Dharmabum Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 We all know Led Zeppelin was all about improvisational jams with songs reaching into the 40 minute range during the mid-70s. But I don't often hear Led Zeppelin described as a "jam-band," which typically includes The Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers Band, and more recently, Phish, String-Cheese Incident, etc. Any thoughts on this? What seperates a band-that-jams from a jam-band?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Historian Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 We all know Led Zeppelin was all about improvisational jams with songs reaching into the 40 minute range during the mid-70s. But I don't often hear Led Zeppelin described as a "jam-band," which typically includes The Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers Band, and more recently, Phish, String-Cheese Incident, etc. Any thoughts on this? What seperates a band-that-jams from a jam-band?! Absolutely- I think they were. Maybe not on record, but live they extended many songs because of the instrumental segments. Just take Dazed and Confused for instance. Average 20 minutes in length live compared to 6 1/2 on record. But I guess the term is directed more to bands that have longer songs with less words and much more of the music.??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpat Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 We all know Led Zeppelin was all about improvisational jams with songs reaching into the 40 minute range during the mid-70s. But I don't often hear Led Zeppelin described as a "jam-band," which typically includes The Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers Band, and more recently, Phish, String-Cheese Incident, etc. Any thoughts on this? What seperates a band-that-jams from a jam-band?! I think non-American bands seem to have a thing about NOT being known as a "jam band" ... a majority of them consider it "wanking off," with wanking meaning What You Think It Means. Zeppelin did jam, but (I'm gonna get slammed for this) it did not seem to me so much improv as the bands you mention, as Zep's jams were somewhat standard with slight variations every night (for example, listen to Dazed and Confused through 1971-1975, or even Moby Dick. No Quarter usually displayed the most improvisation). Granted, those jams were Awesome!! While we're on the subject, here's a old joke for you: Q. Why did the Grateful Dead have two drummers? A. In case one of them fell asleep. P.S.: One of Jimmy's earliest guitar techs in Zep was known as Joe Jammer (Wright). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieshoes Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 It's all in the labeling and the genres. Many of the reviews of Zeppelin's live act in 1969 referred to the band as having been "Acid Rock". In the mid-70's it was all about the "Heavy Metal" label. Today those two terms have completely different meanings. For the past ten years Zep has been commonly referred to as having been "Hard Rock". The phrase "Jam Band" has a very distinct connotation, and is directly associated with the acts who make up that "sub-genre" of rock music. The Dead, String Cheese, Phish, Dave Matthews, Blues Traveler. Whether they play long solos or not, or whether they even know how to "jam" at all, whatever that means. Zeppelin was never considered a "Jam Band", because they weren't. Zep didn't invent the concept of extending songs into 20 minute solos. Bands like Cream had already paved the way for that back in 1966. And obviously bands like the Dead were playing at similar lengths. But so was Ravi Shankar, and so were many jazz bands out there at the time. But you'd never go and call Zep a jazz band, right? Just like you'd never call the Dead a heavy metal band. Everyone has their own label. Was Zep a Jam Band? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharmabum Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Just found an interesting article on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_band From one perspective, the general one, I think you can consider Zeppelin a jam-band in the sense of the following definition: "What Is a Jam Band? Please cast aside any preconceptions that this phrase may evoke. The term, as it is commonly used today, references a rich palette of sounds and textures. These groups share a collective penchant for improvisation, a commitment to songcraft and a propensity to cross genre boundaries, drawing from a range of traditions including blues, bluegrass, funk, jazz, rock, psychedelia and even techno. In addition, the jam bands of today are unified by the nimble ears of their receptive listeners." - Budnick, co-created of Jammy Awards, 2000 From another perspective, the specific one, Zeppelin are not in the same 'lineage' of rock as The Grateful Dead and the subsequent bands typically identified as jam bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 While Zeppelin did indeed expand Dazed and Confused and No Quarter (Frankly I'd put As Long As I Have You at the top of their jam list), they didn't center around the jam. The Dead, Phish, etc used songs as a springboard to go somewhere else with the focus being on somewhere else. Zeppelin may have grown the songs outward, but they pretty much went down the same road every night within them. If that makes any sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Masson Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I agree that LZ's improvisational jams were more of a structured thing than is the case with some of the American "jam" bands. They would use more or less the same set list throughout a tour - the variations are very slight compared with many other bands - and the majority of the songs were performed in much the same manner, at least throughout each tour. So what you have is improvisations within certain songs, and with lots of stable reference points - if Jimmy played a certain chord, the others would know right away where he is headed, even within a jam. And another thing they did to structure the jams was of course using medleys and quotes, which suited them perfectly. It was particularly good for Jimmy who is very basically a rockabilly player. I am not sure their more structured approach came from a reluctance to sound like any American band out there. My impression is that this came at least partly from observing the limits of extended free jams like Cream would do, where of course the musicianship was great, but the jams still don't really sound too interesting. One thing that you can note with Cream is that both Ginger Baker and Jack Bruce were used to playing "free" complicated jazz, and so they tend to leave less room for Clapton, who would get slightly repetitive. In a famed article in one of the first issues of Rolling Stone this was construed as showing the limitations of Clapton, which hurt him greatly. I think what it really showed was the limitations of the band's way of going about the jams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledrim Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Some excellent points. The fact that we can have a discussion about them being a Jam band helps explain what separates them from just about any other band. They cold Jam, but unlike most Jam bands they had the ability to compose and play songs that were radio friendly. I would say that the '77 version of NQ probably had the most free-form jams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Some excellent points. The fact that we can have a discussion about them being a Jam band helps explain what separates them from just about any other band. They cold Jam, but unlike most Jam bands they had the ability to compose and play songs that were radio friendly. I would say that the '77 version of NQ probably had the most free-form jams. Just listen to the different versions from their six show run from the L.A. Forum. The jams are all quite different from each night, but based around the same structure to extend out from. The lengths also vary quite a bit from night to night. I personally feel it would be hard to top the version from the 23rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 While Zeppelin did indeed expand Dazed and Confused and No Quarter (Frankly I'd put As Long As I Have You at the top of their jam list), they didn't center around the jam. The Dead, Phish, etc used songs as a springboard to go somewhere else with the focus being on somewhere else. Zeppelin may have grown the songs outward, but they pretty much went down the same road every night within them. If that makes any sense! Totally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longdistancewinner Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I think non-American bands seem to have a thing about NOT being known as a "jam band" ... a majority of them consider it "wanking off," with wanking meaning What You Think It Means. What? Can you explain what you mean by this? I've never heard the term 'Jam band' be referred to as 'wanking off'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharmabum Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 What? Can you explain what you mean by this? I've never heard the term 'Jam band' be referred to as 'wanking off'. I think 'wanking off' would more directly refer to extended soloing. A musical jam typically involves multiple musicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonman74 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I think that LZ cannot be put into any one category.Which is a testament to their musical genius.Was Led Zep a jam band .yes.While most bands can be put into a category ,Zep was multidiminsional.Zep could jam ,play just like the album,improvise,or just do a totally different version of a song,or solo.etc.Zep was hard rock ,heavy metal ,rockabilly,country ,bluegrass,blues,jazz ,acid rock all rolled into one.and it sounded great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I think 'wanking off' would more directly refer to extended soloing. A musical jam typically involves multiple musicians. I think wanking applies to the audience member's liking or disliking of soloing. I ain't a wank (redundant noodling) if you're digging it! Although I do think that if you have a liquid light show behind the band, they're probably a jam band! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trm989 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Not really. Most of their "jams" were pre-rehearsed connected sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 We all know Led Zeppelin was all about improvisational jams with songs reaching into the 40 minute range during the mid-70s. But I don't often hear Led Zeppelin described as a "jam-band," which typically includes The Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers Band, and more recently, Phish, String-Cheese Incident, etc. Any thoughts on this? What seperates a band-that-jams from a jam-band?! As others have noted, when Zeppelin "jammed" it was somewhat more structured even though they extended the songs and definitely improvised. I would never confuse a Zep "jam" with one from from say, the Grateful Dead, Widespread Panic, Phish, the Allman Brothers Band, etc. As for "wanking", some bands are certainly guilty of that. I guess another term would be pointless noodling. On some nights a band like the Grateful Dead could take you on a breathtaking musical journey. On others they went absolutely nowhere. It was always a highwire act with them which is the true beauty of the Grateful Dead, they weren't afraid to fail. That's why so many don't even come close to touching them in the live band department. When they were firing on all cylinders and locked in, they were one of the very best live bands on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie29 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Jam, improvisation. Semantics. Some bands do it well, some not so. Zeppelin falls under the former, as for the latter, well on any given show that could vary. I've never heard a bad Zeppelin show (the errors were part of the attraction), only bad recordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purps Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 We all know Led Zeppelin was all about improvisational jams with songs reaching into the 40 minute range during the mid-70s. But I don't often hear Led Zeppelin described as a "jam-band," which typically includes The Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers Band, and more recently, Phish, String-Cheese Incident, etc. Any thoughts on this? What seperates a band-that-jams from a jam-band?! Look at the era and bands that came from that era, Led Zep, Purple, turning 6 minute songs into 20-30 minute sesions of great musicianship. Drum solo's that go for 10-15 minutes and guitar improv. Bring it back I say bands these daze are to affraid to stretch out and do their thing IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 While much of the Zep show was pretty tightly structured when it came to there "jamming" I'd say that in the early years they were actually alot more free than the likes of The Dead, Allmans etc. Those bands jams tended to consist of one or more memebers soloing to a preset theme where as with Zep the theme itself was often improvised. On tracks like HMMT, CB, DAC, WLL etc you'd often have one memeber start with an improvsed riff/ryhmn/melody then the rest quickly following with there own contributions. I was listening to 29/9/71 last night and the "pennies from heaven" section of DAC plus the jam at the end of CB are great example of that, unique bits of music that go beyond just soloing created on the spot. I'd say that Zep were actually closer to a band like Can with there "instant composition" than the typical jam band of the era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I've never heard a bad Zeppelin show (the errors were part of the attraction), only bad recordings. I've definitely heard some Zeppelin shows where the band was not in synch. Just like any artist that's willing to go out on a limb, you're going to have nights where you shine and others where you falter. Comes with the territory, particularly if you're an artist that likes to take chances. Look at the era and bands that came from that era, Led Zep, Purple, turning 6 minute songs into 20-30 minute sesions of great musicianship. Drum solo's that go for 10-15 minutes and guitar improv. Bring it back I say bands these daze are to affraid to stretch out and do their thing IMO That's part of the excessive side of rock n' roll that punk artists were skewering in the late 70s and early 80s (and for good reason); the obligatory drum, keyboard, guitar, etc. solos. I can't say I miss it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danelectro Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I think many a Zep fan confuses Zep's different arrangemets of songs, necessitated by being able to play the song live, for improvisation. I don't doubt that they improvised and jammed here and there but the massive amount of bootleg material out there shows once a song had a live arrangement they were pretty true to it. Even the medleys had structure and repetition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ro_a Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I'm glad LZ is being brought up in this context, as hackey sack hippie rock seems to own the term "jam band". Phish comes to mind. Grrr.. A jam band is one with long songs that are a little (or a lot) different every night. The Ahmet had only 2 songs under 5 minutes. The only one that didn't have an improv/jam section was Kashmir. That makes LZ a jam band fer sure. We could use a head jam band now, minus the hippy dippy funk. I'm thinking like Boards of Canada, but heavier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross62 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Of course Led Zeppelin were a jam band,it plays out all through the recordings,official and boots.They 'played' with their music everytime they performed,and since 'jamming' or to 'jam' means,loosely to play,practise or perform music,just about every band who can elongate a song or continue the jam/jive/boogie/waltz does it. I think they tried to do it a little bit different every night,they knew what worked,and they knew what to save and perform later,differently again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djzoso Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 does it really matter led zeppelin was like every other bands the allmans, grateful dead and many more were just bands making music jam band or not zeppelin made beautiful effing music dont matter if its 30 mins long or 2 mins long its all just great music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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