zepyep Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hi all,euro, You know why this stinks? Because Wallstreet believes in Capitalism when markets are rising and socialism when markets are falling Who is going to pay for this? The American taxpayer in perpetuity You like the pork attached to the bill? No but who says the US treats its citizens fairly-it is all about privilege and buying influence You like the finger pointing and the non-responsibility? Dems blam Rep and vice versa after all the name on the political game is either the another political party,level of government or foreign government You think anyone is going to jail for this? No why would you want to deny the American people of these great entrepreneurs.Also as long as their is plausible denialbility it is difficult to pin anything on anyone. Damn right and wrong!A CEO gets a 40+million package,the company lost 80+million,do the math,....Think the movie "Network" 'Am as mad as hell,and I'm not going to take it anymore!' KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docron Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 OF COURSE THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR THIS What, do you think just the upper-class people should pay for this!? Why? And on what grounds? I've got news for you.., the market crash was as much YOUR fault as it was mine - as it was Paris Hilton's - as it was Bill Gates' - as much as it was any other Joe Six-12-pack... No why on earth should YOU have to pay any less than anyone else? Is it that you think all men are supposedly created equal sometimes but not others?! Ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Zeppnile Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 I think that would be called 'modern man' sweetheart Yeah, I heard they have some of those types up in San Fransico. But I have another word for them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrum Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Yeah, I heard they have some of those types up in San Fransico. But I have another word for them.... Their nard huggers don't leave much to the imagination do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepyep Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hi all,docron, You didn't read my post,did you? OF COURSE THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR THIS What, do you think just the upper-class people should pay for this!? Why? And on what grounds? I've got news for you.., the market crash was as much YOUR fault as it was mine - as it was Paris Hilton's - as it was Bill Gates' - as much as it was any other Joe Six-12-pack... No why on earth should YOU have to pay any less than anyone else? Is it that you think all men are supposedly created equal sometimes but not others?! Ridiculous. WTF are you talking about,.....AGAIN?This thread was about the stock market,...I thought,....... KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docron Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Hi all,docron, You didn't read my post,did you? I've got news for you.., the market crash was as much YOUR fault as it was mine - as it was Paris Hilton's - as it was Bill Gates' - as much as it was any other Joe Six-12-pack... No why on earth should YOU have to pay any less than anyone else? Is it that you think all men are supposedly created equal sometimes but not others?! Ridiculous. WTF are you talking about,.....AGAIN?This thread was about the stock market,...I thought,....... KB Yea, I read your post, probably better than you did... EVERYONE includes more than just the middle class.. i.e., rich people like Bill Gates and Paris Hilton, which I brought out as examples. Maybe we could get a good discussion going if your points against me were more than just shots at me. Going about it in this way is both childish and inefficient... I have yet to see a valid argument against any of my points... Don't take it out on me because you might not have enough money to help you along in a time of crisis - you should've planned ahead... And before you go any further, I'll let you know that I'm 100k in debt myself.., but I'm not in debt because of the market, I made a sound investment towards my future (college) To think its just the middle class that will pay for this is just stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docron Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Heres some information on the percentage of at-risk home prices by state from PMI: red=largest percentage at risk white=average blue=least percentage at risk The region graphs shows mid-west to be predictibly stable while the coasts are really volitile and most at-risk (as of 2006), but I realize alot has changed since then... Notice the trends on all the graphs around 1987, the last great stock market crash... they all peak at a high risk then fall off in the period following the crash. If I may speculate, the percentage of at-risk homes has peaked at a high once again in 2008.., marked by the recent crash... hopefully we see the same results for the housing market as shown by 1987. I wish this data included the recent market crash in it as well - I will keep my eyes open for it - will be interesting to compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 OF COURSE THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR THIS What, do you think just the upper-class people should pay for this!? Why? And on what grounds? I've got news for you.., the market crash was as much YOUR fault as it was mine - as it was Paris Hilton's - as it was Bill Gates' - as much as it was any other Joe Six-12-pack... No why on earth should YOU have to pay any less than anyone else? Is it that you think all men are supposedly created equal sometimes but not others?! Ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docron Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Ridiculous. Care to back up your claim with some facts/opinions? Or is "ridiculous" all you can derive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzldoc Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 SHOT IN THE FANNIE MAE The History of a Financial Disaster 1997 Fannie Mae is a GSE (Govt. Sponsored Entity) regulated by Congress. Fannie Mae buys mortgages from other companies. It is backed by the taxpayers for all losses, but keeps all profits. President Clinton loosens Home Loan Requirements. 1998 Banks begin making thousands of bad loans,0 down, no documentation, for 120%! (1998 – 2008). Executives at Fannie receive huge bonuses if loan targets are met. Franklin Raines and Jamie Garelick from the Clinton Administration are appointed to run Fannie Mae. 2003 President Bush proposes a new oversight committee to clean up Fannie Mae, but Democrats derail the effort. Rep. Melvyn Watt, (D-NC) Committee on Financial Institutions & Consumer Credit. stated, "I don't see much other than weakening the bargaining power poorer families to get affordable housing." 1999 - 2004 Raines earns $100 million in bonuses. Garelick earns $75 million in bonuses. In 2004, Enron collapses, congress investigates, Executives Skilling & Lay go to jail, for fraudulent bookkeeping. Congress responds with the Sorbanes- Oxley Act, more heavy regulation of corporations. 2004 An OMB investigation finds massive fraudulent bookkeeping at Fannie Mae. False numbers triggered executive bonuses every year. Congress holds no hearings, no one goes to jail, or is punished. WHY NOT? 1999 -2005 Fannie Mae gives millions to Democratic causes, examples: Jesse Jackson & ACORN. Fannie Mae pays millions to 354 congressmen and senators, from both parties. Who got the most money? Top 4 Recipients #1 Sen. Christopher Dodd, (D-CT) Chairman of the Banking, Housing, & Urban Affairs Committee #2 Sen. Barack Obama, (D-IL) Federal Financial Management Committee Top 4 Recipients #3 Sen. Chuck Schumer, (D-NY) Chairman of the Finance Committee #4 Rep. Barney Frank, (D-MA) Chairman of the House Financial Services Committe 2005 Franklin Raines & top execs are forced to resign from Fannie Mae. They do not go to jail. There is no media "perp. walk." They keeps all of their bonuses They finally pay $31.4 million in civil fines. 2005 The Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act is sponsored by: #325 Sen. John McCain, (R-AZ) Armed Services, & Commerce, Science, & Transportation "If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole." 2005 None of the top 4 recipients support the legislation. The reform act is blocked by Democrats, never even making it out of committee. None of the politicians return any of the money, tainted by fraud. 2008 Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac go bankrupt and the govt. takes them over completely. Lehman Brothers, goes bankrupt from investing in bad mortgages. AIG get $85 million in loan guarantees, after insuring bad loans & projects. Taxpayers will ultimately pay BILLIONS. 2008 Franklin Raines is now an advisor to the Obama Campaign which wants the govt. to take over more of the economy. Did government involvement in the mortgage market work out? How will even MORE government involvement make it better? Do you want to be Sweden? McCain favors revising regulations & loan standards, selling off Fannie & Freddie. SOURCES Congressional Record, 5/25/06 "Hannity & Colmes," Fox News, 9/16- 9/17/08 Herald Tribune, 4/18/08 New York Times, 9/13/03 www. govtrack.com, 9/17/08 Prof. Dennis Jantz, 2008 you're thouhgts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Zeppnile Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 SHOT IN THE FANNIE MAE The History of a Financial Disaster 1997 Fannie Mae is a GSE (Govt. Sponsored Entity) regulated by Congress. Fannie Mae buys mortgages from other companies. It is backed by the taxpayers for all losses, but keeps all profits. President Clinton loosens Home Loan Requirements. 1998 Banks begin making thousands of bad loans,0 down, no documentation, for 120%! (1998 – 2008). Executives at Fannie receive huge bonuses if loan targets are met. Franklin Raines and Jamie Garelick from the Clinton Administration are appointed to run Fannie Mae. 2003 President Bush proposes a new oversight committee to clean up Fannie Mae, but Democrats derail the effort. Rep. Melvyn Watt, (D-NC) Committee on Financial Institutions & Consumer Credit. stated, "I don't see much other than weakening the bargaining power poorer families to get affordable housing." 1999 - 2004 Raines earns $100 million in bonuses. Garelick earns $75 million in bonuses. In 2004, Enron collapses, congress investigates, Executives Skilling & Lay go to jail, for fraudulent bookkeeping. Congress responds with the Sorbanes- Oxley Act, more heavy regulation of corporations. 2004 An OMB investigation finds massive fraudulent bookkeeping at Fannie Mae. False numbers triggered executive bonuses every year. Congress holds no hearings, no one goes to jail, or is punished. WHY NOT? 1999 -2005 Fannie Mae gives millions to Democratic causes, examples: Jesse Jackson & ACORN. Fannie Mae pays millions to 354 congressmen and senators, from both parties. Who got the most money? Top 4 Recipients #1 Sen. Christopher Dodd, (D-CT) Chairman of the Banking, Housing, & Urban Affairs Committee #2 Sen. Barack Obama, (D-IL) Federal Financial Management Committee Top 4 Recipients #3 Sen. Chuck Schumer, (D-NY) Chairman of the Finance Committee #4 Rep. Barney Frank, (D-MA) Chairman of the House Financial Services Committe 2005 Franklin Raines & top execs are forced to resign from Fannie Mae. They do not go to jail. There is no media "perp. walk." They keeps all of their bonuses They finally pay $31.4 million in civil fines. 2005 The Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act is sponsored by: #325 Sen. John McCain, (R-AZ) Armed Services, & Commerce, Science, & Transportation "If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole." 2005 None of the top 4 recipients support the legislation. The reform act is blocked by Democrats, never even making it out of committee. None of the politicians return any of the money, tainted by fraud. 2008 Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac go bankrupt and the govt. takes them over completely. Lehman Brothers, goes bankrupt from investing in bad mortgages. AIG get $85 million in loan guarantees, after insuring bad loans & projects. Taxpayers will ultimately pay BILLIONS. 2008 Franklin Raines is now an advisor to the Obama Campaign which wants the govt. to take over more of the economy. Did government involvement in the mortgage market work out? How will even MORE government involvement make it better? Do you want to be Sweden? McCain favors revising regulations & loan standards, selling off Fannie & Freddie. SOURCES Congressional Record, 5/25/06 "Hannity & Colmes," Fox News, 9/16- 9/17/08 Herald Tribune, 4/18/08 New York Times, 9/13/03 www. govtrack.com, 9/17/08 Prof. Dennis Jantz, 2008 you're thouhgts? GREAT POST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alucard Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Taxpayers will ultimately pay BILLIONS. Your thoughts? Yep it's a scam. Only thing I can think of is to NOT be a taxpayer. Dont' be a part of the system, be apart from the system. You or I can't change it. These things will only get worse and to have some kind of pipedream that politicians from any party can make it better is just a fuzzy feel good, blind vision. They won't be getting any money from me on this bailout. I can't believe the multitude of millions and millions who buy into this political system. Corruption seeps into all aspects of it and will always. NO ONE (You, me, Obama or McCain) will or can ever change that. Fuck 'em all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lake of Shadows Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Yep it's a scam. Only thing I can think of is to NOT be a taxpayer. Dont' be a part of the system, be apart from the system. You or I can't change it. These things will only get worse and to have some kind of pipedream that politicians from any party can make it better is just a fuzzy feel good, blind vision. Easily said... not so easily done, unless one has already been under the radar for quite awhile. The idea that one can simply just do that, without consequences, is probably just fuzzy, feel good, blind vision. They won't be getting any money from me on this bailout. I can't believe the multitude of millions and millions who buy into this political system. Corruption seeps into all aspects of it and will always. NO ONE (You, me, Obama or McCain) will or can ever change that. Fuck 'em all. Of course they won't get any of your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docron Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Fuckin' "Americans"... so damn opinionated, no matter what education level they've (not) achieved. It's simple really... if you don't like the system, defect to Russia or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigstickbonzo Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Alot of business professors and friends with business degrees who I've recently talked to all agreed on one thing: the stock market will bounce back, if and when it completely crumbles first. Otherwise, the bailout will do absolutely nothing for us because 700billion + 140 billion of bullshit is only about 1/4 of what will actually be needed to spend to fix the problem. Gee, let's keep pissing away money overseas so we can keep borrowing from China, India and UN. But no, that's unpatriotic to pull out when the "job isn't done." These are the same boneheads who scream all that "America, love it or leave it" bullshit. We'll see if you're still all patriotic (or whatever other catch phrases and slogans you misuse to bad mouth people who might actually have a clue) when this country is really fucked. That hour is coming. And I agree with "The Nuge," rebellion is a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Alot of business professors and friends with business degrees who I've recently talked to all agreed on one thing: the stock market will bounce back, if and when it completely crumbles first. The market needs to bounce back pretty soon. The Dow Jones Average dropped below 10,000 today. NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- The Dow Jones Industrial Average briefly fell as much as 800 points to trade below the 10,000 mark Monday as nervousness over the credit crisis spread. But hopes of a coordinated global intervention to stop the bleeding in global markets helped the Dow recoup half of its losses, to close down 369 points, or 3.6%, at 9,955. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/stoc...&dist=msr_7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Fuckin' "Americans"... so damn opinionated, no matter what education level they've (not) achieved. It's simple really... if you don't like the system, defect to Russia or something. Eat Shit and Die, I say...... It's time America REALLY let the "other" nations fall DEEPLY to the bottom of the abyss ..... we're in there too..... just closer to the top ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6 OCT 2008 We risk a disintegration of global finance within days. Nobody will be spared, unless they own gold bars. Chancellor Angela Merkel has been forced to pull her head out of the sand, guaranteeing all German savings, a day after she rebuked Ireland for doing much the same thing. Reality intrudes. During the past week, we have tipped over the edge, into the middle of the abyss. Systemic collapse is in full train. The Netherlands has just rushed through a second, more sweeping nationalisation of Fortis. Ireland and Greece have had to rescue all their banks. Iceland is facing an Argentine denouement. The US commercial paper market is closed. It shrank $95bn last week, and has lost $208bn in three weeks. The interbank lending market has seized up. There are almost no bids. It is a ghost market. Healthy companies cannot roll over debt. Some will have to sack staff today to stave off default The European Central Bank – which raised rates into the teeth of the crisis in July – has played a shockingly destructive role in this enveloping slump. Its growth predictions this year have been, and still are, delusional. Neglecting its global role, it has vastly complicated the fire-fighting efforts of Washington. It could have offered “cover” to the US Federal Reserve this spring when Ben Bernanke was forced by events to slash rates to 2pc. It could at least have signalled an end to monetary tightening. That is how an ally ought to behave. Instead, it stuck maniacally to its Gothic script, with equally unhappy consequences for both sides of the Atlantic, as well as for China, Japan, and India. The euro rocketed yet further, which it turn set off an oil shock as crude metamorphosed into an anti-dollar with leverage. Far from offering reassurance, the weekend mini-summit of EU leaders served only to highlight that nobody is in charge of this runaway train. There is still no lender of last resort in euroland. The £12bn stimulus package is risible. Angela Merkel has revealed her deep limitations. It was she who vetoed French efforts to launch a pan-EU rescue package, suspecting that any lifeboat fund would prove to be Trojan Horse – a way of co-opting German taxpayers into colossal transfers of wealth to Latin Europe. In that she is right, but it is too late now for dysfunctional EU political games. By demanding that those who caused the damage should pay for it, she crossed the line into caricature, or worse. Her comments echo word for word the “we’re alright Jack” attitudes of Euro-pols during the first US banking crises in 1930-1931, until the storm hit Europe and the entire cast was swept away by furious electorates, or simply shot. Thankfully, this EU stupidity is at last drawing serious criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olipticle Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 My thoughts are its only going to get alot worse before it gets any better what so ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigstickbonzo Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Hey, atleast gas prices are falling. (Below 90bucks a barrel today). Too bad once the election is over and winter kicks in, sky rocketing heating prices are gonna put people out on the streets, along with more credit failures and a complete stock market crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Hey, atleast gas prices are falling. (Below 90bucks a barrel today). Too bad once the election is over and winter kicks in, sky rocketing heating prices are gonna put people out on the streets, along with more credit failures and a complete stock market crash. Saw gas for $3.01 per gal today. Filled up yesterday at $3.19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 was epic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alucard Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Easily said... not so easily done, unless one has already been under the radar for quite awhile. The idea that one can simply just do that, without consequences, is probably just fuzzy, feel good, blind vision. One can always go under the radar, it just depends on how much you have vested in the system that increases difficulty. Consequences only occur when you get caught up in the mess, and that as hard as it may be, can be avoidable. It's not for the blind, but those who can see well enough to live it. Of course they won't get any of your money. Damn right ! Usage taxes are one thing, but income tax is another. Pillow cases are better than institutions anyway. There are investments to be made that never go through banks or financial entities and bring alot higher return with the risk you take. One has to live this lifestyle to make it work, must understand it and embrace it. There really aren't that many out there that do it. Luck is also a factor, but that's with anything. The key is the desire and fortitude to follow one's heart, principles and to recognize your destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirchzep27 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 On one hand i cant understand how bankers couldnt balance these books....on the other hand i'm thinking this could be a growing pain of technology. But then again with technology, how could they stop loss.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigstickbonzo Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I wonder how many more press conferences Bush says "America is not in a recession." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirchzep27 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 ^Yeah, or "rebate checks". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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