Relationship Status Update

[Dzldoc]

Sorry Peppermint!

I'm feeling super single lately. I don't know why. Had a semi-date thing last week....it went really well. He just today EMAILED me asking "how's the job hunting going?" The date was last Tuesday night. Lame.

I'd put him on my blocked list

[~Bonnie~]

Here's the deal A bird in Hand is worth two in the bush.

I'll break it down it is easier to meet girls if you find them interesting. The ones you didn't find interesting were. You just can't read a sitituation. You are a poor judge of yourself. When you find that all women are interesting then they will find you interesting. Too many guys are trying to impress the girls. They are not interested in what you think they are.

You need to

Listen

Just listen to them. THey won't steer you wrong. They mess with your head. They don't play games as you call it.. They just want you to

Hear

them , The clues they are giving you, The advice they are giving you and the direction their lives are going.

Take a break from your own fragile ego and Listen to what the ladies are telling you.

That's is why they get so disappointed in men because we don't listen to them

That is a great post. I officially LOVE you.

[Lake of Shadows]

If you like to go downtown fine. But i am careful about what i put in my mouth.

So am I, especially when I go downtown.

[Electrophile]

Why is Spats calling it "going downtown"? It's called oral sex. Say that. You sound like a teenager in sex ed otherwise, dude.

[Gainsbarre]

Get it yet, Gainsbarre?

Okay I grant you that i haven't been around as long, and may not fully be aware of the history, but a lot of what he says I understand.

[Gainsbarre]

I tried that when i was a teen and failed miserably. I wasn't successful until i did wait for them to fall in my lap. Funny thing is for the most part the only girls who had interest in me in high school were girls i had no interest in.

The same thing happened to me. And in fact you can often find youself in a position whereby you're only interested in girls that aren't interested in you, and if a girl is interested in you, then you're not interested in her.

That's a fully recognised, and common, issue. Actually Stephen Sondheim wrote a song about it in his 1971 Broadway musical "Follies". It was called Buddy's Blues and it went:

"Ive got those God-why-don't-you-love-me-oh-you-do-I'll-see-you-later Blues.

That long as you ignore me you're the only thing that matters feeling..."

And it's a situation that affects a lot of people who have suffered rejection in their life or people with low self-esteem. Because your life has been about trying to chase love and approval off people, you cannot respect someone who's willing to just love you for who you are, because what the fuck is wrong with them if they're willing to say yes to me??? How can you respect someone who actually loves you?

And there's a distinction between your own self-esteem and your perceived self-esteem. Spats may have a huge ego about how he's the best person on the planet, HOWEVER, he may have terrible confidence in how other people perceive him. He may have confidence in himself, yet may actually believe that everybody else doesnt.

[manderlyh]

Fuuny part is, I'd be perfectly OK with that!

That's my point!

Exactly my point!!!!

If I had a good date, and I knew the other person was also excited about it, I wouldn't hesitate to call if I knew it was a sure thing.

If I wasn't too sure, I may wait...it all has to do with the actual person, I guess.

I'd be freakin' thrilled to hear my phone ring the same night of a date--even if it was a not-so-hot date! Just to know that the guy was that excited that I had gone out with him that night!

[JAG]

Why is Spats calling it "going downtown"? It's called oral sex. Say that. You sound like a teenager in sex ed otherwise, dude.

Just on a related note ... I always wondered what ole Petula Clark was getting at with this going "Downtown" business. I had suspected that she was inviting people to her city's urban core for a good time.

How naive of me.

When you're alone, and life is making you lonely

You can always go -- Downtown

And you may find somebody kind to help and understand you;

Someone who is just like you and needs a gentle hand to

Guide them along...

So maybe I'll see you there,

We can forget all our troubles; forget all our cares, and go

Downtown -- things will be great when you're

Downtown -- don't wait a minute more

Downtown -- everything's waiting for you...

[Mattmc1973]

That's actually some pretty good insight, Gainsbarre. But, and I'm not being sarcastic or a jerk when I say this, I'm just basing it on our experience with Spats...don't expect him to understand your insight, or be able to take any of it to heart. He'll frustrate you to no end by not getting what you said AT ALL. You'll see.

You'll see when interacting with him that he's a bizarre and fascinating combination of anomalies: low self-esteem, but can't admit it. If that was all, you could try and chip away at it, but he also has weird points of view on many things. He wants to put ZERO effort into a relationship with a girl, he wants what he wants when he wants it, but wants to reciprocate NOTHING. Basically, as he says, he wants a "pretty" girl to hang out with and go to movies with, nothing more. I guess that's fine if you're 14, but how many women (not girls) want that? How many of them want a guy who:

- Won't make a move on them, expects them to approach and ask for phone number

- If you give him all the signs that you're interested, but don't directly give him your number, that's playing games. But if he has your number, he might wait a week to call because he doesn't want to seem desperate. And if that's too long for you, then you should call him. That's not a game to him, apparently.

- Won't do anything with them that is exactly what he wants to do...won't see any movies he doesn't want to see, won't go to weddings with them...NO COMPROMISES

- Wants to lay on his back during sex and let them do all the work, won't perform oral sex, or do anything adventurous

- Though he admits he's not good-looking, only wants "hotties" and not "plain janes"

I could go on and on, like I said, we've been dealing with this guy for a year or two now, and the more you learn, the more incredible it gets. Enjoy!

[Mattmc1973]

That's my point!

Exactly my point!!!!

If I had a good date, and I knew the other person was also excited about it, I wouldn't hesitate to call if I knew it was a sure thing.

If I wasn't too sure, I may wait...it all has to do with the actual person, I guess.

I'd be freakin' thrilled to hear my phone ring the same night of a date--even if it was a not-so-hot date! Just to know that the guy was that excited that I had gone out with him that night!

Nope, you shouldn't expect a call from Spats for a week or more. It's against the "rules", and one can't seem desperate. Of course, Spats felt the New Year's Eve girl was playing games, and he hated that. So figure that double-standard out...

[manderlyh]

Nope, you shouldn't expect a call from Spats for a week or more. It's against the "rules", and one can't seem desperate. Of course, Spats felt the New Year's Eve girl was playing games, and he hated that. So figure that double-standard out...

Then Spats doesn't get a second date from Manders... LOL

Not that his "rules" would get him a FIRST date...

....especially after I learned the Downtown Rule...

[Dzldoc]

What's with this guy? as much time as he spends on the computer pissn and moaning he'll never find anything. Talks like he's 16 yo christ.

[Gainsbarre]

That's actually some pretty good insight, Gainsbarre. But, and I'm not being sarcastic or a jerk when I say this, I'm just basing it on our experience with Spats...don't expect him to understand your insight, or be able to take any of it to heart. He'll frustrate you to no end by not getting what you said AT ALL. You'll see.

You'll see when interacting with him that he's a bizarre and fascinating combination of anomalies: low self-esteem, but can't admit it. If that was all, you could try and chip away at it, but he also has weird points of view on many things. He wants to put ZERO effort into a relationship with a girl, he wants what he wants when he wants it, but wants to reciprocate NOTHING. Basically, as he says, he wants a "pretty" girl to hang out with and go to movies with, nothing more. I guess that's fine if you're 14, but how many women (not girls) want that? How many of them want a guy who:

- Won't make a move on them, expects them to approach and ask for phone number

- If you give him all the signs that you're interested, but don't directly give him your number, that's playing games. But if he has your number, he might wait a week to call because he doesn't want to seem desperate. And if that's too long for you, then you should call him. That's not a game to him, apparently.

- Won't do anything with them that is exactly what he wants to do...won't see any movies he doesn't want to see, won't go to weddings with them...NO COMPROMISES

- Wants to lay on his back during sex and let them do all the work, won't perform oral sex, or do anything adventurous

- Though he admits he's not good-looking, only wants "hotties" and not "plain janes"

I could go on and on, like I said, we've been dealing with this guy for a year or two now, and the more you learn, the more incredible it gets. Enjoy!

But the fact that he might not want to put any effort in to a relationship, and may not reciprocate anything at all is highly indicative of low self-esteem, because usually the reasoning is "well why bother? I'm only going to be rejected at the end". He may believe inside that there's no reason to put any effort in or reciprocate because he may feel he has nothing to offer that the girl is going to want.

And by saying that he just wants a pretty girl to hang with or go to the movies with and nothing more is also another indication of this.

By not having a serious expectation on a relationship, or even picking someone who is likely to lead to a serious situation, then it takes a lot of pressure off. Because serious expectation or effort could lead to the situation whereby he would actually be in a serious relationship and that would lead to an intensification of rejection fears and of the pressure of having to be someone or something, which, due to his low self-esteem, he may not actually believe he could fulfill.

My guess is that he's consumed with fears. A girl maybe giving him some signs but not giving him her number, that stirs up the fears because he'll probably want absolute 100% proof she likes him, so by not giving the phone number, it'll only encourage the doubting.

So I think, psychologically, the situation is this:

- Self-esteem is too low to have the confidence to approach people

- not giving him your number will only result in paranoia and doubt over what the signals meant, was she just being polite? She must've been, didn't give me her number. This is the fear of rejection.

-He's going to wait a week before he calls because he's worried that the girl is going to think he's desperate, so already he's fixated on the negative outcomes of the situation. This is all related to low self-esteem and rejection fears.

- No compromises means relationship chances are unlikely. And it may be far easier for him to live alone with just the fantasy of being in a relationship. Otherwise going for it and making the compromises puts him in a position where he actually has to be the guy in reality, too much pressure to be, again, what people expect.

- Won't do anything during sex because, again, what happens if he sucks at sex?? She's gonna dump him or laugh at him... Hasn't got the self-esteem to be proactive in bed.

- Says he's not good looking and only wants hot girls. Well walking around town with a hot girl on your arm certainly is good for your self-esteem, it's a type of social validation "look, I must be all right, because she's with me" (and it works, trust me, I've been in that situation). The psychological answer is that by just wanting to be with hot girls, he's making sure that he keeps thing fantasy-focused instead of reality-focused. If, for arguments sake he's not good looking, but only goes for hot girls, then there's less chance of it actually becoming a reality, it'll more than likely just stay a fantasy. And with low self-esteem its easier to live in fantasy than reality.

And also it might be quite easy for him to get a plain jane, but possibly because of his self-esteem and rejection fears, and feeling the psychological need to chase for affection/acceptance, he is not going to respect someone he doesn't have to chase. And with a hot girl, there is more chance for chase, and more chance for rejection.

But I know what you're thinking, if he has rejection fears, why chase someone who's going to reject him?

Well the psychological theory (well mine, at least) is this:

When we are younger, or children or whatever, we learn and understand what relationships are.

For example, if you're a child, and you're parents rejected you or bullied you, then your psychological understanding of what a loving and secure relationship is a relationship where you're being rejected or bullied but seeking love and acceptance.

So as you get older, instead of actually finding and grasping that love and acceptance you were longing for as a child, all you end up doing is replicating the situation you were in when you were younger. Because that new relationship fits the template for the older one.

When people do find that love or acceptance, the relationship can suddenly not feel right, because it does not match the relationship template that you learned as a child or a young adult. And if you were in a bullied or rejected relationship as a child, then that's what your template will be, that's what you'll always be looking for. Not to seek an outcome to that situation, but to replicate it.

It's a theory, probably debatable. but worth thinking about

[Electrophile]

Seriously dude, you have no clue about the force you're trying to support. Both on the old board and this one, we've tried giving him advice every time he asks for it. I mean TONS of advice, and he constantly finds excuses for why they won't work. He doesn't want advice, he doesn't want help, he wants a fucking pity party.....so don't fall for his shit and act like you can help him. You can't. He's beyond the reach of those who don't carry psychotherapy degrees and licenses.

[Gainsbarre]

Seriously dude, you have no clue about the force you're trying to support. Both on the old board and this one, we've tried giving him advice every time he asks for it. I mean TONS of advice, and he constantly finds excuses for why they won't work. He doesn't want advice, he doesn't want help, he wants a fucking pity party.....so don't fall for his shit and act like you can help him. You can't. He's beyond the reach of those who don't carry psychotherapy degrees and licenses.

I'm not giving him advice, I'm just trying to help you guys understand why this particular situation isn't so weird, it's perfectly explainable.

If you read my first post to him, you would've seen that I didn't offer him any help or advice at all.

My advice to him, actually, would be 'try to find some enjoyment in being single, because that's the most likely outcome'.

[Mona]

Single and happy about it.

[Chien Noir]

Seriously dude, you have no clue about the force you're trying to support. Both on the old board and this one, we've tried giving him advice every time he asks for it. I mean TONS of advice, and he constantly finds excuses for why they won't work. He doesn't want advice, he doesn't want help, he wants a fucking pity party.....so don't fall for his shit and act like you can help him. You can't. He's beyond the reach of those who don't carry psychotherapy degrees and licenses.

So why do you all people keep feeding that attention wh*re with what he wants?

[Electrophile]

Because a part of me hopes he snaps and realizes we're right. That there's a lot of relationship experience on this board and that he can be helped.

It's fruitless, but it's better than watching network TV.

[Mattmc1973]

I'm not giving him advice, I'm just trying to help you guys understand why this particular situation isn't so weird, it's perfectly explainable.

If you read my first post to him, you would've seen that I didn't offer him any help or advice at all.

My advice to him, actually, would be 'try to find some enjoyment in being single, because that's the most likely outcome'.

Gainsbarre, again, good analysis and I agree (have psychology and sociology degrees myself). But the main problem with getting through to Spats, is that he can't admit he has self-esteem or confidence issues. Everything this guy ever says screams low self-esteem, but he always comes back with some naive childlike response like "I don't have low self-esteem, I just don't want to repeat what happened to me as a teen, is that wrong?" I agree, a guy who's not "hot" only ever pining for "hot" girls is a safe play. Only going after the unattainable means you will wind up alone, which is probably deep down what he wants.

Interesting stuff...

[Gainsbarre]

Gainsbarre, again, good analysis and I agree (have psychology and sociology degrees myself). But the main problem with getting through to Spats, is that he can't admit he has self-esteem or confidence issues. Everything this guy ever says screams low self-esteem, but he always comes back with some naive childlike response like "I don't have low self-esteem, I just don't want to repeat what happened to me as a teen, is that wrong?" I agree, a guy who's not "hot" only ever pining for "hot" girls is a safe play. Only going after the unattainable means you will wind up alone, which is probably deep down what he wants.

Interesting stuff...

Well yeah, despite all the actions and reactions that people do, they can be completely oblivious to their self-esteem issues. And it can take an awful long time for the penny to drop.

I think at this stage in his life, he's probably not seriously interested in real relationships.

But I mean you know he could just be playing a game with everybody, who knows?

But I try not to be judgemental (unless I'm insulting someone ) so in that regard these are just theories and only Spats will ever know the truth...maybe...

[Lake of Shadows]

But the fact that he might not want to put any effort in to a relationship, and may not reciprocate anything at all is highly indicative of low self-esteem, because usually the reasoning is "well why bother? I'm only going to be rejected at the end". He may believe inside that there's no reason to put any effort in or reciprocate because he may feel he has nothing to offer that the girl is going to want.

And by saying that he just wants a pretty girl to hang with or go to the movies with and nothing more is also another indication of this.

By not having a serious expectation on a relationship, or even picking someone who is likely to lead to a serious situation, then it takes a lot of pressure off. Because serious expectation or effort could lead to the situation whereby he would actually be in a serious relationship and that would lead to an intensification of rejection fears and of the pressure of having to be someone or something, which, due to his low self-esteem, he may not actually believe he could fulfill.

My guess is that he's consumed with fears. A girl maybe giving him some signs but not giving him her number, that stirs up the fears because he'll probably want absolute 100% proof she likes him, so by not giving the phone number, it'll only encourage the doubting.

So I think, psychologically, the situation is this:

- Self-esteem is too low to have the confidence to approach people

- not giving him your number will only result in paranoia and doubt over what the signals meant, was she just being polite? She must've been, didn't give me her number. This is the fear of rejection.

-He's going to wait a week before he calls because he's worried that the girl is going to think he's desperate, so already he's fixated on the negative outcomes of the situation. This is all related to low self-esteem and rejection fears.

- No compromises means relationship chances are unlikely. And it may be far easier for him to live alone with just the fantasy of being in a relationship. Otherwise going for it and making the compromises puts him in a position where he actually has to be the guy in reality, too much pressure to be, again, what people expect.

- Won't do anything during sex because, again, what happens if he sucks at sex?? She's gonna dump him or laugh at him... Hasn't got the self-esteem to be proactive in bed.

- Says he's not good looking and only wants hot girls. Well walking around town with a hot girl on your arm certainly is good for your self-esteem, it's a type of social validation "look, I must be all right, because she's with me" (and it works, trust me, I've been in that situation). The psychological answer is that by just wanting to be with hot girls, he's making sure that he keeps thing fantasy-focused instead of reality-focused. If, for arguments sake he's not good looking, but only goes for hot girls, then there's less chance of it actually becoming a reality, it'll more than likely just stay a fantasy. And with low self-esteem its easier to live in fantasy than reality.

And also it might be quite easy for him to get a plain jane, but possibly because of his self-esteem and rejection fears, and feeling the psychological need to chase for affection/acceptance, he is not going to respect someone he doesn't have to chase. And with a hot girl, there is more chance for chase, and more chance for rejection.

But I know what you're thinking, if he has rejection fears, why chase someone who's going to reject him?

Well the psychological theory (well mine, at least) is this:

When we are younger, or children or whatever, we learn and understand what relationships are.

For example, if you're a child, and you're parents rejected you or bullied you, then your psychological understanding of what a loving and secure relationship is a relationship where you're being rejected or bullied but seeking love and acceptance.

So as you get older, instead of actually finding and grasping that love and acceptance you were longing for as a child, all you end up doing is replicating the situation you were in when you were younger. Because that new relationship fits the template for the older one.

When people do find that love or acceptance, the relationship can suddenly not feel right, because it does not match the relationship template that you learned as a child or a young adult. And if you were in a bullied or rejected relationship as a child, then that's what your template will be, that's what you'll always be looking for. Not to seek an outcome to that situation, but to replicate it.

It's a theory, probably debatable. but worth thinking about

Excellent points... and it's perhaps the only way I can wrap my brain around the notion that he's 'real' rather than role-playing (I refuse to call him a troll).

One question though... if things are as you suggest, why oh why does he come here to post his viewpoint, and more than once, after all the 'suggestions' he's gotten? Folks initially tried to answer him honestly and seriously... well, as if he was serious... but after his responses, folks have just entertained themselves at his expense or considered throwing themselves on their own swords in frustration.

I get it about low self-esteem issues... (oh lawsy, I get it)... but if I got anything like the crap we have given him, I'd have been long gone. I'm quite able to feel like I'm an idiot without relying on everybody else to point it out to me... repeatedly.

[Mattmc1973]

^ Gainsbarre...No, he doesn't want serious relationships, he readily admits that. But that's not what everyone gives him crap about. Take the recent New Years incident for example, I'll recap for you...

- Spats always talks about not wanting to approach at bars, because he doesn't want to be rejected

- Spats was at a New Years party, where he talked to a girl all night, and gathered she was interested in him. She wasn't a "hottie", and was bit of a "plain Jane", but cute.

- At the end of the night when they were saying goodbye, he gathered that she was hoping he'd ask for her number

- Spats wouldn't ask for it, because he felt that if she was interested in him, she should do the asking. He felt she was playing games, and didn't like that.

- Spats' friends gave him grief for not getting the girl's number, when she was clearly interested in him. We all said the same, it was a case where he would not have been rejected and had an easy shot at a date. But Spats said it was against his "principles" to ask for a number from someone who was playing games with him.

- Spats' friend saw the girl a few weeks later, and explained that Spats had been too shy to ask for the number, and the girl gave it to his friend to give to Spats

- Spats was then angry at his friend for making him "look bad", by telling the girl he was shy, when he says that's not the case, it's just that the girl should have asked HIM for his number, and not been playing games

- Spats never called the girl

- It has been about 7 weeks since this incident, and Spats is still on here talking about it.

What's your take on that? Can you see how people would get frustrated with him? He had an easy shot at a phone number and a date, and wouldn't have been rejected which is his greatest fear, but decided he didn't want a girl who couldn't come out and ask for his number, it was against his principles. Amazing, eh?

[Mattmc1973]

Oh, and I'm eagerly awaiting Spats' responses to all of this. You see, he comes on about once a day, usually in the afternoon, and will post about 3-4 responses to the posts about him since yesterday. There's been a lot of good analysis last night and today, let's see how much of it he acknowledges or takes to heart. Let me just go ahead and predict...ZERO.

[spats]

Give me time. Some of the posts are long and i don't know how to quote certain parts. How do you do that? It's difficult to respond to long posts.

[manderlyh]

Give me time. Some of the posts are long and i don't know how to quote certain parts. How do you do that? It's difficult to respond to long posts.

I usually jut hit quote and edit out what I don't want. If you want to do it multiple times, you put each section you want in brackets. You know, like this [ q u o t e ] and then [ / q u o t e ] without the spaces. If you want to respond to multiple posts, hit the "quote" button at the bottom of the posts and then hit "post reply" when you've got everyone's quotes that you want to work with. If you want to cut out HUGE hucnks of a post put an elipses (or a ...) in where you cut words.