Strider Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Christopher Lees said: I've been listening to the whole tour for 25 years. I have no opinion on the personal regrets of the fans who went to see the 77 shows. My comment was not about their opinions, but rather the shows themselves. Even the best 77 shows have Jimmy in sloppy mode, all night, every night. In no single show or even a single song, did he achieve the levels of fluidity he achieved in 71-73. On top of that, Plant can't sing after the 73 tour, and even the 73 tour was pretty bad compared to 68-72. When Robert Plant sounds like me in my car trying to sing Zeppelin and Jimmy in sloppy mode, it's just not the same. The best 77 shows are really just a B and hardly even a B+ while the best 71-73 shows are clearly A+. Your argument goes off the rails here. Plant in 1977 (save for a few moments in Seattle) is in far better voice than in 1975 and 1973. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Lees Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, Strider said: Your argument goes off the rails here. Plant in 1977 (save for a few moments in Seattle) is in far better voice than in 1975 and 1973. Not to my ears. He has a couple nights where it's not too bad in some songs, like on 6-13-77 on OTHAFA, but it's not comparable to 68-72. Since I've Been Loving you comes to mind. Listen to him in September 1970 in Hawaii and then listen to any show in 77 and it's a crying shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepHead315 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Christopher Lees said: Not to my ears. He has a couple nights where it's not too bad in some songs, like on 6-13-77 on OTHAFA, but it's not comparable to 68-72. Since I've Been Loving you comes to mind. Listen to him in September 1970 in Hawaii and then listen to any show in 77 and it's a crying shame. Plant is not to the level he was in 68-72, but he's still miles better in 77 than in 75 or 73. His range is much improved and he rarely cracks or croaks. Here is Plant on what is considered a "good" night for him in 1975: And here is Plant on a good night in 1977: Are you honestly telling me you hear no difference? He sounds hoarse and low for pretty much all of 1975. In 1977, with a couple of exceptions (Seattle, Tempe) he's got a much better range and sounds strong. Like I said, he's certainly not back to the level he was in his early years. But to say he couldn't sing is false. He's better in 77 than 73 or 75 that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Christopher Lees said: Not to my ears. He has a couple nights where it's not too bad in some songs, like on 6-13-77 on OTHAFA, but it's not comparable to 68-72. Since I've Been Loving you comes to mind. Listen to him in September 1970 in Hawaii and then listen to any show in 77 and it's a crying shame. I take it you're judging his vocals by his range? Yes, Plant had a completely different range after 72. But in 73 and 75 he struggled not only with range, but with constant throat problems which caused him to sound hoarse for the first three numbers. In 77 he was at least able to gain control back and sing with confidence. As for Page, he never truly hit 73 level, but there are a few moments in 77 where he played very close on a technical level. "Even the best nights had Jimmy in sloppy mode". I gotta strongly disagree with that and I'm super critical of Page. Maybe 75, but he regained some control of his syncopation in 77 and had better phrasing. 75 Page is an articulation disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Lees Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 7 hours ago, ZepHead315 said: Plant is not to the level he was in 68-72, but he's still miles better in 77 than in 75 or 73. His range is much improved and he rarely cracks or croaks. Here is Plant on what is considered a "good" night for him in 1975: And here is Plant on a good night in 1977: Are you honestly telling me you hear no difference? He sounds hoarse and low for pretty much all of 1975. In 1977, with a couple of exceptions (Seattle, Tempe) he's got a much better range and sounds strong. Like I said, he's certainly not back to the level he was in his early years. But to say he couldn't sing is false. He's better in 77 than 73 or 75 that's for sure. Well, you certainly made your point with this stark comparison, using the same song to boot. I hear a pretty significant difference here for sure. But this is the best Plant sounded in 77 and wasnt the norm. It seems to be true that Plant was in better form in 77, on the whole, than in 75. However, it's still obvious that he's just a shell of his former self even on the good nights in 77. Sick Again was a "husky voice" Plant song to begin with, so it fits in with his post 73 style. But on songs like WLL, Black Dog and Stairway, he just can't do the job. One of my first boots was the BBC sessions, long before its official release, and I remember being amazed that Plant could hit all those high notes with such power and ease. Then when I got my first 77 bootleg years later (slim pickins back then, no internet) I was mightily disappointed with Plant's voice and Jimmy's playing. I thought they were supposed to get better with practice, not worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Lees Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 6 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: I take it you're judging his vocals by his range? Yes, Plant had a completely different range after 72. But in 73 and 75 he struggled not only with range, but with constant throat problems which caused him to sound hoarse for the first three numbers. In 77 he was at least able to gain control back and sing with confidence. This is a good observation and I agree. 6 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: As for Page, he never truly hit 73 level, but there are a few moments in 77 where he played very close on a technical level. "Even the best nights had Jimmy in sloppy mode". I gotta strongly disagree with that and I'm super critical of Page. Maybe 75, but he regained some control of his syncopation in 77 and had better phrasing. 75 Page is an articulation disaster. The closest I heard Page to 73 form was May 18, 1975 at EC. Over the Hills and some other tunes had him playing surprisingly well! No Quarter from 2-14-75 is fantastic too and there are others to choose from, but they definitely lack the fluidity, clarity and precision of, say, Europe 73, Japan 71 and others. Sometimes I'll listen to a whole bunch of 77 gigs without listening to anything else. I'll get on a kick like this and it will last a few weeks. My ears get accustomed to the sound and style of 77 and it sounds pretty good. Then I'll put 3-22-73 on and it's just mind blowing. Immediately I can tell that Jimmy was on another level. Maybe a few levels better, not just one level. Thinking back, my first two boots were Blueberry Hill and BBC. Both shows were devastating! I had them for a long time before I finally got a copy of their final show in 1980. I was reading Hammer of the Gods at the time and was so into Zeppelin. I couldn't wait to get home from school and put the tape in and give it a listen. I was shocked. I wondered what happened to the band! The Stairway solo was terrible. The tone was terrible. The black dog solo was horrible. Everything sounded like shit, but I wouldn't admit it until years later, to be honest. Now I'm able to be honest about this stuff, because I'm getting old lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Lees Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) When it comes to Plant, I basically have him in two categories: before he lost his voice and after he lost his voice. In the later years, after his voice broke, he had better nights and worse nights, but neither are even in the same realm as Plant before he lost his voice. That's what I'm trying to say. Put it this way, when it comes to post 73 (even much of 73, frankly), I had to *learn* to like Plant's style. I had to learn how to make the best of it and see it in as positive a manner as possible, whereas in the era of 69-72, no such effort is required. You just listen with your mouth hanging open. I know these things aren't really welcome on a fan site, but I've been reading the comments here for a while, and you guys aren't a bunch of fanboy kids, so I know you can handle it. I'm not bashing Plant. I'm just being open and honest about how I see it. Edited January 5, 2019 by Christopher Lees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepHead315 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 16 hours ago, Christopher Lees said: Well, you certainly made your point with this stark comparison, using the same song to boot. I hear a pretty significant difference here for sure. But this is the best Plant sounded in 77 and wasnt the norm. It seems to be true that Plant was in better form in 77, on the whole, than in 75. However, it's still obvious that he's just a shell of his former self even on the good nights in 77. Sick Again was a "husky voice" Plant song to begin with, so it fits in with his post 73 style. But on songs like WLL, Black Dog and Stairway, he just can't do the job. One of my first boots was the BBC sessions, long before its official release, and I remember being amazed that Plant could hit all those high notes with such power and ease. Then when I got my first 77 bootleg years later (slim pickins back then, no internet) I was mightily disappointed with Plant's voice and Jimmy's playing. I thought they were supposed to get better with practice, not worse. I hear you, and I do agree that Plant in 77 was still a shell of his former self. But I'd argue he was definitely better on the whole than he was in 75 or 73. He could at least sing many of the songs, even if his power was diminished. In 75 he was croaking and cracking all over the place and almost all the opening songs from the shows are downright cringeworthy, especially if you're new to live Zeppelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcio614 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) i want that you know that the fans of the led zeppelin dont know the thuth about the group -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i want that you know that i will do the defense of 4/27/77 because i think that really this show isnt extravagant, but is a fine show and really is a mistake who say that isnt good because the versions of sick again, nobodys fault but mine, in my time of dying since ive been loving you, ten years gone, achilles last stand and kashmir are among the best versions of these songs of the tour and in my opinion i consider this because these versions are very beautiful and special, although they are not extravagant but there are seemingly ordinary shows, that hide special things and this is a good example and this show how was one of the first soundboards released, and he made the joy of many people for a long time and not only for the rarity but also for the quality and i think that deserve this consideration that is good and thank you. Edited January 11, 2019 by marcio614 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcio614 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 i want that you know that the fans of the led zeppelin dont know the thuth about the group -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i want that you know that a good observation is that, i prefer the analog releasing that have more potential and i think that the digital even when improve the sound i think that the sound gets too artificialized, and loses the atmosphere and in this case i have the 6/21/77 tape recorded from a low generation tape, with the original sound without processing and the difference compared to any of these releases with digital sound is absurd in favor of the tape and there are too a big quantity of examples that i can say in favor of old tapes, and the old releasings in lps and the analog is best this i have sure and have been made for a long time, and today with a better preparation would still be better and soon i will post some example of old analog releasing, proving be best than the new digital releasing but the old releases are not always better, because really often the releases were badly mixed but when they were well made they were better that is good and thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 From the aspect of being in the audience, I enjoyed the Robert of 75 even more than the Robert of 1977. This takes all thing into consideration, as a whole. I just like the way Robert moved around in 75 better than 77. I don't dislike 77 Robert. I just enjoyed the visual 75 Robert better. Probably has something to do with D&C, which I'm partial to over ALS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) On 6/25/2018 at 3:37 PM, confounded_bridge said: Hi everyone. I've been reading this forum for a long time and i recently created an account. I enjoy all the twelve years of music that Led Zeppelin gave to us, and i am a huge fan of the 1977 tour. I see that the 77 tour gets slammed by some waterheads here and there, without a reason. I decided to rank all the 77 shows, to prove that most of them are good. THE ORDER IS RANDOM. I included only the shows that we have recordings for. BAD/WEIRD SHOWS Tempe Arizona, July 20 1977 Oklahoma city, April 3 1977 (the band is unrehearsed) Chicago, April 6 1977 (the band is unrehearsed) Chicago, April 7 1977 (the band still sounds a little bit rusty) Landover Maryland, May 26 1977 (IMTOD and Kashmir are trainwrecks) MEDIOCRE-GOOD SHOWS Houston TX, May 21 1977 (good performance) Fort worth TX, May 22 1977 (good performance) Landover, May 25 and 28 1977 (mediocre to good) Cleveland, April 27 1977 (good) Chicago, April 9 1977 (good) Cincinatti, April 19 and 20 1977 (good) Atlanta, April 23 1977 (good) Kentucky, April 25 1977 (good) New York, June 7 1977 (good) San Diego, June 19 1977 (brilliant playing from Jimmy, bad playing from Bonzo) Seattle, July 17 1977 (good show, but shitty SIBLY and Jimmy is lost during the OTHAFA solo) Oakland, July 23 1977 (good show, but Jimmy completely destroys the TYG solo) Oakland, July 24 1977 (good) VERY GOOD-LEGENDARY SHOWS Chicago, April 10 1977 (very good, the only bad moment is the first TYG solo, but Jimmy makes up with the second solo) Cleveland, April 28 1977 (excellent show, one of the best TYG, great NQ, kashmir and ALS) Pontiac, April 30 1977 (excellent, Jimmy plays greatly) Birmingham, May 18 1977 (excellent) Landover, May 30 1977 (excellent) Tampa, June 3 1977 (it started excellent and powerful) New York, June 8,10,11,13,14 1977 (excellent) Los Angeles, June 21,22,23,25,26,27 1977 (epic, legendary shows, with the 22nd being my favorite) I'd like to hear your opinions on my list. Can't really argue with that list. I would add the April 9 and July 24 to the "bad/weird" category but that's about it. Other than the third night, yeah, the Chicago shows are a bit under rehearsed but I'll still take 'em over the Landover shows, which are just lackluster performances all around. The Louisville show is pretty sloppy as well due to the rowdy crowd. The Cleveland April 28 show is still the gold standard for me because IMO that gig is about as technically perfect a performance Zeppelin could give in 1977. Edited July 16, 2019 by Nutrocker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nutrocker said: Can't really argue with that list. I would add the April 9 and July 24 to the "bad/weird" category but that's about it. Other than the third night, yeah, the Chicago shows are a bit under rehearsed but I'll still take 'em over the Landover shows, which are just lackluster performances all around. The Louisville show is pretty sloppy as well due to the rowdy crowd. The Cleveland April 28 show is still the gold standard for me because IMO that gig is about as technically perfect a performance Zeppelin could give in 1977. The King of 77 has spoken! Nice to see you back around here for a min or two... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night_flight3030 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Nutrocker said: Can't really argue with that list. I would add the April 9 and July 24 to the "bad/weird" category but that's about it. Other than the third night, yeah, the Chicago shows are a bit under rehearsed but I'll still take 'em over the Landover shows, which are just lackluster performances all around. The Louisville show is pretty sloppy as well due to the rowdy crowd. The Cleveland April 28 show is still the gold standard for me because IMO that gig is about as technically perfect a performance Zeppelin could give in 1977. The version of Kashmir on that show is Amazing. If not the best they ever done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepHead315 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Nutrocker said: Can't really argue with that list. I would add the April 9 and July 24 to the "bad/weird" category but that's about it. Other than the third night, yeah, the Chicago shows are a bit under rehearsed but I'll still take 'em over the Landover shows, which are just lackluster performances all around. The Louisville show is pretty sloppy as well due to the rowdy crowd. The Cleveland April 28 show is still the gold standard for me because IMO that gig is about as technically perfect a performance Zeppelin could give in 1977. Nutrocker! So cool to see you around here again! We've missed you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
confounded_bridge Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Nutrocker said: Can't really argue with that list. I would add the April 9 and July 24 to the "bad/weird" category but that's about it. Other than the third night, yeah, the Chicago shows are a bit under rehearsed but I'll still take 'em over the Landover shows, which are just lackluster performances all around. The Louisville show is pretty sloppy as well due to the rowdy crowd. The Cleveland April 28 show is still the gold standard for me because IMO that gig is about as technically perfect a performance Zeppelin could give in 1977. Thanks for the reply. I am so glad I see you back!!! Edited July 16, 2019 by confounded_bridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) On 1/5/2019 at 6:40 AM, Christopher Lees said: The closest I heard Page to 73 form was May 18, 1975 at EC. Over the Hills and some other tunes had him playing surprisingly well! No Quarter from 2-14-75 is fantastic too and there are others to choose from, but they definitely lack the fluidity, clarity and precision of, say, Europe 73, Japan 71 and others. Sometimes I'll listen to a whole bunch of 77 gigs without listening to anything else. I'll get on a kick like this and it will last a few weeks. My ears get accustomed to the sound and style of 77 and it sounds pretty good. Then I'll put 3-22-73 on and it's just mind blowing. Immediately I can tell that Jimmy was on another level. Maybe a few levels better, not just one level. I actually think part of the issue was just how good Jimmy was previously, he could basically play in a very loose and often improvised fashion but still retain the tightness needed for a song like Stairway. That meant that when he experienced a bit of a dropoff any weaknesses were MUCH more obvious than in a band who would just play tight rehearsed versions of songs. I think you see Page himself maybe realised that after 77 and I think you see for the 79 comeback shows he's playing tighter and more rehershed, good in one way but also I do think it loses something of the magic of Zep at their best and I'd take the better 77 shows over the Knedworth first night for example. It does mean as well that generally I preffer the songs that are naturally a bit looser in 75-77, DAC. NQ, TU, IMTOD, etc I also think that explains the "under rehearsed" criticism of the band as well, after a period away they were often less impressive(even in the earlier years) and I think part of that is that they depended on having a strong feel for each other which isn't easy to regain quickly, not a question of "just learning the songs". You listen to the band at their absolute peak and they are almost telepathic, my favourite example would be Communication Breakdown from 29/9/71and how perfectly Bonham and Jones follow Page though several unique shifts. That's not I'd imagine something that's easy to pick up and retain without playing together a lot. Edited August 12, 2019 by greenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo_fan Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 On 8/12/2019 at 6:07 AM, greenman said: I actually think part of the issue was just how good Jimmy was previously, he could basically play in a very loose and often improvised fashion but still retain the tightness needed for a song like Stairway. That meant that when he experienced a bit of a dropoff any weaknesses were MUCH more obvious than in a band who would just play tight rehearsed versions of songs. I think you see Page himself maybe realised that after 77 and I think you see for the 79 comeback shows he's playing tighter and more rehershed, good in one way but also I do think it loses something of the magic of Zep at their best and I'd take the better 77 shows over the Knedworth first night for example. It does mean as well that generally I preffer the songs that are naturally a bit looser in 75-77, DAC. NQ, TU, IMTOD, etc I also think that explains the "under rehearsed" criticism of the band as well, after a period away they were often less impressive(even in the earlier years) and I think part of that is that they depended on having a strong feel for each other which isn't easy to regain quickly, not a question of "just learning the songs". You listen to the band at their absolute peak and they are almost telepathic, my favourite example would be Communication Breakdown from 29/9/71and how perfectly Bonham and Jones follow Page though several unique shifts. That's not I'd imagine something that's easy to pick up and retain without playing together a lot. The chemistry on the 9/29/71 "Communication Breakdown" really is phenomenal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1998giventofly Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 I think the 5/22 Fort Worth show belongs in the excellent category. Was recently listening to this show again and came to a point in No Quarter in the 13-15 minute mark where everything came to such an astounding, cohesive climax that I almost choked on my coffee! Outstanding performance overall, I really enjoy this show. Seems like all four members are on fire here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeaceFrogYum Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 I have been listening to several of the songs from July 24th Oakland recently on YouTube and the show sounds pretty good to me so far. Then again I have only listen to six songs but they were evenly dispersed throughout the set. What are other opinions of the July 23rd & 24th 77' Oakland gigs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AchillesLastBand Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 On 9/18/2019 at 2:13 AM, 1998giventofly said: I think the 5/22 Fort Worth show belongs in the excellent category. Was recently listening to this show again and came to a point in No Quarter in the 13-15 minute mark where everything came to such an astounding, cohesive climax that I almost choked on my coffee! Outstanding performance overall, I really enjoy this show. Seems like all four members are on fire here. Uhh I rather agree with you. I'd had Houston 5/21/77 for a while and enjoyed it, though found the sound a bit "harsh" compared to some of the other better-sounding '77s. The Rover (the guy) upthread commented that he considered it to have the best Kashmir he'd heard in person, so I thought I'd give it a go. I'm only on Nobody's Fault but I think so far I like Fort Worth more than Houston. Looking forward to what's ahead! Cheers Mate, ALB PS- Solid Pearl Jam ref. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo_fan Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 10 hours ago, AchillesLastBand said: Uhh I rather agree with you. I'd had Houston 5/21/77 for a while and enjoyed it, though found the sound a bit "harsh" compared to some of the other better-sounding '77s. The Rover (the guy) upthread commented that he considered it to have the best Kashmir he'd heard in person, so I thought I'd give it a go. I'm only on Nobody's Fault but I think so far I like Fort Worth more than Houston. Looking forward to what's ahead! Cheers Mate, ALB PS- Solid Pearl Jam ref. It's a great show. I ranked it seventh in my episode about the '77 tour back in July. That may have been a slight reach, but I certainly think it's 11th at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul carruthers Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 I think I've listened enough times to have 6/7/77 to have it in my top 5 from the whole tour. My favorite of the whole NY run at least (love TSRTS and Achilles)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketweaver Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 (edited) I gotta say, I've been in denial for the longest time. But Robert just didn't sound good anymore. People like to say, "oh he learned how to sing better though". But that's really not true. Listening to Going to California in 1977, a song which he sings low, he really sounds worse than 1971. I don't know why he stopped putting effort into his low notes from US 1972 onwards. His low register used to be so heavy and clear, and it had such body to it, and it was very bluesy. I don't think he ever really lost the ability, but for some reason he chose to sound very cheesy instead. Like he still wanted to sing his thin and high 72 style but with a much more nasally voice. The way he put effort into songs like That's the Way in 1971 Osaka, he sounded so sincere and so clear. Later on he sang it like some sort of lost old cheesy elf. I can't really explain what I mean but I'm sure some of you understand what I mean by cheesy. Oh and he decided to incorporate yelling those hard sounding "ooh" and "ooh baby" over and over with force. It really doesn't do much for me... I don't get why Robert just didn't sing verses in a lower register in some older material like he used to when they first came out. He could've sounded a lot better singing songs like SIBLY an octave lower like he actually used to in some verses. He did that a lot in 1970-71. I could learn to like the 1973 rasp. Actually I'm even quite fond of his July 1973 voice. Sometimes he sounded better than 1972. He sang with a lot of effort and emotion and it worked well. But 1977 onwards, even setting aside the changes in his voice, I really was not fond of his new style. He was either doing too much, being too lazy, or being too cheesy, it just didn't work for me. Edited May 1, 2021 by basketweaver added detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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