently confirmed.

Though international aid organizations have rushed to the rescue in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, the Russian government is handling the refugee crisis here mostly on its own, in part because western aid organizations do not have access or were not called in.

Russian authorities had yet to allow the Red Cross access to South Ossetia as of Wednesday.

As the fighting has begun to subside, with a fragile ceasefire plan signed on both sides, some scattered signs of hope have emerged here, despite the harrowing tragedy of the past week.

As Kumeritova said, "We knew the kids were getting better when they started misbehaving."

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2008/08/14/6452991-ap.html

An Agreement Between the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate on the Joint Construction in Beslan of a Monastery and Rehabilitation Center is Signed

On March 10, 2005, at the Patriarchal Residence on Chisty pereulok, an agreement was signed between the Stavropol and Vladikavkaz Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate and the Diocese of Berlin and Germany of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia on the joint construction of Epiphany Convent in Beslan (Northern Ossetia/Alania). A therapeutic and trauma center will be built at the convent as well.[url=http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/mpbeslan.html]http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01news...5/mpbeslan.html

"The leaders of Russia? They support us," said Zakhar Valeyev, 48, an artist working at a restored Orthodox convent on the banks of the Ardon River, where more than 30 refugees had found shelter. He said he had gone to Tshkinvali on Saturday to plead with his brother to flee, but his brother refused.

Many Ossetians said they were angry with the United States, an ally of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, and accused the U.S. of supporting his military strike to regain control of South Ossetia.

"The world powers don't see the situation in the North Caucasus," said Nona Bagayeva, the head of the convent. "And they don't do anything to stop the situation."

"The whole world has come to hate America," she said.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=383&sid=1456753

Jewish Quarter targeted in Georgian offensive

An entire Jewish Quarter has been wiped out as a result of Georgia's military offensive in Tskhinvali. Witnesses in the South Ossetian capital say there's hardly a home standing in the area where the city's Jewish population lived.

Mikhail Gorbachev on Russian Georgian Conflict pt.1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSd_FNhZEZs

Mikhail Gorbachev on Russian Georgian Conflict pt.2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZNjKMS6onc

General Clark on Russian-Georgian Conflict

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AgDeCPgoiA

Mikhail Saakashvili, President Republic of Georgia /// Ronnie Wood, Musician, Painter; Various slide from Ronnie Wood's paintings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3j6vsScQmk

[Medhb]

I think your opinion is slightly biased, and perhaps maybe you don't know Soviet history too well

And you do? I know someone who IS an expert. Condoleeza Rice....

[Medhb]

NATO is just a Cold War relic, and it doesn't really serve any purpose other than to continue American military intimidation of Russia.

Then why are the Australians members? From your posts Gains it seems that Australians are the only people that really know what's going on or understand Russians and/or/and/or.....

I'd like to know why you are allowed back here after banning if Hermit isn't??

[BIGDAN]

Wow big Dan, for a pacifist you sure are full of hate. Have you ever read how your friends the Indians tortured and killed each other's tribes to gain territory? And, if you go back far enough in history, arguments can be made that the American Indians were not the first on the soil either. I do believe that China had something to do with the korean conflict too. As far as Veitnam, we did not treat it like a war to win, (it was political) it was a disaster for all concerned. Must admit that I am not up on the Filopinos. The two friends of mine that are Filopinos sure are happy to be Americans though. The Iraqis, well I think that the war in Iraq has been one of the most successfull wars of all time and is now won. And the Japanese. I'm sure that you would have rather America lost a couple more hundred thousand American troops invading Japan to stop WWII then to drop the bomb.

As far as our kids. You are the one that likes to go back in history. Lets go back to the British Music Invasion. Drugs are what have caused 98% of all our problems and the Beetles "Strawberry fields", "Sgt. Pepper", etc,. got most of it started.

And..................there have been more idiots at your soccer games over the years killed and hurt then in all our schools combined.

Now go ahead Big Dan the "little" Pacifist. Scream me down and curse me like the closed minded person that you are. While I may dissagree with you.................you are the one that has shown disrespect over and over around here.

And by the way, I hope that when you find your "little" Utopia, there will still be a buffalo roaming so you can sit on your bench, drink your beer and enjoy it. LOL

Stop going off topic, and dont make it personal with me because I aint scared of your bullying ways like the rest of the world are. I posted the facts like I always do and it blew your argument away. Now get back on topic or "uncle bill" will chastise you like he did me. And I thank him for that because it allowed me to look up the facts and post them on here and make you look like the American Red Neck that you are, and that you cant tell fact from fiction just like your government. OK, job done, I'm finnished with you cos you aint entertaining me anymore. So bye bye and go find some other Innocent Civilian Victim to intimidate just like your government does oh so well.

Regards, Danny

PS. "While we were marching through Georgia" is that an American or Russian song.

See link please. http://www.friesian.com/ross/marching.htm

Is that back on topic now "uncle bill".

[beatbo]

Big Dan, I went all the way back to the cave man. Then I went to modern history. And in Modern History, no one but you says that America or Great Britan has committed genocide. History shows that the Soviets have several times. And as far as your claim of being a pacifist, that's bull. You are the first to fly off the wall when you dissagree with anyone else around here. Now you want to "Take me to War". Grow up, rather you like it or not many do not agree with you. And, do you have to curse so much to try to prove your point??

sorry, i have to interrupt here. can anyone show me a native american? a race that used to populate almost the entire northern hemisphere-gone. a few thousand remain? a picture on a football helmet? reservation: it's not just a table at a restaurant.

know anyone who is "part-cherokee"? or "part-choctaw" or "part-pueblo"? i know bunches. where's the whole ones? ground to dust by a government that wanted elbow room for it's citizens. adolph hitler called it "lebensraum"- living space.

i have no inclination to enter this discussion any further than this. i know that most americans that have never lived abroad and only know what the talk radio and the news station hammer into them but there is a time when we will be liable for policy that we allowed our government to make in our name. russia is trying to "permantly reserve" it's access to fossil fuel. that's a fact. they are doing it by unwanted invasion. that's a fact. it is also very similar to what we did in the persian gulf war when iraq went in to kuwait -and then so did we. not because we gave a rat's ass about the kuwaiti citizens. we wanted to protect our fuel interests. for real fact.

i was flipping the car radio around today, looking for some weather. i landed on some raging right wing talk show, and as a student of the second world war, i could not help but think of joseph goebbels-the nazi propaganda minister. the haranguing against anyone who dissagrees with with the current administration and it's party. no mistakes made by our side. only wrong from the other side. only calls from people who agree. no wonder some americans have so little patience when others disagree with them-especially foreigners. they depend on these cats for their political opinions.

let's try to stick with they facts. not the truth-that has interpretive value.

fact: great britian and genocide? i recommend the 2001 book "late victorian holocausts" by mike davis-detailing the british exporting a record amount of wheat out of india while the farmers in the deccan plateau starved from famine. an act was passed that criminalized private relief donations. the only relief came in the form of labor camps, where workers were given less food than at buchenwald. all to fund lord lytton's war in afganistan. 1877. you must have missed that if you went back to the cavemen. other books: "britain's gulag" by caroline elkins, "histories of the hanged" by david anderson, and "web of deceit" by mark curtis. they will also tell you about tasmania, the mau mau revolt in kenya-100,000 civilians shot or starved by the empire.

was all this genocide successful? are there still some of these people around? yes. the most successful extermination of a race is a almost a tie between....

well, enough thought provokement from me.

i am not here to condone or defend anything anyone has said. it doesn't matter to me-i know from experience no one's mind can be changed here. it's a poor format for that. better to provoke thought, allow people to see for themselves. but facts, please. and leave the cavemen out of it...

[BIGDAN]

sorry, i have to interrupt here. can anyone show me a native american? a race that used to populate almost the entire northern hemisphere-gone. a few thousand remain? a picture on a football helmet? reservation: it's not just a table at a restaurant.

know anyone who is "part-cherokee"? or "part-choctaw" or "part-pueblo"? i know bunches. where's the whole ones? ground to dust by a government that wanted elbow room for it's citizens. adolph hitler called it "lebensraum"- living space.

i have no inclination to enter this discussion any further than this. i know that most americans that have never lived abroad and only know what the talk radio and the news station hammer into them but there is a time when we will be liable for policy that we allowed our government to make in our name. russia is trying to "permantly reserve" it's access to fossil fuel. that's a fact. they are doing it by unwanted invasion. that's a fact. it is also very similar to what we did in the persian gulf war when iraq went in to kuwait -and then so did we. not because we gave a rat's ass about the kuwaiti citizens. we wanted to protect our fuel interests. for real fact.

i was flipping the car radio around today, looking for some weather. i landed on some raging right wing talk show, and as a student of the second world war, i could not help but think of joseph goebbels-the nazi propaganda minister. the haranguing against anyone who dissagrees with with the current administration and it's party. no mistakes made by our side. only wrong from the other side. only calls from people who agree. no wonder some americans have so little patience when others disagree with them-especially foreigners. they depend on these cats for their political opinions.

let's try to stick with they facts. not the truth-that has interpretive value.

fact: great britian and genocide? i recommend the 2001 book "late victorian holocausts" by mike davis-detailing the british exporting a record amount of wheat out of india while the farmers in the deccan plateau starved from famine. an act was passed that criminalized private relief donations. the only relief came in the form of labor camps, where workers were given less food than at buchenwald. all to fund lord lytton's war in afganistan. 1877. you must have missed that if you went back to the cavemen. other books: "britain's gulag" by caroline elkins, "histories of the hanged" by david anderson, and "web of deceit" by mark curtis. they will also tell you about tasmania, the mau mau revolt in kenya-100,000 civilians shot or starved by the empire.

was all this genocide successful? are there still some of these people around? yes. the most successful extermination of a race is a almost a tie between....

well, enough thought provokement from me.

i am not here to condone or defend anything anyone has said. it doesn't matter to me-i know from experience no one's mind can be changed here. it's a poor format for that. better to provoke thought, allow people to see for themselves. but facts, please. and leave the cavemen out of it...

At last, an American with dignity who tells the facts as they are.

You mention my country, Britain, as a nation that performed genocide, am I mad at you, hell no, tell the truth and you dont offend anyone.

Take a bow, Friend, Regards, Danny

[zepyep]

Hi all,

sorry, i have to interrupt here. can anyone show me a native american? a race that used to populate almost the entire northern hemisphere-gone. a few thousand remain? a picture on a football helmet? reservation: it's not just a table at a restaurant.

know anyone who is "part-cherokee"? or "part-choctaw" or "part-pueblo"? i know bunches. where's the whole ones?

I thought so beatbo!

Can you show me a pure Celt?Mori?Persian?No?Now please show me somewhere an indigenous people still rule their lands?Ireland?Nope.North America,South?

[Lake of Shadows]

Then why are the Australians members? From your posts Gains it seems that Australians are the only people that really know what's going on or understand Russians and/or/and/or.....

I'd like to know why you are allowed back here after banning if Hermit isn't??

Because he hasn't posted a jab (playful or otherwise) at that person I shall not name (I'm keeping it a mystery). Perhaps the emperor doesn't bother with horseys, as it requires an entirely different wardrobe.

[marolyn]

Then why are the Australians members?

pssst...they're not.