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Cozy 4ever

Does anyone have any controversial opinions about Zep?

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^The interplay between Bonham and Page is one of the strongest dynamics of the band. Of which there are so many.

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I hate the way women were treated; although that is something that the entire rock business was guilty of. The underlying air of violence is unsettling as well.

On the opinions regarding Mr Bonham. Many years ago I was in the company of two opera lovers who were arguing about Maria Callis. One stated she was average; the other stated that yes she was a shadow technically of many of her peers but she exuded feeling, passion and charisma all missing from the others.  

Mr Bonham had something special.  He shifted tone and genres in a single song making it sound natural. (Sorry I have no drumming experience to explain further)

Why did they not give Robert another 6 months to recover before recording Presence. I think his vocals show he is still suffering from the injuries and nowhere near his capabilities.

Also anyone who thinks Ringo cannot drum has never heard Rain.   

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While watching the R Kelly series,  I felt I couldn't get too judgmental about the underage 14 year old girl consensual sex aspect.  Sure made me queasy though.  

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2 hours ago, anniemouse said:

I hate the way women were treated; although that is something that the entire rock business was guilty of. The underlying air of violence is unsettling as well.

On the opinions regarding Mr Bonham. Many years ago I was in the company of two opera lovers who were arguing about Maria Callis. One stated she was average; the other stated that yes she was a shadow technically of many of her peers but she exuded feeling, passion and charisma all missing from the others.  

Mr Bonham had something special.  He shifted tone and genres in a single song making it sound natural. (Sorry I have no drumming experience to explain further)

Why did they not give Robert another 6 months to recover before recording Presence. I think his vocals show he is still suffering from the injuries and nowhere near his capabilities.

Also anyone who thinks Ringo cannot drum has never heard Rain.   

I think Plant's recovery would actually be much more important for the 1975 tour and I think it's especially important he would have a long break in autumn and winter 1972/73. I think the demand for concerts would only increase with a pause. Why they continued with such extreme vocal problems is beyond me.

It brings on some interesting new vocal approaches on Physical graffiti and later albums and his solo albums, but you can always approach it differently with your voice intact.

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4 hours ago, drpete said:

While watching the R Kelly series,  I felt I couldn't get too judgmental about the underage 14 year old girl consensual sex aspect.  Sure made me queasy though.  

I'm gonna go opposite on this one. Lori Maddox was already an established groupie by the time Page got hold of it. Sure, a relationship with a 14 yr old is questionable, but what about a 14 yr old who's probably screwed more people than you? Anyone ever interview her parents?

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8 hours ago, SamoKodela said:

However they also touched many other areas with their lyrics more then enough(and then Plant in his solo carrer even much more) and we all can and I can certainly relate to all above mentioned lyrical topics, I only can't relate to misogyny, but it's never like they bash women in general, they talk about specific women.

lol

Misogyny? Are you a feminist chick like Helen Reddy? You must be a millennial because guys from my generation didn't use the word misogyny. It's funny that you're all hung up on it too. lols

Ever notice the girls didn't mind Zeppelin's misogyny? You know, back in the day, they used to say male chauvinist pig. Think Maude or whoever. Now instead of male chauvinist pig, they say misogyny. I don't lose sleep over Zeppelin being male chauvinist pigs lols.

Time machine please - take me back to 1981.

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31 minutes ago, Christopher Lees said:

lol

Misogyny? Are you a feminist chick like Helen Reddy? You must be a millennial because guys from my generation didn't use the word misogyny. It's funny that you're all hung up on it too. lols

Ever notice the girls didn't mind Zeppelin's misogyny? You know, back in the day, they used to say male chauvinist pig. Think Maude or whoever. Now instead of male chauvinist pig, they say misogyny. I don't lose sleep over Zeppelin being male chauvinist pigs lols.

Time machine please - take me back to 1981.

Some did mind it, some didn't. As I said there isn't much of it in Zeppelin and even then it's not really aimed at all women. 

But no matter what, Zeppelin are not exactly Bob Dylan in terms of lyrics, but they are not bad either.

It's not like there is a perfect band, but I guess there are people that would like better lyrics from them, people who would like them to have more Beatles like melodies, people who would like to make their most musical and melodic elements sound less heavy and take away the fast technical stuff that they perceive as showing off and certainly there are people who would like to make the drums less heavy.

Those things were all revolutionary and some just couldn't accept them, mostly because they just didn't like those things and you can't please everybody, but it was unfair from a lot of the critics to dismiss them completely, just because they could have more or less of certain elements, overall they were really good.

As far as their lifestyle, that is something I wouldn't want to live at all and I'm quite sure many of the critics were also not even remotely interested in having what they had, except for some more money maybe.

Edited by SamoKodela

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Replace rock n roll with some other opener in 1975. Dump dazed and quarter and and play like 5 other songs. 1975 could have provided much more enjoyable set lists. Also dump the drum solo and replace with 3 other songs. Ahhhhhh that felt good. Sacraligous but good

Edited by NorthShoreBlues

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1 hour ago, Christopher Lees said:

lol

Misogyny? Are you a feminist chick like Helen Reddy? You must be a millennial because guys from my generation didn't use the word misogyny. It's funny that you're all hung up on it too. lols

Ever notice the girls didn't mind Zeppelin's misogyny? You know, back in the day, they used to say male chauvinist pig. Think Maude or whoever. Now instead of male chauvinist pig, they say misogyny. I don't lose sleep over Zeppelin being male chauvinist pigs lols.

Time machine please - take me back to 1981.

+1.  Whether it's music, sports, whatever, there is no shortage of women willing to throw themselves at men who have money or power.

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15 minutes ago, NorthShoreBlues said:

Replace rock n roll with some other opener in 1975. Dump dazed and quarter and and play like 5 other songs. 1975 could have provided much more enjoyable set lists. Also dump the drum solo and replace with 3 other songs. Ahhhhhh that felt good. Sacraligous but good

Finally a genuinely controversial statement.  Jettison NQ in '75?  No way.  Whatever problems the '75 tour had, NQ was always a highlight, in fact for many shows it was the only memorable part.  Also, the evolution of the song was fascinating.  Getting rid of it would have been a big mistake.

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2 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

+1.  Whether it's music, sports, whatever, there is no shortage of women willing to throw themselves at men who have money or power.

Not that many questioned hedonism in the seventies. I wonder who they will be throwing themselves at, when they will have no one to talk to them and comfort them, because extreme weather, drouts, floods and acid oceans will wash everything away, including extreme social injustice and mistreatments of various social groups.

 

Lets not get off topic.

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4 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Finally a genuinely controversial statement.  Jettison NQ in '75?  No way.  Whatever problems the '75 tour had, NQ was always a highlight, in fact for many shows it was the only memorable part.  Also, the evolution of the song was fascinating.  Getting rid of it would have been a big mistake.

Exactly! And you could mostly only replace it with songs, that were very hard to sing for Plant in 1975.

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As others have pointed out, I think they should have taken better care of their setlists from 75 onwards...NQ was awesome, but DAC felt tired and longwinded, nowhere near the 73 versions - I don't think there was any new ground to cover in the song improvisationally after July '73 and, since it's a live number dependent on freshness and vitality...they should have left it out. MD was always boring to me, so 75 is no exception. I get that Zep wanted a fair amount of songs that had the ability to change from show to show in order to keep things exciting, but Rover, Wanton Song, In The Light, Custard Pie...all these songs could easily be on the '75 setlist.

As for '77, well, what can you say. MD and the guitar solo were a huge waste of time...For Your Life should have been there, as well as some calmer numbers to assist Ten Years Gone, like Down By The Seaside or Night Flight...did the audience really need to hear them masturbate on their respective instruments?

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Yeah, not a lot of what has been posted in this thread is too controversial. Gripes which have been addressed ad nauseam in this and the other forum. Except, of course, the idea that Bonzo isn't a real drummer.

How about, accepting and enjoying LZ for what the band was and what they left behind, without caveats. Not as some fanboy rose-colored vision, but by experiencing the personal and professional triumphs and tragedies with the band through the music. Understanding that the band's evolution, through the changes life brings, wouldn't allow '75, '77 or '80 to sound like '71 or '73. Knowing missed notes and even off nights are to be expected when a band takes music and life to the nth degree. The human element, that's the magic ingredient in the continued interest with live recordings. It deserves to be embraced rather than scorned.

 

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29 minutes ago, Badgeholder Still said:

Yeah, not a lot of what has been posted in this thread is too controversial. Gripes which have been addressed ad nauseam in this and the other forum. Except, of course, the idea that Bonzo isn't a real drummer.

How about, accepting and enjoying LZ for what the band was and what they left behind, without caveats. Not as some fanboy rose-colored vision, but by experiencing the personal and professional triumphs and tragedies with the band through the music. Understanding that the band's evolution, through the changes life brings, wouldn't allow '75, '77 or '80 to sound like '71 or '73. Knowing missed notes and even off nights are to be expected when a band takes music and life to the nth degree. The human element, that's the magic ingredient in the continued interest with live recordings. It deserves to be embraced rather than scorned.

 

:goodpost:

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8 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Living Loving Maid is a better song than Heartbreaker. 

Oh no, now you're just trolling!

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6 hours ago, SamoKodela said:

Not that many questioned hedonism in the seventies. I wonder who they will be throwing themselves at, when they will have no one to talk to them and comfort them, because extreme weather, drouts, floods and acid oceans will wash everything away, including extreme social injustice and mistreatments of various social groups.

LOL!

LOL!

Come on dude, be serious. Let's get back on topic.

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6 hours ago, Doctor Jimmy said:

As others have pointed out, I think they should have taken better care of their setlists from 75 onwards...NQ was awesome, but DAC felt tired and longwinded, nowhere near the 73 versions - I don't think there was any new ground to cover in the song improvisationally after July '73 and, since it's a live number dependent on freshness and vitality...they should have left it out. MD was always boring to me, so 75 is no exception. I get that Zep wanted a fair amount of songs that had the ability to change from show to show in order to keep things exciting, but Rover, Wanton Song, In The Light, Custard Pie...all these songs could easily be on the '75 setlist.

As for '77, well, what can you say. MD and the guitar solo were a huge waste of time...For Your Life should have been there, as well as some calmer numbers to assist Ten Years Gone, like Down By The Seaside or Night Flight...did the audience really need to hear them masturbate on their respective instruments?

+1   I couldn't agree more.

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3 hours ago, Badgeholder Still said:

Not as some fanboy rose-colored vision, but by experiencing the personal and professional triumphs and tragedies with the band through the music.

A great point. The problem for me, and I suspect a lot of us, is that we started as fanboys many years (decades) ago and had a lot to overcome. My first Zeppelin tapes were the early ones, like 4, 2 and 1. Then I got Zeppelin 3 and rolled with those four for a while. At the same time, I picked up the BBC sessions (back in about 1988, before they were officially released) and marveled at how awesome they were live. It was well known even back then, and even at the wise old age of about 14, that bands used "studio tricks" to make their vocals sound good and so forth, so when I heard the BBC sessions live (both 69 and 71) I was officially blown away. Then I picked up Blueberry hill and Heartbreak Hotel and I was convinced that Zeppelin were superhuman. Finally, I got TSRTS and I was a little befuddled at how Plant couldn't sing Rock and Roll like he did on the album. I thought he sounding kinda bad really, but I got used to it and besides, the band was smoking. All of this is what caused me to be a true fanboy in my teen years.

Then I picked up Destroyer and Berlin 1980 and experienced some serious cognitive dissonance. For years I tried to find creative ways to rationalize the poor performances from 75-80. Eventually, I learned that there was no way to rationalize this and that drugs and unwise living had taken its toll. Simple as that. Now, so many years later, I'm at a point where I can look at the band as you said, without the fanboy rose-colored glasses and just see them for what they were, in reality. In "real" reality, and that actually adds a whole new mature dimension to my listening experience.

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8 hours ago, Christopher Lees said:

A great point. The problem for me, and I suspect a lot of us, is that we started as fanboys many years (decades) ago and had a lot to overcome. My first Zeppelin tapes were the early ones, like 4, 2 and 1. Then I got Zeppelin 3 and rolled with those four for a while. At the same time, I picked up the BBC sessions (back in about 1988, before they were officially released) and marveled at how awesome they were live. It was well known even back then, and even at the wise old age of about 14, that bands used "studio tricks" to make their vocals sound good and so forth, so when I heard the BBC sessions live (both 69 and 71) I was officially blown away. Then I picked up Blueberry hill and Heartbreak Hotel and I was convinced that Zeppelin were superhuman. Finally, I got TSRTS and I was a little befuddled at how Plant couldn't sing Rock and Roll like he did on the album. I thought he sounding kinda bad really, but I got used to it and besides, the band was smoking. All of this is what caused me to be a true fanboy in my teen years.

Then I picked up Destroyer and Berlin 1980 and experienced some serious cognitive dissonance. For years I tried to find creative ways to rationalize the poor performances from 75-80. Eventually, I learned that there was no way to rationalize this and that drugs and unwise living had taken its toll. Simple as that. Now, so many years later, I'm at a point where I can look at the band as you said, without the fanboy rose-colored glasses and just see them for what they were, in reality. In "real" reality, and that actually adds a whole new mature dimension to my listening experience.

1969-1973 no heavy drugs, 1973-1980 everything that could be swallowed, sniffed, injected or smoked. I only listen live Led Zepp from 1969-1973. Shame about their performance from 1975-1980, as my fav album is Physical Graffiti. But that's what we got.

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21 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Finally a genuinely controversial statement.  Jettison NQ in '75?  No way.  Whatever problems the '75 tour had, NQ was always a highlight, in fact for many shows it was the only memorable part.  Also, the evolution of the song was fascinating.  Getting rid of it would have been a big mistake.

My grandmother gave me a Rachmaninoff record that year. After a while I decided I did not like the sound of the sustain pedal being down all the time. I disapprove of grand piano with Zep. 1975 and 77 tours remind me of the Rachmaninoff fad of the mid 70s.

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19 minutes ago, LurksReturnington said:

My grandmother gave me a Rachmaninoff record that year. After a while I decided I did not like the sound of the sustain pedal being down all the time. I disapprove of grand piano with Zep. 1975 and 77 tours remind me of the Rachmaninoff fad of the mid 70s.

It got a little too much like ELP and Rick Wakemen during those segments.  Eliminating 15 min from Dazed and NQ and the entire 30 of Moby and replacing it with an hour of 5 other songs would have been preferred. But I guess they all need a BREAK as the show went on

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31 minutes ago, drpete said:

It got a little too much like ELP and Rick Wakemen during those segments.  

Not really to my ears.  Wakeman was mostly flash and there was alot of ELP that was flash.  The reason I really like the 75 NQ is that Zep really improvised and created new music every night.  You never knew what would happen.  And it was not just the keyboards going wild.  All three of them were improvising together.  It was one of the things that made Zep special.  I don't recall Yes or ELP really doing that type of thing.  As much as I enjoy the 73 and early 75  NQ, I think the grand piano brought a whole new element to the proceedings.  Jones went through many moods and styles, yes including Romantic music but also jazz. 

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